Oil Bath Vs. Dry Air?

[randyp]

My 61B has a natural aspirated engine with oil bath air cleaner, anybody got any ideas if a dry air would be morre efficient power wise, pull more air for more power, not really that concerned aboout the filtering part, any opinions?

[Freightrain]

Unless I get a dry element really cheap.........I'm sticking with my oil bath. It made it 50yrs the way it was built so I don't think it's a big problem.

Couple years back I took my whole unit to buddy's machine shop and had it caustic dipped. Perfectly clean, put new paint on it and it should be good to go for a long time.

[m5040]

The paper elements are basicly for the efficiency, they are like 99% compared to 80% for oilbath. So with the oil bath, 20% of the grit is getting into your engine's cylinder and wearing the rings. Not good for power. Otherwise, genericly speaking, the higher the horsepower engine, the more CFM it needs and the larger the aircleaner. If you notice some of the over the road tractors have dual outside aircleaners, like for the old KTA600 Cummins. So if you find a filter with a larger diameter outlet, or rated for a higher HP engine, you might get a little extra HP from better air flow.

Oh and the 80% efficiency, is only at high RPM. At idle and low r's, it lets more dirt through. This is because the low airflow is not splashing the oil up onto the wire mesh inside the filter.

[randyp]

The paper elements are basicly for the efficiency, they are like 99% compared to 80% for oilbath. So with the oil bath, 20% of the grit is getting into your engine's cylinder and wearing the rings. Not good for power. Otherwise, genericly speaking, the higher the horsepower engine, the more CFM it needs and the larger the aircleaner. If you notice some of the over the road tractors have dual outside aircleaners, like for the old KTA600 Cummins. So if you find a filter with a larger diameter outlet, or rated for a higher HP engine, you might get a little extra HP from better air flow.

Oh and the 80% efficiency, is only at high RPM. At idle and low r's, it lets more dirt through. This is because the low airflow is not splashing the oil up onto the wire mesh inside the filter.

Thanks M and Freight, appreciate you thoughts on that, my 61 has valve for summer intake and winter intake, kinda thinking dry filter with scoop on top instead of bonnet, get me some airflow going when im at warp speed on 58.216 MPH. LOL. I hate to change anything from stock though, just like the old school look. (The 58.216 MPH is with cetane boost and everything in my favor)

[Mike]

My 61B has a natural aspirated engine with oil bath air cleaner, anybody got any ideas if a dry air would be morre efficient power wise, pull more air for more power, not really that concerned aboout the filtering part, any opinions?

Hello,

I believe I can be of some help to you. I have the original oil bath air cleaner as well on my B61 673P engine. With the oil bath you are not buying air filters, just cleaning a pan with oil and back flushing the dirt from the metal gause type filteration material. I used to find older cars and trucks had these filters and were a great system. Drawbacks were they were larger bulky filters and you had to put fresh oil inside the pan, meaning you got your hands dirty.

Later vehicles have the dry filters. They are still large but you only have to change the dry filter element costing you money that you could have to buy more cigars and beer etc. etc. .....As for getting more air for an naturaly aspirated engine of anykind, you have to open up the cylinder heads, ports, polish etc. big cam for a better profile, depends on what you are going to do with that engine. As for me, I would not change a thing but getr cleaned up and enjoy the exhaust music and watch the heads turn when you go down the boulevard.

MACK FOREVER.......YEA!!!!!!

mike

[vanscottbuilders]

Mike is right - the only way to get more air into a normally aspirated engine is to create more vacuum

and/or more cylinder head volume, or pressure to compress that air, or create a denser charge of air

(via cool can etc.). The engine is getting all the air it can take in right now, unless there is an obstruction

in the intake system. Simply adding a lower restriction air cleaner would probably not make a measurable difference.

Turbocharging is a wonderful addition to a diesel engine, because you gain the flexibility of adding more charge air and force-feeding the engine under pressure.

Unfortunately, you are stuck with a whopping 170 or so raging Mack ponies - and they only have one speed! And it ain't exactly a gallop.

Our company motto is "Old, Slow Trucks - even Slower, Older Drivers"

Welcome to the club. I think it's pretty cool that you are actually using the old B model to move your equipment.

Paul Van Scott

[randyp]

Hello,

I believe I can be of some help to you. I have the original oil bath air cleaner as well on my B61 673P engine. With the oil bath you are not buying air filters, just cleaning a pan with oil and back flushing the dirt from the metal gause type filteration material. I used to find older cars and trucks had these filters and were a great system. Drawbacks were they were larger bulky filters and you had to put fresh oil inside the pan, meaning you got your hands dirty.

Later vehicles have the dry filters. They are still large but you only have to change the dry filter element costing you money that you could have to buy more cigars and beer etc. etc. .....As for getting more air for an naturaly aspirated engine of anykind, you have to open up the cylinder heads, ports, polish etc. big cam for a better profile, depends on what you are going to do with that engine. As for me, I would not change a thing but getr cleaned up and enjoy the exhaust music and watch the heads turn when you go down the boulevard.

MACK FOREVER.......YEA!!!!!!

mike

Thanks Mike, yeah ive cleaned many a oil bath filter, kinda messy, saw ad in B-store for retro dry type and just got to wondering a little about efficiency differences, power and all, (my mind wanders a lot). I dont really think I could make myself harm one little strand inside that cute lil stock original critter, gook and all. Besides, I wouldnt want to set off the "Check Engine " light ro risk failing an "emissions" test,,,heh,,,heh ( 8 words back is posed to be or instead of ro ) Thanks for info,,now i will have more money for snuff and root beer,,,having a mack attack now,,,gotta go drive,,later,,Randy

[Rob]

(The 58.216 MPH is with cetane boost and everything in my favor)

Damn, just thinking of that blistering speed makes my eyes water from the imaginary windblast.

Rob

[randyp]

Mike is right - the only way to get more air into a normally aspirated engine is to create more vacuum

and/or more cylinder head volume, or pressure to compress that air, or create a denser charge of air

(via cool can etc.). The engine is getting all the air it can take in right now, unless there is an obstruction

in the intake system. Simply adding a lower restriction air cleaner would probably not make a measurable difference.

Turbocharging is a wonderful addition to a diesel engine, because you gain the flexibility of adding more charge air and force-feeding the engine under pressure.

Unfortunately, you are stuck with a whopping 170 or so raging Mack ponies - and they only have one speed! And it ain't exactly a gallop.

Our company motto is "Old, Slow Trucks - even Slower, Older Drivers"

Welcome to the club. I think it's pretty cool that you are actually using the old B model to move your equipment.

Paul Van Scott

Thanks Paul, Yeah, its kinda gotten to where i would rather move dozer than run it,,wifey cant understand that,,brought it home the other evening,,wife said "finished that job in one day?" I said no,,was worried bout leaving tractor overnight, taking it back in the morning,,rolled her eyes,,she knows me like a book. I told her im saving gas in my pickup though, technically i am if i dont drive it and take the "B". Thanks Paul,,I qualify for your company motto,,,later. Randy

Edited August 17, 2009 by randyp

[randyp]

Damn, just thinking of that blistering speed makes my eyes water from the imaginary windblast.

Rob

Rob,,,I wear leather helmet and goggles for windblast,,,its the G-forces that bother me. I said "forces" Rob not spot.later,,Randy

[Rob]

Rob,,,I wear leather helmet and goggles for windblast,,,its the G-forces that bother me. I said "forces" Rob not spot.later,,Randy

I have a 58 B-61ST, perfect running 170 Thermodyne, triplex with 5.02 rears, and speaking of moving dozers: I have a friend that picks new dozers up from E. Peoria, IL and hauls them to his yard. He works for Daily Express and they move a lot of them as does Keen Trucking across the street. There was a new D-10 setting on his beam trailer with the cab off, but complete otherwise including a three tooth ripper on the back. I backed my B61 under and hitched up, waited for the air to build to move and did not have enough power to get 10 miles per hour in about 1000'. I was able to upshift two gears, (auxilary only) and had not run up against the governor before running out of room before needing to turn though. The lot is gravel and it took all that little truck could give just to get that much weight moving without sitting there killing it.

Although it was slow for the limited time I was playing, it sure was fun. I had to back it to the spot I started from as he would not let me turn that sharp in the gravel; (didn't want to scrub off, or cut and tires). That dozer probably weighed about 90,000 the way it was outfitted.

I called it "The little Mack that could".

Rob

[randyp]

I have a 58 B-61ST, perfect running 170 Thermodyne, triplex with 5.02 rears, and speaking of moving dozers: I have a friend that picks new dozers up from E. Peoria, IL and hauls them to his yard. He works for Daily Express and they move a lot of them as does Keen Trucking across the street. There was a new D-10 setting on his beam trailer with the cab off, but complete otherwise including a three tooth ripper on the back. I backed my B61 under and hitched up, waited for the air to build to move and did not have enough power to get 10 miles per hour in about 1000'. I was able to upshift two gears, (auxilary only) and had not run up against the governor before running out of room before needing to turn though. The lot is gravel and it took all that little truck could give just to get that much weight moving without sitting there killing it.

Although it was slow for the limited time I was playing, it sure was fun. I had to back it to the spot I started from as he would not let me turn that sharp in the gravel; (didn't want to scrub off, or cut and tires). That dozer probably weighed about 90,000 the way it was outfitted.

I called it "The little Mack that could".

Rob

Well, you can say you actually pulled a 10 with it now then, thats great, i bet she did squat, lol. I move a komatsu with mine, it only weighs about 25,000 lbs. I work in a strip mine here mining lignite for a power plant, I run a cat 10 prestripping dirt, all decked out i think a 10 weighs a little over 300,000 lbs. or approaching it anyway. When it has to go in for maintenance they move them with an old converted Euclid 100 ton coal hauler and a really wide hydraulic drop neck custom built trailer, single axle on truck and trailer, but really huge tires. We run 3 cat D-10s stripping, 3cat D-9s supporting 100 ton dump trucks, 3 cat scrapers , 2 hitachi 1800 shovels loading trucks, 4 cat 637 twin engine scrapers, and 2 cat 992s with 4 dart 120 ton haulers moving lignite. Haulers are 1971 models with 12 cylinder cummins, heh,,we go through bout 4500 gallons of fuel a shift and moved about 16 million yards a year, running 7 days a week 24 hrs a day, 12 hr shifts. i dont think i better back my lil single axle under one,,lol,,,later,,,Randy

[Rob]

Well, you can say you actually pulled a 10 with it now then, thats great, i bet she did squat, lol. I move a komatsu with mine, it only weighs about 25,000 lbs. I work in a strip mine here mining lignite for a power plant, I run a cat 10 prestripping dirt, all decked out i think a 10 weighs a little over 300,000 lbs. or approaching it anyway. When it has to go in for maintenance they move them with an old converted Euclid 100 ton coal hauler and a really wide hydraulic drop neck custom built trailer, single axle on truck and trailer, but really huge tires. We run 3 cat D-10s stripping, 3cat D-9s supporting 100 ton dump trucks, 3 cat scrapers , 2 hitachi 1800 shovels loading trucks, 4 cat 637 twin engine scrapers, and 2 cat 992s with 4 dart 120 ton haulers moving lignite. Haulers are 1971 models with 12 cylinder cummins, heh,,we go through bout 4500 gallons of fuel a shift and moved about 16 million yards a year, running 7 days a week 24 hrs a day, 12 hr shifts. i dont think i better back my lil single axle under one,,lol,,,later,,,Randy

Guess I should have said that there was no blade, or frame on that tractor, but forgot..... A D10 usually takes three trailers to deliver complete as a ripper is usually separate from the tractor as is the cab due to height, and the blade and frame is a separate shipment. A D11 needs five trailers and every trailer is very heavy.

Rob

[Greg Rider]

Damn, just thinking of that blistering speed makes my eyes water from the imaginary windblast.

Rob

Do you guys always have to rub it in about your speed and power!!!

[HK Trucking]

Guess I should have said that there was no blade, or frame on that tractor, but forgot..... A D10 usually takes three trailers to deliver complete as a ripper is usually separate from the tractor as is the cab due to height, and the blade and frame is a separate shipment. A D11 needs five trailers and every trailer is very heavy.

Rob

The heaviest machine we have where I work is a D8 Cat. I think it weighs about 80 or 90,000 lbs.

We move that in one piece though, we've got overweight and overwidth permits on the 2 larger lowboys.

Even though our heavy haul tractors have 550 H.P. C15 Cat motors with 18 speed Fullers, you still know you got some weight back there!

.

[Freightrain]

Do you guys always have to rub it in about your speed and power!!!

I'll be pullin the "big hill" Saturday coming home from QuakerCity. Wanna run'em???

[Rob]

The heaviest machine we have where I work is a D8 Cat. I think it weighs about 80 or 90,000 lbs.

We move that in one piece though, we've got overweight and overwidth permits on the 2 larger lowboys.

Even though our heavy haul tractors have 550 H.P. C15 Cat motors with 18 speed Fullers, you still know you got some weight back there!

.

Hi Herb, I've seen several D8's moved that are complete and they too are heavy. The D9, and 10 series of tractor will not clear the overpasses on the interstates if the cabs/ROPS are installed. As I've always seen, the blades and frames are always shipped separate. On the D9 and D10, the air conditioner units are plumbed, and secured to the back of the cab for transport. The D11 series gets the main tractor minus the roller frame, tracks, ripper, and cab and ROPS on a permitted oversize load, the roller frame and small parts on another permitted load, a single track and more smaller hardward like ripper teeth on another load, a single track and cab/ROPS on another load, and the main blade on a last load. Depending on travel distance depends on where the blade frame is packaged. If the tractor is a "carrydozer", there is one more load involved. If I recall correctly, a standard D11R weighs in about 214,000 before the owner "options" are added on......

Few years ago a guy took off from Morton with a new D10 that had the cab and ROPS installed and caught it on an overpass traveling I-74. Imagine the force it would take to break the tractor loose from the trailer and pull it off and onto the pavement! Then imagine the driver not having the proper permits. Then imagine the damage to the bridge, and the fines to the company for the damage! The driver went to jail, (imagine that) and the bridge was rebuilt/repaired with the I74 overhaul project we had go on here for almost three years.

Rob

[randyp]

Hi Herb, I've seen several D8's moved that are complete and they too are heavy. The D9, and 10 series of tractor will not clear the overpasses on the interstates if the cabs/ROPS are installed. As I've always seen, the blades and frames are always shipped separate. On the D9 and D10, the air conditioner units are plumbed, and secured to the back of the cab for transport. The D11 series gets the main tractor minus the roller frame, tracks, ripper, and cab and ROPS on a permitted oversize load, the roller frame and small parts on another permitted load, a single track and more smaller hardward like ripper teeth on another load, a single track and cab/ROPS on another load, and the main blade on a last load. Depending on travel distance depends on where the blade frame is packaged. If the tractor is a "carrydozer", there is one more load involved. If I recall correctly, a standard D11R weighs in about 214,000 before the owner "options" are added on......

Few years ago a guy took off from Morton with a new D10 that had the cab and ROPS installed and caught it on an overpass traveling I-74. Imagine the force it would take to break the tractor loose from the trailer and pull it off and onto the pavement! Then imagine the driver not having the proper permits. Then imagine the damage to the bridge, and the fines to the company for the damage! The driver went to jail, (imagine that) and the bridge was rebuilt/repaired with the I74 overhaul project we had go on here for almost three years.

Rob

yeah, guess i should have mentioned all oour coal mine stuff is moved on big wide private haulroads, will get you guys a picc of the custom built equipment hauler and post it, (after all these 12 hr days are over)