End Of The V8 And Increased Titan Sales

[kscarbel]

What is sad is the very thing that got Mack in trouble to where they got bought out is the fact they made too good of a truck,and weren't selling enough new ones.A Mack customer buys a Mack truck knowing it's good for as long as he wants to run it,and most did just that,first owner Macks would be 10,15 or 20 years old before being traded.Unlike the competion trucks that were ready for the junkyard after 4 or 5 years.Guess they don't have to worry about that anymore.I still think that Macks are superior to the competion,but with todays trucks,that ain't saying much.

I hear you. What's interesting is if you look at today's leading European trucks, say Scania, MAN and Benz, you will indeed see a good truck that with proper care can last for 10-20 years.

But today's Mack-branded North American market Volvo chassis is NOT the Mack product of 15 years ago. It's more like the disposable Freightliner of 15 years ago that you dumped at 400,000 miles (after 4 years) and took a bath in resale value.

[GearheadGrrrl]

What Volvo doesn't comprehend is the emotional draw of the V-8... Sort of like how the distinctive sound and feel of Harley's V-Twin alone sells a lot of bikes. I was in South Dakota yesterday and saw over a dozen 13 axle double trailer "road trains" and even a 17 axle one. But not a single one was pulled by a Mack, they we're all hooked to Paccar products. One of the most memorable SD "road trains" in my experience was pulled by a V-8 powered Superliner... I could identify it's unmistakable roar before it came into sight! If Volvo had allowed Mack to revive the V8 in a new Superliner chassis, Mack would be the best selling truck in the high GVW states of the west and Canada.

[farmer52]

The V8 died with the advent of higher fuel costs and tight emissions regs. Also, the HP of 6 cylinder engines has equalled or surpassed the HP of the older V8s. The cost to develop and certify new engines has escalated. All the OEs dropped V configuration engines years ago, not just Mack. The DD 2stroke was an inexpensive engine but emissions was its downfall. I agree the V8 is a special engine but how many companies or owners are willing to pay the price of a V8? Trucks are now "vertically intergrated" and the truck OEs are controlling the drivetrain (something Mack did years ago). Go talk to the engine OEs and convince them the merits of producing a V8. EPA fuel economy regs on HD trucks is driving aerodynamic designs. Go talk to the government! As much as I like and want to preserve the past, technology changes. Look at the automotive industry...big block V8s are a thing of the past in most cars. You have to purchase a high performance car (Camaro, Challenger, Mustang, etc.) or pickup to get a V8. Same thing with a rear wheel drive car.

Get over it!

[farmer52]

What Volvo doesn't comprehend is the emotional draw of the V-8... Sort of like how the distinctive sound and feel of Harley's V-Twin alone sells a lot of bikes. I was in South Dakota yesterday and saw over a dozen 13 axle double trailer "road trains" and even a 17 axle one. But not a single one was pulled by a Mack, they we're all hooked to Paccar products. One of the most memorable SD "road trains" in my experience was pulled by a V-8 powered Superliner... I could identify it's unmistakable roar before it came into sight! If Volvo had allowed Mack to revive the V8 in a new Superliner chassis, Mack would be the best selling truck in the high GVW states of the west and Canada.

South Dakota = PACCAR country

PACCAR = and likey 6 cylinder powered.

[bullhusk]

Around that time (1999), the sales marketing group realized the importantance of the company's signature E9 V-8 as a halo product and requested it be updated. The outcome was the emissions-compliant EUP E-9 V-8, which with a combination of SCR and EGR (the current leading technology), could be EPA2010 compliant today.

When given the freedom by enginemakers to be deeply involved in engine (cylinder head) development, Jacobs has the ability to offer stunning engine braking capabilities. That is one reason why the new Mercedes-Benz OM471/OM472/OM473 engine range (known in the US as the DD13/DD15/DD16) have record-setting engine brake performance courtesy of Jacobs engine brakes. Benz actually redesigned the upper end of these new engines, at Jacobs' recommendation, for greater effect. German engineering is to be respected, but for engine braking, they call America's Jacobs. That speaks volumes about how well Jacobs is thought of around the globe. I personally would want a revised E-9 V-8 to have a Jacobs-designed brake.

I was at a meeting with Detroit Diesel folks just before the DD13 thru 16 were to come to the market and was told by the German rep. that the motors were a joint venture including not only Detroit America engineers but mechanics as well from both countries. So I think that American engineering is to be respected as well. Now this is where Volvo need's to come down from there high horse and start to respect the American consumer, WE DON'T LIKE BEING PISSED ON AND TOLD THAT IT'S RAINING!!! Volvo never built a drive train like mack and never will but they are going to try and that will be the down fall of the greatest name in trucks! They keep pushing aside American Eng. an Tec. and think there engineers are the greasted thing since Ice cream and if you think thats not true? just look at the past couple of years

BULLHUSK

[GearheadGrrrl]

On my ride in SD yesterday I saw at least a dozen 13 axle grain trains and the 17 axle side dump train I posted over at www.gearheadgrrrl.com. SD has no maximum weight limit or overall length limit, just Formula "B" and the trailers and dolly in a doubles train are limited to 81-1/2 feet in length. Thus those 13 axle trains can run at around 150k GCW and the 17 axle train about 170k!

So these trucks are running at twice the STAA weight limits of 80k GCW, and it's not rocket science that they need twice the horsepower and torque. Even the MP16 at SD maximum weights is going to be the equivalent of a 300 HP torqueless wonder 8 liter "midrange" engine. An MP8 ain't gonna cut it at these weights, and the Mack V8 was just gettin' warmed up at the 500 HP rating with 700 HP and higher ratings waiting in the wings. Then factor in the easier packaging of the V8... For Canada and a lot of permit haulers the Titan is about a foot too long. Imagine if the V8 Mack was still on the market, drawing in buyers with it's efficiency and power, and hooking 'em with it's lusty lyrics!

[kscarbel]

What Volvo doesn't comprehend is the emotional draw of the V-8... Sort of like how the distinctive sound and feel of Harley's V-Twin alone sells a lot of bikes. I was in South Dakota yesterday and saw over a dozen 13 axle double trailer "road trains" and even a 17 axle one. But not a single one was pulled by a Mack, they we're all hooked to Paccar products. One of the most memorable SD "road trains" in my experience was pulled by a V-8 powered Superliner... I could identify it's unmistakable roar before it came into sight! If Volvo had allowed Mack to revive the V8 in a new Superliner chassis, Mack would be the best selling truck in the high GVW states of the west and Canada.

I couldn't agree more. Scania can speak volumes about the emotional draw of the V-8. For a truckmaker in the U.S. market to have the V-8 high horsepower segment all to themselves is a sales manager's dream.

[41180]

so all of the other european truck makers make great trucks except for volvo ?seems like a little bit of sour grapes.....if i remember right the mack mp engine series was touted as being a mack and volvo joint venture. i doubt was much of mack engineering, but i also doubt detroit diesel had anything to do with the new mercedes dd 13 and dd15 and 16 as well. illl take the mack over the freightliner anyday.

[41180]

i doubt mack would be the number one seller of heavy haulers if they had the v8 still. they were not the best seller before so why would they be now ? some people loved the e9 and a greater majority would not even consider buying a mack v8 powered truck. they had a bad reputation from the 865 and 866 v8's it was unfounded but thats the case. when my dad bought his new superliner in 89 he wanted to buy the E9500 and the salesman talked him out of it. he said they did not hold up and was not worth the 10,000 dollars extra. of coarse later he found out the E9 engine was a great engine and put one in his superliner in 97 only it cost him 25000 instead of 10000.

[kscarbel]

I was at a meeting with Detroit Diesel folks just before the DD13 thru 16 were to come to the market and was told by the German rep. that the motors were a joint venture including not only Detroit America engineers but mechanics as well from both countries. So I think that American engineering is to be respected as well. Now this is where Volvo need's to come down from there high horse and start to respect the American consumer, WE DON'T LIKE BEING PISSED ON AND TOLD THAT IT'S RAINING!!! Volvo never built a drive train like mack and never will but they are going to try and that will be the down fall of the greatest name in trucks! They keep pushing aside American Eng. an Tec. and think there engineers are the greasted thing since Ice cream and if you think thats not true? just look at the past couple of years

BULLHUSK

Roger Penske did great thing for DD. He improved quality and introduced meaningful new product (Series 60). That engine by the way is still popular in global markets and a Freightliner Argosy option in Africa and other markets. Thus it was a sad day to see America's DD sold to a foreign company (Daimler). America's industrial shrinks yet again. And now, China's Yuchai is building a revised version of the Series 60 under their name that can reach Euro-6. In a quiet transaction, they paid for the technology.

Both Daimler and Jacobs management told me the OM471/472/473 (i.e. DD13/15/16) were designed in Germany by Benz. At the US meeting you attended, you got the politically correct for US market ears speech that it was a joint effort. Nice try but far from the truth. In reality, like Mack Trucks, DD no longer exists. It's now Daimler's US market distribution channel for Benz components (DD hasn't designed an engine in years).

[bullhusk]

Roger Penske did great thing for DD. He improved quality and introduced meaningful new product (Series 60). That engine by the way is still popular in global markets and a Freightliner Argosy option in Africa and other markets. Thus it was a sad day to see America's DD sold to a foreign company (Daimler). America's industrial shrinks yet again. And now, China's Yuchai is building a revised version of the Series 60 under their name that can reach Euro-6. In a quiet transaction, they paid for the technology.

Both Daimler and Jacobs management told me the OM471/472/473 (i.e. DD13/15/16) were designed in Germany by Benz. At the US meeting you attended, you got the politically correct for US market ears speech that it was a joint effort. Nice try but far from the truth. In reality, like Mack Trucks, DD no longer exists. It's now Daimler's US market distribution channel for Benz components (DD hasn't designed an engine in years).

I have to disagree with you here number one , the MB 4000 engine came to the US it was badged as the series 50 or 55 I don't remember which one it was but it was loaded with problems it was Detroit diesel America that put that engine on the map by using USA DDEC Technology, and if the German engineers are designing these motors they are using our technology the technology that they stole from Detroit diesel if they were that smart they would've had the jump on Detroit diesel years ago but in fact it was Detroit diesel that showed them how to build that diesel no other way they took our technology and they took the credit for it plane and simple you can say whatever, for you to say that Detroit Diesel has not designed a engine in years is not true, where the men that I talked to paid actors? I put a call to my guy at DD today and asked him if Detroit America was still active in R & D and asked him about what you had said.... Well he said I guess the Germans are payin a lot of American engineers for nothin!!!

[MackMann85]

I'm guessing there has to be some engineering and design done on engines in the USA for mack and volvo otherwise 300 million wouldnt have been invested in the engine plant. I would assume detroit is in a similar situation and probably paccar too.

2011

Mack Celebrates 50 Years of Powertrain Assembly in Hagerstown

1.5 Million Square Foot Maryland Facility Opened in 1961

HAGERSTOWN, MD (May 4, 2011) – In a ceremony today at the plant in Hagerstown, MD, where its powertrain components have been assembled since 1961, Mack Trucks, Inc. paid tribute to the past, celebrated the present and cast a positive eye to the future.

In 1959, looking for a modern alternative to its existing engine, transmission and carrier facility in Plainfield, NJ, Mack decided to invest $45 million in a new one million square foot plant on 280 acres in Hagerstown. With construction complete, the first Mack engine rolled off the assembly line in 1961. As the company’s products have become more advanced over the years, so have the capabilities of the Hagerstown plant, thanks to continued investment and a commitment to excellence. Today, the facility is approximately 1.5 million square feet – the area of more than 30 football fields – with a high degree of robotics, automation and assembly controls helping ensure product quality. More than $300 million invested since 2001 alone has brought significant upgrades, like an Engine Development Lab used to provide customers with increasingly fuel-efficient engines – which today are the cleanest in the world in terms of regulated emissions.

One thing that hasn’t changed is the dedication of the employees working in the plant, or the value placed on their input. Employees regularly meet in small groups on the plant floor, working together on continuous improvement. The process is called kaizen, but what really matters are the results – competitive products built in the United States.

“For half a century, the heart of every Mack truck has originated in Hagerstown,” said Kevin Flaherty, Mack senior vice president, U.S. and Canada. “We’ve always been an integrated manufacturer, with engines, transmissions and axles specifically designed to work together. Delivering on the Mack brand promise of reliability, durability and application excellence starts with the powertrain – and our hats are off to everyone in Hagerstown as they celebrate this milestone.”

[GearheadGrrrl]

Not exactly a reliable source:

“For half a century, the heart of every Mack truck has originated in Hagerstown,” said Kevin Flaherty, Mack senior vice president, U.S. and Canada.

Says something of some of the current management that this exec managed to rise that high in management without knowing about the long history of "vendor" engines in Mack trucks that continues to this day. Given that some of Mack's top management doesn't even know the basic history or even current operations of the company, it's becoming hard to take anything that comes out of Mack/Volvo's PR operation seriously. Add in the recent flubs like putting a picture of the wrong engine in a PR, and it's getting to the point where Mack/Volvo might as well shut down their PR operations and let us run it. Granted, some of the banter in "odds and ends" might put off export buyers, but Volvo doesn't want them to know about Mack anyways...

[kscarbel]

I'm guessing there has to be some engineering and design done on engines in the USA for mack and volvo otherwise 300 million wouldnt have been invested in the engine plant. I would assume detroit is in a similar situation and probably paccar too.

2011

Mack Celebrates 50 Years of Powertrain Assembly in Hagerstown

1.5 Million Square Foot Maryland Facility Opened in 1961

HAGERSTOWN, MD (May 4, 2011) – In a ceremony today at the plant in Hagerstown, MD, where its powertrain components have been assembled since 1961, Mack Trucks, Inc. paid tribute to the past, celebrated the present and cast a positive eye to the future.

In 1959, looking for a modern alternative to its existing engine, transmission and carrier facility in Plainfield, NJ, Mack decided to invest $45 million in a new one million square foot plant on 280 acres in Hagerstown. With construction complete, the first Mack engine rolled off the assembly line in 1961. As the company’s products have become more advanced over the years, so have the capabilities of the Hagerstown plant, thanks to continued investment and a commitment to excellence. Today, the facility is approximately 1.5 million square feet – the area of more than 30 football fields – with a high degree of robotics, automation and assembly controls helping ensure product quality. More than $300 million invested since 2001 alone has brought significant upgrades, like an Engine Development Lab used to provide customers with increasingly fuel-efficient engines – which today are the cleanest in the world in terms of regulated emissions.

One thing that hasn’t changed is the dedication of the employees working in the plant, or the value placed on their input. Employees regularly meet in small groups on the plant floor, working together on continuous improvement. The process is called kaizen, but what really matters are the results – competitive products built in the United States.

“For half a century, the heart of every Mack truck has originated in Hagerstown,” said Kevin Flaherty, Mack senior vice president, U.S. and Canada. “We’ve always been an integrated manufacturer, with engines, transmissions and axles specifically designed to work together. Delivering on the Mack brand promise of reliability, durability and application excellence starts with the powertrain – and our hats are off to everyone in Hagerstown as they celebrate this milestone.”

Yes, Volvo invested in the former Mack Trucks Hagerstown powertrain facility to change it over to the production of Volvo D11, D13 and D16 engines, and Volvo I-Shift transmissions. Nothing for Americans to be proud of there. So what's your point? Do you think Volvo engines and transmissions are designed at this U.S. Volvo Powertrain production faciity? The fact of that matter is Volvo's core R&D is conducted in Sweden.

The media release is a sad affair. The only way the Swedes can present a politically correct twist on matters to an American audience is to dredge up the achievements of the former Mack Truck company. You'd really enjoy hearing the very different way Volvo discusses Mack as a Volvo brand in Sweden and the global market. And sadly, that's all the Mack name is now, an emblem on a Volvo chassis.

“For half a century, the heart of every Mack truck has originated in Hagerstown,” said Kevin Flaherty.

During that time, the Mack Trucks-owned plant produced Mack engines for Mack trucks. What's your point Flaherty? What's that got to do with the Volvo-owned Hagerstown Volvo Powertrain plant today that produces Volvo engines?

[kscarbel]

Not exactly a reliable source:

“For half a century, the heart of every Mack truck has originated in Hagerstown,” said Kevin Flaherty, Mack senior vice president, U.S. and Canada.

Says something of some of the current management that this exec managed to rise that high in management without knowing about the long history of "vendor" engines in Mack trucks that continues to this day. Given that some of Mack's top management doesn't even know the basic history or even current operations of the company, it's becoming hard to take anything that comes out of Mack/Volvo's PR operation seriously. Add in the recent flubs like putting a picture of the wrong engine in a PR, and it's getting to the point where Mack/Volvo might as well shut down their PR operations and let us run it. Granted, some of the banter in "odds and ends" might put off export buyers, but Volvo doesn't want them to know about Mack anyways...

Volvo Trucks North America's PR people have been leaving a regular trail of bloopers. Having run off most of the veteran Mack people (for daring to disagree with their new Swede bosses and their thought process), there are few people left that have an intimate knowledge of the former Mack Trucks (and the ones that remain are VERY much looking forward to retirement and life away from Volvo).

[rick harper]

Time marches on. Nothing stays the same. It will never be 1965 again. Accept reality. Move on.

[kscarbel]

I have to disagree with you here number one , the MB 4000 engine came to the US it was badged as the series 50 or 55 I don't remember which one it was but it was loaded with problems it was Detroit diesel America that put that engine on the map by using USA DDEC Technology, and if the German engineers are designing these motors they are using our technology the technology that they stole from Detroit diesel if they were that smart they would've had the jump on Detroit diesel years ago but in fact it was Detroit diesel that showed them how to build that diesel no other way they took our technology and they took the credit for it plane and simple you can say whatever, for you to say that Detroit Diesel has not designed a engine in years is not true, where the men that I talked to paid actors? I put a call to my guy at DD today and asked him if Detroit America was still active in R & D and asked him about what you had said.... Well he said I guess the Germans are payin a lot of American engineers for nothin!!!

You're right, the MB4000 wasn't a stellar engine in the US market. But truth be told, the OM471/472/473 (aka DD13/15/16) were designed in Germany. Of course Daimler's U.S. DD-badged unit is going to say they're still involved in R&D. There's such a thing having "face" before Daimler's US market customers. Daimler's U.S. people tweak the German engines for the US market, and one could put a stretch on that and call it engine R&D.......but I won't.

For DD to get on a good track with the 60 Series and then be bought by an overseas company, another US truck industry leader gone, is sad indeed.

[bbigrig]

You're right, the MB4000 wasn't a stellar engine in the US market. But truth be told, the OM471/472/473 (aka DD13/15/16) were designed in Germany. Of course Daimler's U.S. DD-badged unit is going to say they're still involved in R&D. There's such a thing having "face" before Daimler's US market customers. Daimler's U.S. people tweak the German engines for the US market, and one could put a stretch on that and call it engine R&D.......but I won't.

For DD to get on a good track with the 60 Series and then be bought by an overseas company, another US truck industry leader gone, is sad indeed.

For those who have seen or worked on any of the new DD series engines, its quite obvious with all the small prefabbed fuel lines, Banjo fittings, Block design etc... that the engine was designed for the most part with European influence. If you actually compared the DD series engines, PACCAR MX's, Volvo/Mack(/MP's and MAXXForce engines for Euro trash accessories and add-ons, The Volvo/Mack seems to have less European influenced crap hanging off them. (So I've seen) I know Engineers from Detroit as well. The ones I know say the American influence was about as equal to the roll out of the MBE's. Sure there was testing in North American trucks etc, for the most part the engine was ready to go when it came over on "The Boat"

[heavyhauler]

Move onto to what? The end of Mack Trucks in a build sense is very near. Marketing will continue with the usual BS but I fear its very close to the end. So it ain't so, Joe!

John

[bullhusk]

You're right, the MB4000 wasn't a stellar engine in the US market. But truth be told, the OM471/472/473 (aka DD13/15/16) were designed in Germany. Of course Daimler's U.S. DD-badged unit is going to say they're still involved in R&D. There's such a thing having "face" before Daimler's US market customers. Daimler's U.S. people tweak the German engines for the US market, and one could put a stretch on that and call it engine R&D.......but I won't.

For DD to get on a good track with the 60 Series and then be bought by an overseas company, another US truck industry leader gone, is sad indeed.

You and I are on the same page as far as the Euro's commin in and takin over and it is sad! But heres how it goes, I've been followin the Detroit 4 Cycle. since it was a brain child of John Deer an Detroit. I have been to there factory in Detroit about 5 or 6 times since 1993 (That all stopped after DB took over) I have been watching and buying there motors since 1993 DD II, most of my trucks have the 12.7 and the 14 liter I do have one MBE4000 and 2 DD15's and all are working well. Now It's the Germans that are tweaking our design and not the other way around! so here we go, the block on the new DD 15 & 16 is not rifeled for push rods cause it never had any (Series 60) The heads (there so- called new design) has a overhead cam and the valves are front to back and not left to right like other Diesel Mfg's (intake man. an exhhaust man. on same side as the valves)....(Series 60). Where any Mercedes engines designed this way before buying Detroit?? I think the only thing that is Merc. on these motors is there common rail fuel system off of the MB4000! All those designs are born outa the good old USA via Detroit via American engineering!!

BULLHUSK