Obama Care:

[RowdyRebel]

My main concern is people milking the system which will cost us taxpayers.

My main concern is just where exactly in the Constitution did We the People yield our Rights to Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness to the Government? When did we, who USED to be free individuals, cease to have the right to self-determination?

I'm self-employed. I went out and shopped around to find a health insurance policy which works for ME. Anyone who tells you health insurance is expensive is lying to you. It doesn't HAVE to be. I pay less than $1020 per YEAR in premiums. As long as I continue to pay the premiums, the policy is guaranteed renewable and cannot be canceled by BCBS (yes, it DOES say that in the policy). I bought this insurance policy as more of an asset protection plan (same as any OTHER insurance policy) rather than expecting it to pay for "preventive" care. Does your car insurance pay for your gas, oil changes, tires, brakes, and other KNOWN costs of owning a car? Why should a health insurance policy be required to cover those same KNOWN costs?

Long story short, under the house bill recently passed, I will be PENALIZED because I do not spend ENOUGH of my hard-earned money paying premiums to a health insurance company for coverages I do not want or need. Even though I have determined that the level of insurance I have bought is sufficient for my own needs, people I have never met hundreds of miles away have determined that my choice in health insurance policy is not good enough to make THEM happy, and therefore I must pay more.

If, as a result of this legislation, my health insurance plan is terminated...regulated out of existence...I will CHOOSE to go without insurance rather than partake in any "public option" run by the government.

They don't know it yet, but I WILL NOT PAY their penalty. I am self-employed. There is no "employer" to force to collect the penalty from me before I get paid. They can seize bank accounts, but before that happens, my accounts will be closed and I will start working on a cash-only basis (or accepting checks from local banks which I can cash at their bank). If the government wants my money, they have to come through me to get it. If any government agents show up at my door to seize any assets for payment of the health insurance penalty, I will treat them the same as any other common thief. Bring the body bags, you'll need 'em.

Liberty or death.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Thaddeus, you make some good points. Despite the fraud (which often gets caught) medicare is very cost effective. So cost effective that even if they had to pay the full cost for Medicare, many folks younger than 65 would pay less than they now do for private insurance.

RR, how old did you say you are? Back when I was young and healthy I could buy health insurance for peanuts too. In fact, the insurance companies were making a killing on me because I never got sick. But today at age 59 no private insurer will insure me at any price. But for about the same amount you're paying for probably limited coverage I have a choice of a several policies. But I can only get these affordable insurance options through a federal government insurance plan- the federal employee health benefits plan (www.fehb.gov). I'm eligible because I'm a retired federal worker, but I think every american citizen should be allowed to buy the same great insurance I have.

[phantom309]

I hope it doesn't pass the Senate! I sure hope they have enough sense to get rid of the damn thing. If you want to know if socialized medicine works look at Canada and most of Europe........Nope it doesn't work at all!

I don't usually get involved with political discussions but I notice that the Canadian medical system is usually called a SOCIALIZED system. I think that's an accurate description but strangely enough I don't think most Canadians actually think of it that way. I guess it would also be accurate to say we have a SOCIALIZED highway system, a SOCIALIZED military and even a SOCIALIZED sewer and water system, but most of us just seem to think of it as the health care system.

I was curious so I tried doing a search of worldwide rankings of health care systems and Canada was well down the list at #30

I think most Canadians, including me, give very little thought to the health care system. We used to have a private medical system in Canada but that was a long time ago. I think most people here are fairly comfortable with the system we have. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

I also checked life expectancy and Canada was pretty good there, #8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

I also did a search to compare Canada to the USA and this is the first thing I got... http://vorg.ca/2283-Healthcare-battle-Canada-vs-USA

The problem with these kinds of studies is that you can't always be sure how accurate they are but it looks to me like the Canadian and US systems both work fairly well and each probably have their strong and weak points.

[Double L]

What bothers me the most is if we don't pay into this or get insurance which will be mandatory we will be faced with a fine and thrown in jail for something like 5 years.

[RowdyRebel]

Thaddeus, you make some good points. Despite the fraud (which often gets caught) medicare is very cost effective. So cost effective that even if they had to pay the full cost for Medicare, many folks younger than 65 would pay less than they now do for private insurance.

RR, how old did you say you are? Back when I was young and healthy I could buy health insurance for peanuts too. In fact, the insurance companies were making a killing on me because I never got sick. But today at age 59 no private insurer will insure me at any price. But for about the same amount you're paying for probably limited coverage I have a choice of a several policies. But I can only get these affordable insurance options through a federal government insurance plan- the federal employee health benefits plan (www.fehb.gov). I'm eligible because I'm a retired federal worker, but I think every american citizen should be allowed to buy the same great insurance I have.

It has a lot to do with exactly what you want the insurance to cover. Just like when insuring a car, the more coverages you buy, the more expensive your premiums become. Lower deductibles mean higher premiums, too.

My plan has a $1750 deductible that I have to pay before BCBS pays out one red cent. Go see the doctor? Out of my pocket. Need medicine? Out of my pocket. That is until I've spent $1750 for the year. Then BCBS picks up 80% of the bill, with me forking over the other 20%. It goes on like that until I've spent $4750 for the year out of my pocket in addition to the premiums. Worst case scenario, I've got less than $6000 in medical bills I need to pay each year.

So why in the world would I want to ENSURE I have to pay $500/month in medical bills by taking on an all-inclusive type policy when I only have to worry about coming up with that sort of cash right now if something major happens? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Insurance at ANY age is a gamble. You are gambling that you might get sick or injured and want to protect your assets so you buy a policy. The insurance company is gambling that you wont get sick or injured when they write you the policy, and the premiums they charge are based upon what they feel their risk of having to pay out are going to be. The less likely they think they are to have to pay out, the lower the premiums. If you need a lot of medical treatment, and you expect the insurance to pay for it, it SHOULD be expensive. Why should you expect anyone else to pay your way through life?

If you have a bad driving record...tickets, wrecks, etc..., your car insurance will be high.

If you live in a bad or a storm-prone area and have a lot of claims against your homeowners policy, your home insurance will be high.

If you are on your death bed, you aren't likely to be able to find an insurance company willing to write you a life insurance policy, either.

That's the other thing about these reforms that has me irked. What OTHER insurance is required to cover "pre-existing conditions"? You can't drive around without car insurance until you wreck and then expect to buy a policy to cover the damages to your car and the liability to fix the other person's car. If you try to do so, you'll be thrown in jail for insurance fraud. You can't go without a homeowners policy until your house burns down and then expect to buy a policy which will pay for your house to be rebuilt and all of your stuff replaced. There are laws AGAINST that. So why should health insurance be any different? If you have insurance at the time of a sickness or injury, it is not classified as a pre-existing condition...and even if you switch insurance providers, the mere fact that you HAD insurance at the time waves any waiting period before pre-existing conditions would be covered.

Insurance is asset protection. It isn't supposed to pay for maintenance or any other regularly expected expenses. When people stop expecting other people to pay their regular medical bills for them, premiums will come down.

Sure, there are a few tweaks that COULD be made to lower the cost of insurance by lowering the physician's cost of doing business, as well as encourage more people to buy insurance without unconstitutionally mandating they do so...none of them would require ANY taxpayer money, nor would they lead to any "single payer" government run insurance plan. Fix what's broken, but leave what is working alone...like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Double L]

Amen Rowdy, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[GearheadGrrrl]

A $1750 deductable? It's hard to even call that insurance! I'm at least twice your age and my government insurance is costing less than your private plan and my deductable is less than half yours. I have coverage for prescription drugs too- sounds like your private plan doesn't cover that. BTW, is your insurance plan through the college you're attending?

[other dog]

be sure to get one of these-you need a sharp pencil when filling out forms.

[Gambi80]

encourage more people to buy insurance without unconstitutionally mandating they do .

none

This is the part that worries me the most.

I am in the same boat that you are...owner/operator/self-employed...although I have a kid. Since I carry a Teamster card I "get" the option to pay into their health/welfare but it's so outragiously priced (I asked the secretary on the phone if she was fucking nuts) I just buy my own basic stuff....prescription and tolerable co-pays/deductables.

[blueknight0517@yahoo.com]

"well, there you go again...."

I belive that health insurance should only be for castrophic problems. Routine check ups and minor problems should be paid in cash between you and your

Doctor. This would do a number of things. First it withdraw that large "pool of cash" that everyone belives is there (it isn't). It would make a person more responsible for their care. The Doctors would be forced to be more conmpetative as people would watch their dollars and shop for the best price. Same goes for medication. Once the cash and carry is installed , the market will dictate the price.

With insurance, private or (God forbid) Government, everyone doesn't care about the price because 'I'm not paying for it." The Doctors don't care what the charges are becuase there is a "huge pool of money out there and I gonna get some." Even minor surgeries and elective surgery should be paid for in cash by the consumer. Again you vote with you dollar and go for the best deal.

The other problem is the protection that the insurance companies have. Open up the states so that insurnace can be sold Nation wide. This will increase competition and as the companies chase the dollars price goes down or the policey would inprove and you would get more for your dollar. Anthame Blue Cross of Connecticut can not sell insurance in Indiana or Idaho. Remove these barriers and open up the insured pool and prices would drop.

If you are forced to buy insurnace you can not vote with your dollar. Car insurance can not be compared to Health Insurance. Not everyone is forced to have a car and not everyone is forced to have a license (Though that is changing with Homeland Security requiring everyone to have a license ie National ID card.)A person can live without a car. He can work, buy goods and get buy without ever having a car and thus no car insurance.

If the Hospitals, Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies had to chase the dollars, in this case the consumer, you would be supprised how fast prices would drop or the more service or product you could buy.

I belive we, as a Country, are very close to the tipping point. Once that point is reached, over we go, the way of the Soviet Union. Then we will have Change. Just not the change we thought because "he" and "we" were not on the same page.

Remember the words of President Regan when he asked; " what are the ten most terrifying words in the English language?" "HELLO, I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP!"

Jim

[other dog]

"well, there you go again...."

I belive that health insurance should only be for castrophic problems. Routine check ups and minor problems should be paid in cash between you and your

Doctor. This would do a number of things. First it withdraw that large "pool of cash" that everyone belives is there (it isn't). It would make a person more responsible for their care. The Doctors would be forced to be more conmpetative as people would watch their dollars and shop for the best price. Same goes for medication. Once the cash and carry is installed , the market will dictate the price.

With insurance, private or (God forbid) Government, everyone doesn't care about the price because 'I'm not paying for it." The Doctors don't care what the charges are becuase there is a "huge pool of money out there and I gonna get some." Even minor surgeries and elective surgery should be paid for in cash by the consumer. Again you vote with you dollar and go for the best deal.

The other problem is the protection that the insurance companies have. Open up the states so that insurnace can be sold Nation wide. This will increase competition and as the companies chase the dollars price goes down or the policey would inprove and you would get more for your dollar. Anthame Blue Cross of Connecticut can not sell insurance in Indiana or Idaho. Remove these barriers and open up the insured pool and prices would drop.

If you are forced to buy insurnace you can not vote with your dollar. Car insurance can not be compared to Health Insurance. Not everyone is forced to have a car and not everyone is forced to have a license (Though that is changing with Homeland Security requiring everyone to have a license ie National ID card.)A person can live without a car. He can work, buy goods and get buy without ever having a car and thus no car insurance.

If the Hospitals, Insurance Companies and Pharmaceutical Companies had to chase the dollars, in this case the consumer, you would be supprised how fast prices would drop or the more service or product you could buy.

I belive we, as a Country, are very close to the tipping point. Once that point is reached, over we go, the way of the Soviet Union. Then we will have Change. Just not the change we thought because "he" and "we" were not on the same page.

Remember the words of President Regan when he asked; " what are the ten most terrifying words in the English language?" "HELLO, I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP!"

Jim

you hit the nail right square on the head there!

[RowdyRebel]

A $1750 deductable? It's hard to even call that insurance! I'm at least twice your age and my government insurance is costing less than your private plan and my deductable is less than half yours. I have coverage for prescription drugs too- sounds like your private plan doesn't cover that. BTW, is your insurance plan through the college you're attending?

Your government insurance is subsidized by taxpayer dollars. How much is the GOVERNMENT paying in premiums for your insurance? Sure, YOUR portion of the premiums is less...but I guarantee the contribution of both yourself and your former employer add up to MUCH more than what I pay.

...and I haven't attended college in years. Attended fall '97 to spring '01, then spring semester '04 to finish up and get my worthless piece of paper. My insurance is an individual plan, paid entirely by me for me.

Yeah, it's got a $1750 deductible.

$0 - $1,750 I pay 100%

$1,751 - $16,750 I pay 20%, insurance pays 80%

$16,750 - $5,000,000 insurance pays 100%

It's not supposed to be a pre-paid preventive medical treatment plan (like your all-inclusive taxpayer funded plan). It is insurance. Asset protection in the event of a catastrophic injury or illness. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Double L]

How was the paper worthless Rebel? What did you get a degree in?

[Gambi80]

Your government insurance is subsidized by taxpayer dollars. How much is the GOVERNMENT paying in premiums for your insurance? Sure, YOUR portion of the premiums is less...but I guarantee the contribution of both yourself and your former employer add up to MUCH more than what I pay.

...and I haven't attended college in years. Attended fall '97 to spring '01, then spring semester '04 to finish up and get my worthless piece of paper. My insurance is an individual plan, paid entirely by me for me.

Yeah, it's got a $1750 deductible.

$0 - $1,750 I pay 100%

$1,751 - $16,750 I pay 20%, insurance pays 80%

$16,750 - $5,000,000 insurance pays 100%

It's not supposed to be a pre-paid preventive medical treatment plan (like your all-inclusive taxpayer funded plan). It is insurance. Asset protection in the event of a catastrophic injury or illness. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think some people are having a hard time believing that you have insurance that doesn't have prescription coverage, $25 unlimited doctor visits, next to nothing for deductibles...so on and so forth...so you can go to the emergency room for nothing every time your fart smells funny or your restless leg syndrome kicks in.

[GearheadGrrrl]

I think some people are having a hard time believing that you have insurance that doesn't have prescription coverage, $25 unlimited doctor visits, next to nothing for deductibles...so on and so forth...so you can go to the emergency room for nothing every time your fart smells funny or your restless leg syndrome kicks in.

Yep, I heard of that kind of "insurance" before... It's called Insurance In Name Only!

[Double L]

While were on the subject about Obamacare the lovely Jesse Jackson had this to say.

You Can't Vote Against Health Care and Call Yourself a Black Man!

The Hill reports that the Rev. Jesse Jackson criticized Rep. Artur Davis (D-AL) for voting against the House health care bill, saying, "You can't vote against health care and call yourself a black man."

Jackson was speaking at a Congressional Black Caucus Foundation reception commemorating the 25th anniversary of Jackson's presidential run.

"We even have blacks voting against the health care bill," Jackson said.

All of Alabama's representatives voted against the bill. After the vote, Davis released this statement explaining why he voted no, and saying he would prefer something closer to the Senate Finance Committee version of the bill.

[RowdyRebel]

I think some people are having a hard time believing that you have insurance that doesn't have prescription coverage, $25 unlimited doctor visits, next to nothing for deductibles...so on and so forth...so you can go to the emergency room for nothing every time your fart smells funny or your restless leg syndrome kicks in.

Like I said, it is INSURANCE...not a pre-paid medical service plan. I don't expect my auto insurance to cover brake pads, tires, oil changes, or fuel. I don't expect my homeowners insurance to cover paint, light bulbs, lawn care, or snow removal. Why do people EXPECT their health insurance to cover preventive/regular maintenance type stuff? Insurance = asset protection.

When I was shopping, I was LOOKING for a plan that covered extraordinary expenses, NOT the ordinary ones. That is what insurance is for, after all. When you buy insurance, it is inexpensive. When you buy into a pre-paid medical service plan, it gets expensive. Every penny the insurance expects to pay out (and then some) will be collected as a premium. I'd prefer to keep the money in my pocket until I actually NEED medical care...and when that day comes, I'll pay my part of the bill.

Major medical plans are out there. I got mine through BCBS, and I'm not worried about "insurance in name only" either. The policy is what it is...written very clearly in black and white in a binding contract. It cannot be canceled as long as I pay the premiums, either...that's also in the policy. Guaranteed renewable, too...also clearly written in the policy.

[Double L]

Amendment #28...Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators or Representatives, and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States."

[Gambi80]

Maybe I'll move to Nebraska or whatever other insignificant state that got away with getting all this shit for free.

It's too bad that more people vote for that dumbshit American Idol show than for their own elected representatives. Maybe they see the idol show as having more of an effect on their daily lives than some bullshit healthcare bill. F*&k...what am I thinking...where would the world be without Kelly Clarkson, Chris Doughtry and that other crappy country singer...the hell's her name...?

The fact that we're getting forced into paying for something we either can't afford or don't want to afford is ok though.

[Double L]

Maybe I'll move to Nebraska or whatever other insignificant state that got away with getting all this shit for free.

It's too bad that more people vote for that dumbshit American Idol show than for their own elected representatives. Maybe they see the idol show as having more of an effect on their daily lives than some bullshit healthcare bill. F*&k...what am I thinking...where would the world be without Kelly Clarkson, Chris Doughtry and that other crappy country singer...the hell's her name...?

The fact that we're getting forced into paying for something we either can't afford or don't want to afford is ok though.

Nebraska was one along with Vermont or Louisiana if not both. Carried Underwood is her name, I don't like most new country cause it's all pop same with most new music it's all pop. To classify it was a certain genre is misleading. I rather listen to older rock and country such as Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Hank Sr., Johnny Paycheck, and etc. The only new country artist I like is Shooter Jennings! I derailed this topic long enough.

[Gambi80]

Nebraska was one along with Vermont or Louisiana if not both. Carried Underwood is her name, I don't like most new country cause it's all pop same with most new music it's all pop. To classify it was a certain genre is misleading. I rather listen to older rock and country such as Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Hank Sr., Johnny Paycheck, and etc. The only new country artist I like is Shooter Jennings! I derailed this topic long enough.

Carried Underwear....that's it! I bet you have all her cd's. haha

[Double L]

Carried Underwear....that's it! I bet you have all her cd's. haha

Nope I never listened to her or Taylor Swift and I have no desire to. The only reason Taylor Swift only won the CMA was cause of that Kanye crap and funny thing is I believe they have the same agent.