rwmindy

I have spent a lot of time pulling together information regarding the use of antique trucks as a hobby and all the potential license & regulation issues one might need to address. Here is my summary of findings for others looking to find similar data. There are far more experienced people then me with these topics, so hopefully they can add color where they agree or disagree. My intent is to pull together the "collective" information I have found on-line, on the ATHS boards, within my local chapter, within the US DOT, conversations with insurance companies, my BMV, training companies, and various local government sites. Others can add their everyday practical experience to the mix. By no means, is this meant to be the bible over such issues but hopefully saves some people some time looking for similar information. Summary: The first thing to understand about these topics is there are no "clear" answers when it comes to antique trucks. There is no one approach or one solution that everyone agrees "meets the requirements" for every situation and state. Regulations vary by state, and frankly, can vary by the DOT officer you might happen to meet on the highway. So, if you want perfectly clear answers that work every time and everywhere, you probably picked the wrong hobby. Also, if you want to receive lots of opinions that differ, open up a subject along any of these lines. That being said, some things do appear to make the most sense for most situations. Class A CDL License: In short, get one. Not only is it a great idea to learn something about these large vehicles prior to driving them regularly, most states and most highway officers will "expect" someone driving such a vehicle to have a proper license if it looks just like a commercial truck regardless of the type of plate you are using. I know the ATHS has posted many letters for various states stating the need for a CDL is waived for antique trucks, but this waiver can be contested by any officer on the highway and you will need to fight that ticket in a court potentially miles and miles away from your home. Especially if you plan to travel across state lines, it is just best to have a Class A CDL. Lastly, getting a CDL will provide you tons of information you can leverage in the hobby. Using a private CDL trainer to prep you for your CDL skills exam appears to be the best approach. The large commercial trucking schools are built to get you placed into a commercial truck driving job, not just to train you for a CDL. You can download many study aides to pass the written portion of the test (so no class / instructor is needed for this first part). To be fully covered, get the general, air brake, and combo endorsements and go for a Class A CDL. If you have a love of trucks, you should love getting the training for your CDL, just consider it part of the hobby investment. DOT Regulations & State Fuel Stickers (non-weigh station related): In short, all US DOT & state (department of transportation) regulations (log book, DOT #, pre-trip & post trip regs, trip permits, fuel stickers, etc.) are prefaced on being a truck used in commerce. If you are not involved in any form of commerce with your truck, these regulations do not apply. It is up to the DOT office in the state you are passing through to enforce the DOT regulations, therefore, making the case you are not involved in any form of commerce must be clear to a wide range of potential interested parties. States can get very "aggressive" in determining your activity has some commerce connection. Therefore, pulling race cars to an event where prize money could be involved, truck shows with prize money, selling antique trucks that are on the trailer, showing any form of corporate sponsorship on the truck (promotion), pulling horses you commonly sell, etc., can all be tied to the commerce clause in any given state. Therefore, it is critical if you do not comply with all the DOT regulations you remove any form of commerce connection to your truck and your activity. When asked, you must have your story completely straight with the clear indication "My driving this truck serves ZERO commercial interest. This truck is not involved in any form of commerce and is just being used as part of my personal hobby". "Not for Hire" is a term used often by "For Hire" trucks when making "Not for Hire" legs or by private trucks that still have some underlying commercial purpose but are not hired out to other companies (i.e. promotional trucks). Therefore, be careful with this designation. It is better to make it clear the truck is never used in commerce then it is to make the argument this particular leg of a trip is "not for hire". "Not for Hire" does not mean the truck has no commercial connection. The later is what you need to prove or be prepared to argue if you want to bypass all DOT requirements. I would recommend the following magnetic sign on the door of the truck (or something similar): Private Antique Truck No Commerce Involved (Personal Use Only) CDL Licensed Driver Weigh Stations: On the whole, just go through them (i.e. do not try and pass by them). Some will specifically call out "commercial vehicles" which might provide you some reason to pass. However, most just call out just a weight criteria. From everything I have read and discussed, it is best just to go through the station. Virtually all the time, upon seeing your setup, they will waive you through. The irony is, sometimes, they might even yell out you for going through (such is our system of government and the variance between operators in the states). However, on the whole, you are more likely to have a side of the road conversation with a patrol car if you pass by then if you pass through. If they are yelling at you to keep moving, at least they keep you moving. Type of Plate: There are really three possible outcomes for your plate decision and all vary by state (potentially greatly) in terms of underlying criteria. You can put on regular truck plates, antique truck plates, and potentially RV plates. Unfortunately, all come with some potential issues. I have more data on Indiana here because that is my focus area. This one, I am afraid, needs local support to get right. However, as a general rule: Regular truck plates give you the potential broadest use of the vehicle with least restrictions. However, it also makes you a prime target for appearing to be a vehicle used in commerce (see above). They are also the most expensive. In fact, some will argue you can only use a regular commercial plate if you are involved in commerce; therefore, this decision becomes mutually exclusive to deciding not to follow DOT regulations in the eyes of some states. Frankly, it is a mess. The reality is if you put a regular truck plate on your antique truck, you should probably be prepared to follow all the DOT regulations depending on your state. Frankly, the commercial truck plate will probably make your non-commerce argument all the more tenuous (but not impossible). The upside being, within the DOT regulations, you can use your truck for most anything. Antique truck plates vary greatly by state in terms of restrictions. Some states will refuse to provide them for vehicles over a certain weight. Some provide them, but they come with lots of restrictions in terms of use. This is where you need to understand your state requirements the most. Often, if you can get them, they are the best plate for your truck because it indicates to most third parties you are a non-commerce related truck and gives you more support for not following all the DOT regulations. You just have to decide if you can live with your state specific restrictions (or, more likely, accept the lack of enforcement of most of these restrictions). Indiana, from everything I can find, does not highly limit the use of an antique truck plated vehicle. However, you might need the local support of the ATHS.ORG groups to get it registered because some BMVs will argue a weight limit for the truck. However, most members have gotten past this issue. So, for Indiana, this appears to be the best route. RV plates are also an option. Once again, every state will have its own criteria for what they consider an "RV". Some allow just about anything and some have a 4 or 5 point requirements check list. You just need to research it and make sure your truck follows the criteria. Some have had great success with RV plates because they rarely come with use restrictions and they have clear exemptions in most state regulations. However, I have heard several stories of local DOT enforcement officers literally "ripping up" your RV registration and calling it a farce because the truck appears commercial (i.e. they contest the registration). Therefore, even getting these plates can cause some states to "question" you because they feel you are "pulling a fast one". So, it comes with its' own unique risks & problems even if you qualify in your state (especially if the truck is only mildly modified to meet the criteria). Again, in the worse case, if you have an officer that decides to fight the registration, you can probably win it back in traffic court, but it might be a long way from home to do it. Overall, picking the right plate can be a real mess. Learn your state rules, talk to your local chapter of the ATHS or ATCA, and they can guide you to the best answer. Insurance: There are two basic approaches to insurance. You can go the "collector" insurance route or regular truck insurance route. Again, different insurance companies will treat your vehicle differently, so the "regular truck" route must be researched with your insurance company. The two main collector insurance companies that appear to be used are Hagerty and Gulfway. I am sure there are more, but these come up the most when discussing antique truck insurance. The main difference is Hagerty will only allow towing if you get a "special" exception approved by the underwriters and the criteria is very strict (matching antique car, etc.). Some say you cannot get it all through Hagerty (which is not the case), it is just very restrictive and limited. Therefore, most have not gotten towing coverage through Hagerty. Gulfway will cover a trailer & towing insured by them but excludes travel trailers from their tow list (so you can pull a historic truck trailer, but not your RV travel trailer). You might be able to tow an antique travel trailer, but I have not tried that approach with them yet. Frankly, I find both were very restrictive, but also relatively cheap. If you can live with the restrictions, they are a very good option. Regular truck insurance can be a hornets’ nest with your insurance company, but often leads to the most flexible and useful coverage. It will probably be more expensive. It is very much worth your time to work through your regular insurance company if you want lots of latitude in your use and towing. Be sure to let them know if you plan on having antique plates on the truck because that might affect their insurance options. Frustrating, but some might not take your truck with antique plates, which causes a terrible ripple effect to get the insurance you need (i.e. might need regular truck plates, which brings potential DOT problems, etc.). If this is the case, getting the best towing coverage via a collector insurance company might be the best approach and compromise. Lastly: The best combination of title, license, plate, insurance, DOT compliance, etc., is more complex than any hobby should demand, but, unfortunately, it reflects the hobby we have selected. For a specific state, and a specific usage goal, a formula can always be created that provides the best possible compliance and coverage at a reasonable investment of time and money. In the end, you should not underestimate the potential need for "people skills" to work your way through this process and through a potential traffic stop should it occur under the best of circumstances. After all, antique trucks are still a people business

Thought I would share these pictures of an old White truck turned into a hot rod. Very strange! I have no idea about the specs on the truck, it is for sale in Peoria, IL and my father in law just took a few photos. Seeing the 4 stacks, I am not thinking this was just for show... there is probably some go here as well.

It appears switching to an Allison will be a major re-think of the engine / tranny / rears / mounting locations / etc. The good news is, all options are still possible because the truck has not even been torn down yet. Hopefully I will have a direction for the entire drive line in the next 3-4 weeks. I would not attempt anything this ambitious on my own.

Ok Tony, now I see you want to win the "slow truck" H drag race because "first to street" award in the H series show down is in jeopardy given my potential outsourcing plan Just remember, however, when you are trying to grab about 10 double clutch shifts in this thing to get out of the hole worrying you might grenade the tranny, I might just be pressing the accelerator and letting the magic of Allison run right past you regardless of how many horses you squeeze under your cab! Sure, I am a wimp thinking about an Allison (this is for the general board audience - Tony supports the 'the title is in your name - do what you want plan'), but I will be a wimp with a smile during the "slow truck" H drag race I bet.

Yup. The 5 sp. is certainly on the list of possibles (and a good one). I am just seeing how far I might be able to take it... with the Allison being a possible consideration. $$ is expected. However, at this point, I am not even sure what would work (especially using a Mack engine).

Hi, Was wondering if anyone had success getting an older Mack engine to work with an Allison auto in a B or H model truck? Wondering if there are proven combos of the two that are out there working in one of these older trucks. If so, just curious what the engine / tranny model that worked and how much fabrication was needed to get it to happen! Thanks! Rob p.s. Yes, I am considering making a "lazy man" model out of my H series. Love the look and want to restore to original appearance but might put a modern drive train under her to make it a real easy hauler for the family. This is just data gathering.

Very nice. There appears to have been a few years in the early thirties where many brewing companies started producing streamlined versions of their delivery trucks. I am guessing someone grabbed some attention with one and, as many industries go, competitors started copying the effort. I am also guessing the war came and this came to an abrupt stop. By the time we exit the war, art deco has passed and the streamliner look disappears. There appears to be very few of the streamliner beer trucks left around. However, they are awesome. What a collection this would make for some crazy person. Wait a second, I am a crazy person :-) I mean a crazy, wealthy person. For this collection, I am guessing just crazy will not get it done.

Big Dog you inspired me to look further. Labatt's is "da bomb" in streamliners. Here are some more photos. Of course, now I am hooked. First one to find a Streamliner not restored... I am buyer

Well done! Like the new look and several things already appear easier to do!

Perhaps one of our Canadian members could locate one of these trucks! They need to see the road again. I personally feel these could be the "Duesenbergs" of antique trucks. However, more rare. People love the art deco period... and these trucks capture the spirit of that period as well as anything else out there.

Jim, just wanted to pass along my quick "wow". What a great job. Fantastic. Of course, having done nothing but purchase a truck needing everything, I am not sure such compliments come with much weight as compared to others around this board. However, I offer them none the less. -Rob

It merged into another brewing company that then disappeared... so I lost the trail. However, another streamlined trailer was found in the hunt. Boy, these Canadian brewing companies were on it in terms of style...

Wow. Talk about your white whales. I would love to find / see this classic Mack. Does this truck still exist? If not, what a barn find this would be! Of course, restoration cost would be hard to calculate. Given there were only 123 EC trucks built in the first place and probably only one was streamlined. The Mack 1937 EC Streamlined

Fantastic. I will absolutely reach out to them.

Thanks Keith. I really appreciate the offer. I was literally coming to this listing to provide an update. The truck is taking a detour to a potential restoration business. They will be picking it up. So it looks like the next trip for the truck will be covered. Again, thanks, and sorry I missed the update prior to your post. -Rob

Thanks Dave! I really appreciate the literature piece. I found a brochure in the Wiki as well. -Rob

I am looking for transport options for my newly acquired 1962 Mack H-67. It is not a runner. However, complete and rolls. (engine froze). Trucks is located in: Union, NH 03887 (about 1.5 hours north of Boston Ma) And needs to go to: Carmel, Indiana 46032 (just North of Indianapolis, IN) I have 3-6 weeks to pull this together. Thanks! Rob

Large and proud. This simply is a clear sign we have mastered the food chain. In nature, that is called total victory. I will be trying to figure out how to move the seat back in the H-67 for a reason as well. Rob, it might be a nice family truck when we are done for you.

Thanks. Consider this one added to the project to do list.

Thanks Rob & Paul. First question asked, first I do not know! So, 0 for 1. Paul, will check. Is this something to look for / value / avoid / replace / or just curious? Rim questions are new for me.

Hi! I am very excited. I closed the deal on the 1962 Mack H-67. Bill is going to supply the truck with a clean title from New Hampshire. So, the first step is complete (probably the easiest)... I have a truck! I remember the old saying about boat ownership: "The happiest day in every boat owners life is the day they buy their boat and the day they sell their boat". I am sure the same might be said for these projects... but at least today can still be one of the happiest days. I also managed to recruit my brother in this effort. So now, two of us are on the hook to get this project completed. The goal is have something to show in South Bend next year. It might not be perfect, but we want to see something running. Mike is my brother, he will be joining the forum soon. We are excited to get started. Lots and lots of work ahead. Much we might outsource (body work in Indy anyone?). However, the goal is to see this H-67 ride proud once again in 2011. Thanks for all the early help. It has been awesome. -Rob More pictures in my gallery.