2004 Vision

[Gambi80]

Mack dealer nearby has a 2004 Vision for sale...460hp, dual pipes, wet kit, 13sp...spec'd out to what I need and want.

I've seen various posts/topics on the post '03 trucks, but most have been bad (maybe I should take the hint?). I was just wondering the good, the bad and the ugly about the 2004's.

[fjh]

Mack dealer nearby has a 2004 Vision for sale...460hp, dual pipes, wet kit, 13sp...spec'd out to what I need and want.

I've seen various posts/topics on the post '03 trucks, but most have been bad (maybe I should take the hint?). I was just wondering the good, the bad and the ugly about the 2004's.

All external problems ,exhast gaskets, turbo problems, coolant pushing problems!

most of which have been finally cured BUT has your prospect truck had all these up dates????

That would be your worry!The later 2005/6 trucks mostly had exhast gasket problems the fix is spacers and update gaskets you got to know what to look for!

maybe you should take the hint

move up to 2001 or past 04 to 2005/06

Or stay put!!!!

[storkmack]

Stick with what you have. I assume that the Vision would have the aset motor. We have 2 of them. We hope that they burn to the ground. Thanks, Brad

[Mackpro]

Mack dealer nearby has a 2004 Vision for sale...460hp, dual pipes, wet kit, 13sp...spec'd out to what I need and want.

I've seen various posts/topics on the post '03 trucks, but most have been bad (maybe I should take the hint?). I was just wondering the good, the bad and the ugly about the 2004's.

2001-2003 non-ASET are good, 2004 CH and CX with ASET no-no, ASET engines do get better in the CXN-CHN framed trucks starting in 05. I prefer the 2002-2003

[Double L]

If I remember correctly the 00-03 Visions had the E7's in them.

[Gambi80]

All external problems ,exhast gaskets, turbo problems, coolant pushing problems!

most of which have been finally cured BUT has your prospect truck had all these up dates????

That would be your worry!The later 2005/6 trucks mostly had exhast gasket problems the fix is spacers and update gaskets you got to know what to look for!

maybe you should take the hint

move up to 2001 or past 04 to 2005/06

Or stay put!!!!

What's the difference between the ASET, AC and AI engines...?

They want 37,500 for this '04 with 465k/mi. Same dealer group, but it's at a different location from the salesman that I talk to. He thinks it's out of their lease fleet...rental truck...think "days of thunder"...but hopefully up on maintenence.

Problem is where I am now, major money I put in the truck isn't going to make it worth any more. I can't/don't want to afford anything newer than that and it's pretty impossible to find a Mack spec'd like this one and the one I have now...and be turnkey.

Maybe I'll look for a...Peterbilt!

[fjh]

What's the difference between the ASET, AC and AI engines...?

They want 37,500 for this '04 with 465k/mi. Same dealer group, but it's at a different location from the salesman that I talk to. He thinks it's out of their lease fleet...rental truck...think "days of thunder"...but hopefully up on maintenence.

Problem is where I am now, major money I put in the truck isn't going to make it worth any more. I can't/don't want to afford anything newer than that and it's pretty impossible to find a Mack spec'd like this one and the one I have now...and be turnkey.

Maybe I'll look for a...Peterbilt!

What's the difference between the ASET, AC and AI engines...?

Ac is tractor AI construction truck two diffrent egr concepts! you need AC.

[JerryB]

I have the very same truck you describe with 500,000 miles on it and it's been an unreliable POS since day one.

Besides the original cost of the truck I've spent well over $10,000 on "upgrades" such as turbos, EGR coolers, EGR valve, injector nozzles, EUPs, and it's still a POS.

Right now mine is pushing coolant out the overflow and we can find no cause for it, and it has always been one continual oil leak after the other, when you fix one leak 2 more pop up. Mine rides and drives like a Cadillac just not for long stretches at a time.

If I knew then what I know now I'd have gone with a 2 story Ford Falcon

[Gambi80]

Ahh...so AI and AC are versions of the ASET. Gotcha.

From the sounds of it, there's no hung jury on this topic.

[RowdyRebel]

What's the difference between the ASET, AC and AI engines...?

They want 37,500 for this '04 with 465k/mi. Same dealer group, but it's at a different location from the salesman that I talk to. He thinks it's out of their lease fleet...rental truck...think "days of thunder"...but hopefully up on maintenence.

Problem is where I am now, major money I put in the truck isn't going to make it worth any more. I can't/don't want to afford anything newer than that and it's pretty impossible to find a Mack spec'd like this one and the one I have now...and be turnkey.

Maybe I'll look for a...Peterbilt!

$37,500 sounds kind of high in today's truck market. Hell, I only paid $38,000 for my '01 with 260K on the odometer back in May of '08....BEFORE the truck market tanked. It's a buyers market right now...LOTS of trucks, and FEW buyers. The price ought to be lower. Hell, when I tried refinancing my truck loan a few months ago, the bank tried telling me it was only worth $24,000....and I still didn't have 400K on the odometer at the time.

Sure, the money you put into the truck won't make it worth more...but you know the truck. You know how it runs. You know if it's been good to you. What's that worth?

So you spend a bunch of money on a new-to-you truck. You don't know the history. You don't know how it runs. You don't know if it'll be reliable or if it'll be in the shop every other week for repairs.

Is your current truck paid off? If it is, why would you want another payment? If not, would this new truck come with a higher or lower truck payment each month?

Lots to consider. In case you can't tell, I'm not one to change vehicles just for the sake of changing vehicles. I'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...ESPECIALLY when my livelihood depends on it.

[Gambi80]

$37,500 sounds kind of high in today's truck market. Hell, I only paid $38,000 for my '01 with 260K on the odometer back in May of '08....BEFORE the truck market tanked. It's a buyers market right now...LOTS of trucks, and FEW buyers. The price ought to be lower. Hell, when I tried refinancing my truck loan a few months ago, the bank tried telling me it was only worth $24,000....and I still didn't have 400K on the odometer at the time.

Sure, the money you put into the truck won't make it worth more...but you know the truck. You know how it runs. You know if it's been good to you. What's that worth?

So you spend a bunch of money on a new-to-you truck. You don't know the history. You don't know how it runs. You don't know if it'll be reliable or if it'll be in the shop every other week for repairs.

Is your current truck paid off? If it is, why would you want another payment? If not, would this new truck come with a higher or lower truck payment each month?

Lots to consider. In case you can't tell, I'm not one to change vehicles just for the sake of changing vehicles. I'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...ESPECIALLY when my livelihood depends on it.

Well...that's the pickle I'm in.

It's not paid off yet...I've got a tad over 2 years left and I'm well on the backside of what it'd sell for versus what I owe. A neighbor farmer is pretty interested in my truck. If I were to sell, I'd like to sell while it's still worth something.

It's a couple thousand short of 700k on the odo...major work in the forseeable future. In my mind I can justify a newer truck with about the same payment versus an overhaul in the current one and whatever else it might need.

[storkmack]

I bet the truck you are looking at is from a fuel hauler up in Lake county. We have, what I believe is, the AI motor in our Granites. They are good. Decent power, OK mpg. The AC motors just suck. The 2 we have run like raped apes, but they are always in the shop. Fan hubs, fan clutchs, egr bullshit, water pumps. You get to change hoses and fan belts all the time because they go to shit due to the high under hood temps. We just sent the one into Mack to get re calibrated after changing an EPU. They came back and said that it needed 2 other EPU's changed and the EGR thing replaced. Grand total everything in $7500.00 We went and got it back, cleaned the EGR out and are running it. I guess the good thing is that we have a 95' CH with a million plus on it that can take the place of those 2 turds.

[RowdyRebel]

Well...that's the pickle I'm in.

It's not paid off yet...I've got a tad over 2 years left and I'm well on the backside of what it'd sell for versus what I owe. A neighbor farmer is pretty interested in my truck. If I were to sell, I'd like to sell while it's still worth something.

It's a couple thousand short of 700k on the odo...major work in the forseeable future. In my mind I can justify a newer truck with about the same payment versus an overhaul in the current one and whatever else it might need.

I'd start setting money aside...and hope to have enough saved up for the rebuild before it becomes necessary. The truly scary thing about this business is that it could become necessary to do that major work tomorrow...or it could run great for another 10 years before it needs that sort of attention...you just never know.

What you DO know, on the other hand, is the maintenance history and the record of reliability of your current truck...whereas the one you are looking at is an unknown. Yes, your current truck was an unknown at one point in time as well...but how lucky are you? How much have you sunk into your current rig to get it to where it is now...and how much will you have to sink into the new truck to get it to where you need it to be? Sure, the specs are right...but what about the smaller details? Those smaller details add up quick.

Personally, I want no part in the EGR, DPF, SCR, or any other EPA mandated crap they are putting on trucks these days. I just want a solid, reliable truck that goes where I need it to when I need it to go there. That pretty much rules out anything too much newer than the truck I've already got for me.

To each their own, though...some people like "change". If you can get enough selling your truck to not only pay off the remaining balance, but also put a large enough down payment on the new truck to keep the same or lower payments on the new truck, I can see where that deal could be tempting. I suppose there could be some tax benefits, too...get to start over on the depreciation, so you can take a larger deduction for a couple years where on your current ride the depreciation deduction is starting to fall off.

Lots to consider...but ultimately, it's your decision to make.

[convoyduel]

Most have just about nailed it. The AI's were internal exhaust gas recirculation putting the NOx back into the cool air heading to the combustion chamber. From the outside, they didn't look all that much different from the last of the E7's. They were used in MR's, RD's, DM's and Granites. The AC is the external cooled exhaust gas with all of the junk that hung off of the turbo side of the engine. The EGR coolers were intended to cool exhaust gas with engine coolant, thus the significantly higher underhood temps. I had 2 '04 CH613 SFA's with the 427 ASET AI's. They rode well, pulled very very well and got decent fuel economy, but like clockwork, every 25000 miles they threw turbos. Also, they boiled out coolant, boiled out grease from pulleys and burnt hoses and belts right off of the truck. The head was unbelievable in those and when they broke, they were down for a long long time as parts were so very scarce. There were dozens of updates to those, so many so that often there were updates that had to be made on the dealer lot for new trucks that just convoyed from the factory. In addition to these problems, there were multiple major problems with block casting failures, where sand or other debris was getting left in the blocks through assembly. A friend of mine spent 4 years running around the country from '04 to '08 working for Mack just tearing down brand new engines and rebuilding them from the defect. Most customers never knew their brand new truck had an engine with 10 hours that had already been torn completely down and reassembled in a shop.

The problem with the ASET-AI's is that they are now all finally coming out of warranty, so the recurring failures are finally off of Mack's books. That also means that they are not going to be as driven to find solutions for new problems that crop up on these smoking turds on someone else's dime. After just under a year, I drove both of my '04's back to the dealer on a Friday afternoon and left them on the lot in front of their door. We had a long discussion and they took care of me. I never drove those trucks again and wound up buying two used Peterbilts for a fraction of the cost. I still see one of the two trucks almost every week at a local paving company. They continue to have a lot of problems with it, and it mostly sits anyway. By the way, the two Lindahl Pete's I bought had 365 Cat 3176's with just under 300k on them. I ran them for 3 years and never spent a dime on the powertrain, and they never missed a single day's worth of work. I wound up selling them for what I paid.

I was at a Ritchie Brothers auction last week here in St. Louis and watched two nice '01 Visions with 550K on them, 355/380's, 64" hi rises go for $5000 apiece. They were very decent trucks in great shape overall. If I'm going to take a gamble and trade a known for an unknown, I'm going to make sure I don't have the farm bet on the new truck being in worse shape than the old one. I wish you luck in your decision.

[Gambi80]

Bah...I went and looked at the truck, without salesman present. The doors were unlocked and just did a quick look through...freezing rain and 40mph wind sucks balls. Very, very nice looking truck, but no engine brake. Otherwise the truck is set up well.

I'd have to say I'm pretty much talked out of it anyway. The ultimate engine of choice for me would be a 525hp N14...simple raw power...but I digress, those are hard to find too.

[bts-4120]

Bah...I went and looked at the truck, without salesman present. The doors were unlocked and just did a quick look through...freezing rain and 40mph wind sucks balls. Very, very nice looking truck, but no engine brake. Otherwise the truck is set up well.

I'd have to say I'm pretty much talked out of it anyway. The ultimate engine of choice for me would be a 525hp N14...simple raw power...but I digress, those are hard to find too.

I've been down the N-14 road fair motor with a absolute junk ECM (pack a spare you will need it sooner than later) I would not trade my 01 427 for a dozen N-14's

[usmcjimbo]

Bah...I went and looked at the truck, without salesman present. The doors were unlocked and just did a quick look through...freezing rain and 40mph wind sucks balls. Very, very nice looking truck, but no engine brake. Otherwise the truck is set up well.

I'd have to say I'm pretty much talked out of it anyway. The ultimate engine of choice for me would be a 525hp N14...simple raw power...but I digress, those are hard to find too.

I ran a fleet of 400+ Macks a few years back. Everything that everyone is telling you about the 2004"s is correct. I would steer clear if I was you.

[convoyduel]

The lack of an engine brake caught a lot of people and even dealers off-guard when the ASET's came out. Most everyone was used to being able to throw a jake on later for around $1500, be they Mack, Cat or Cummins. In fact, in many cases, dealers realized it was cheaper to order the engines without the jake and put them on later rather than order one up from the factory. That all changed with Mack's ASET's as the top side of the engine was plumbed different with a jake versus without. In addition to the jake assembly, there were a lot of other parts that had to be changed and a jake upfit was pushing $5K if I remember correctly. One of my 2 got upfitted with the jake. They were both "stock" models for the dealer when they used to order around 30 or so identical per year to have on hand. If I remember correctly, my jake was their learning curve for the ASET.

[cgallamore]

i got a 2004 vision late summer check all post by bigen i think it mite answer all your questions if i had it to do over 02 or older or 06 or newer

[cgallamore]

my 2004 is paid for. if i were fighting a payment and repairs, i would have allready gone under. looks like i mite have to borrow just to keep it going,i would sell and get away from the 04 for a lot less than what your talking about.

[Rob]

Why not repower with a mechanical E7 engine? I don't know anything about inspections and such but it sure seems like a viable option given the amount of problems folks experience with these things.

Rob

[Gambi80]

Why not repower with a mechanical E7 engine? I don't know anything about inspections and such but it sure seems like a viable option given the amount of problems folks experience with these things.

Rob

I wouldn't mind re-powering the truck I've got now with an E-Tech (98-01 vintage..?)...but I don't know if I'd be ballzy enough to swap motors like that. I'm sure the electronics aren't very compatible either.

[Rob]

I wouldn't mind re-powering the truck I've got now with an E-Tech (98-01 vintage..?)...but I don't know if I'd be ballzy enough to swap motors like that. I'm sure the electronics aren't very compatible either.

If you wanted to stay electronic you purchase the donor engine, and all electronics including the wiring harness from the yard. I don't know how many times we've swapped late model engines/trans combinations into an early chassis' over the years.

Can't say I've ever done a big truck but plenty of early Mustangs, Camaros and such run with mid 90's to early 2000's drivelines and computers. Really not that difficult to do. Since you would be using essentially the same platform it would not be much of a challenge.

If you went with a mechanical E7 series engine you wouldn't need to reverse engineer much although you may be down on horsepower a little. That series of engine is too new for me to know anything about. All I know is that if left alone they are fine but when cranked upon, reliability suffers. These trucks are becomming old enough to not have any warranty left so time to make them what you want. Still seem to be good, comfortable trucks.

My basis is simple; I don't believe in vehicle payments so I maintain what is here and run it till no longer feasible, or cost effective. The one payment method works real well for me.

Rob

[storkmack]

We have talked about doing what Rob said with one of the POS we have(the one with an all mack drivetrain). Our thoughts are that once it goes down for the big one, then we are going to either take all the crap off of it and see if we can still make it run, or put a different motor in it. The truck is set up nice for what we do. Thought about selling it, but we would take a bath on it. Has far as Gambi swapping up to an E-tech....I wouldn't. They run a lil better, but I just don't see what you would really be gaining long term. The motor you have now will run for ever with proper maintence. When it does get tired, go nuts building it up.

[jward]

If that CH in the picture is your's i'd keep it. I don't know what motor you have now, but i'd spend the money to go thru it and the rest of the truck before i spent the money on an ASET, coolant issues fixed or not. I had an AC in my granite and didnt have much trouble, other than it being gutless, but ive heard horror stories about the visions, from what I was told, part of the problem, besides mechanical failure, was the way it was wedged in there, airflow issues in other words, you can't change physics if you weren't delt a good hand to begin with from the Mack Engineers.