Macks New Egr System

[joes mack]

have any of you all seen the new emissions set up on the 2011 granites what a crock of bull. the company that i work for just bought 4 we were talking to the local parts guy today and he really blowed my mind with the emissions fuel that the trucks use. i cant belive that burning piss is a good way to control emissions. the mix is 67.5% water and 23.5% uerea( which is piss) im not kidding look it up. this has just blowed my mind (which isnt much anyway).i wonder which volvo engineer got drunk and took a whiz in the fuel tank of one of the older trucks and found out that it would get more mileage before having to burn it off...joe

[rhasler]

have any of you all seen the new emissions set up on the 2011 granites what a crock of bull. the company that i work for just bought 4 we were talking to the local parts guy today and he really blowed my mind with the emissions fuel that the trucks use. i cant belive that burning piss is a good way to control emissions. the mix is 67.5% water and 23.5% uerea( which is piss) im not kidding look it up. this has just blowed my mind (which isnt much anyway).i wonder which volvo engineer got drunk and took a whiz in the fuel tank of one of the older trucks and found out that it would get more mileage before having to burn it off...joe

It's been in use in Europe for the last several years. It is also one of the emission control systems in use by power plants. It's too bad we have to have all the stuff on the trucks, hopefully it will be trouble free. On the plus side, all that emissions control equipment has allowed Mack and Volvo to increase the horsepower ratings on the engines. In 2007 the biggest MP8 rating was 485 hp, for 2010 the engine can be rated up to 505 hp. This increase is due to the fact that less EGR is used due to Urea injection. They have also "virtually eliminated" parked regens.

[joes mack]

they told us that the trucks should be good for at least 2 weeks mabey more between regens. joe

[ThaddeusW]

have any of you all seen the new emissions set up on the 2011 granites what a crock of bull. the company that i work for just bought 4 we were talking to the local parts guy today and he really blowed my mind with the emissions fuel that the trucks use. i cant belive that burning piss is a good way to control emissions. the mix is 67.5% water and 23.5% uerea( which is piss) im not kidding look it up. this has just blowed my mind (which isnt much anyway).i wonder which volvo engineer got drunk and took a whiz in the fuel tank of one of the older trucks and found out that it would get more mileage before having to burn it off...joe

Urea is there to eliminate the last of the nitrogen oxides that EGR combats in the combustion chamber. All that heat and pressure in the cylinders causes the oxygen to also form compounds with nitrogen which is poisonous and responsible for smog.

Urea mixed in with the exhaust gas will react with the NOx in the catalyst to produce Carbon dioxide, Nitrogen and Water. Those are relatively harmless in the atmosphere with the exception of carbon dioxide which is a greenhouse gas.

[RowdyRebel]

It's been in use in Europe for the last several years. It is also one of the emission control systems in use by power plants...

...which is why things will HOPEFULLY be less problematic with this go-around of emissions requirements, since it isn't a "new" technology that hasn't really been tested in real-world conditions. The only problem I see with it is the same as was experienced when the '07's came out and people with the DPF trucks couldn't always find a fuel stop that sold ULSD fuel. Heck, it was 3 years after the mandate and I was still seeing pumps marked "low-sulfur -- not for use in 2007 or newer engines" The exhaust fluid that is required on the SCR trucks isn't available at MOST of the fuel stops I tend to use, and the proprietors of those establishments won't likely stock it until there is a demand for it....and there won't be a demand for it until fleet owners are pretty sure they can buy the stuff. Kind of a catch-22.

[shortstack]

...which is why things will HOPEFULLY be less problematic with this go-around of emissions requirements, since it isn't a "new" technology that hasn't really been tested in real-world conditions. The only problem I see with it is the same as was experienced when the '07's came out and people with the DPF trucks couldn't always find a fuel stop that sold ULSD fuel. Heck, it was 3 years after the mandate and I was still seeing pumps marked "low-sulfur -- not for use in 2007 or newer engines" The exhaust fluid that is required on the SCR trucks isn't available at MOST of the fuel stops I tend to use, and the proprietors of those establishments won't likely stock it until there is a demand for it....and there won't be a demand for it until fleet owners are pretty sure they can buy the stuff. Kind of a catch-22.

You know, I really don't like all this emissions on trucks these days, but it's here to stay. On the plus side these new engines are good for the environment and maybe will satisfy all the tree huggers. I look at it like the passenger cars in the late 70's and early 80's. They had vacuum hoses everywhere and were a nightmare to work on. It wasn't long before most of the crap didn't work or people would by-pass it. Unfortunately that's not an option on trucks now, nor would you want to face the consequences if you got caught. The emissions on passenger cars is not a concern anymore since they figured it all out which I think is how trucks will be a few years from now. They'll eventually get it straightened out and it won't be an issue anymore, although I wouldn't really want a new one now(even if I could afford one!).

[joes mack]

the new trucks are allrite if the gov dont add new emission to truck makers in the near future they might get everything sorted out on them. they have got a good handle on things right now with the exception of a few problems that keep hapening with them. but the piss thing really throwed me for a loop. this is the first time that i have ever herd anything about it. guess i should watch more tv mabey modern marvels should do a show on the emissions of diesel engines in the near future. so hillbillys like me wont get freaked out like me about burning piss to help keep the emissions under control... joe

[rhasler]

the new trucks are allrite if the gov dont add new emission to truck makers in the near future they might get everything sorted out on them. they have got a good handle on things right now with the exception of a few problems that keep hapening with them. but the piss thing really throwed me for a loop. this is the first time that i have ever herd anything about it. guess i should watch more tv mabey modern marvels should do a show on the emissions of diesel engines in the near future. so hillbillys like me wont get freaked out like me about burning piss to help keep the emissions under control... joe

They may have to reintroduce Ripley's Believe It or Not, some of this stuff is off the wall!

[MackMann85]

You guys dont actually beleive diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) is piss do you? Yes, urine has urea in it, but that isn't what is used in DEF. Automotive grade urea is extracted from natural gas. The details of the process I dont know, but thats the truth! It's a shame that we have to go through all this emissions mess, but lets remember who is causing it, the EPA. I'm sure all the OEMs would love to not deal with DPFs and the like too!

As for finding DEF, I know that Pilot, Flying J, Loves, and Travel Center of America all will sell it. In a pinch all Mack, Volvo, Freightliner, Western Star, Cummins, Pete, and KW dealers and service locations will have it too. I was told to just keep a two gallon jug in the cab just in case becuase DEF is only used around 2% of diesel. (100 gal of diesel will burn about 2 gals of DEF) That 2 gallons could get you 5 or 600 miles to find a stop that sells it.

[Mackpro]

You guys dont actually beleive diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) is piss do you? Yes, urine has urea in it, but that isn't what is used in DEF. Automotive grade urea is extracted from natural gas. The details of the process I dont know, but thats the truth! It's a shame that we have to go through all this emissions mess, but lets remember who is causing it, the EPA. I'm sure all the OEMs would love to not deal with DPFs and the like too!

As for finding DEF, I know that Pilot, Flying J, Loves, and Travel Center of America all will sell it. In a pinch all Mack, Volvo, Freightliner, Western Star, Cummins, Pete, and KW dealers and service locations will have it too. I was told to just keep a two gallon jug in the cab just in case becuase DEF is only used around 2% of diesel. (100 gal of diesel will burn about 2 gals of DEF) That 2 gallons could get you 5 or 600 miles to find a stop that sells it.

On the Mack SCR website, somewhere on there it does talk about the DEF/urea being a byproduct of natural gas and that the price of natural gas will determine the cost of DEF. Our dealership has some onhand and also our local Ford car dealership has it instock all well (dont know why?).Our 2011 SCR trucks that we ordered are starting to show up now. All we have ordered is CHU's with 505HP MP8's.

[rhasler]

On the Mack SCR website, somewhere on there it does talk about the DEF/urea being a byproduct of natural gas and that the price of natural gas will determine the cost of DEF. Our dealership has some onhand and also our local Ford car dealership has it instock all well (dont know why?).Our 2011 SCR trucks that we ordered are starting to show up now. All we have ordered is CHU's with 505HP MP8's.

The DEF supply doesn't appear to be a problem here either. We just got some 55 gallon drums of it. The 505's seem to run pretty good and noise wise, at least it seems like it to me, are quieter than the 07' MP8's were.

[RowdyRebel]

As for finding DEF, I know that Pilot, Flying J, Loves, and Travel Center of America all will sell it.

I avoid those places like the plague. I look for the smaller, single-location type fuel stops...locally owned, locally operated....credit prices the same as cash prices (and STILL usually cheaper than the big chains). Most of 'em still let you refill your coffee mug for free with a fill-up, too...and if the DO charge you for it, it is $0.50-$0.75.....not the big-chain "let's-charge-starf*cks-prices-for-our-watered-down-coffee" arm & a leg. Shorter lines at the fuel desk. No Swift/JB/Schneider/etc. to tear your hood off while you are inside signing the fuel ticket. MOST of 'em even turn the pump on for you without you having to go inside to "prepay".

Unless I'm on the road away from home, not exactly where I ought to be in my coloring book, and don't know where to go to keep a time stamp off the fuel receipt, you won't see my truck at a big chain. As long as they have diesel pumps, I'll fuel up at the friggin' Kroger or Wal-Mart before I'll pull into a Pilot, TA, Loves, or Flying J.

[bts-4120]

Urea is fertilizer 44% Nitrogen we have had tractors with SCR for 2 years now no problems with the system, and its quite a bit easier on fuel than the exact same motor with a EGR DEF is easily found, all else fails go to AGCO, MF, or Case IH the 2011 Powerstroke and DMax use the stuff too, so its going to as common as windshield washing fluid here pretty soon only down side I see is higher fertilizer prices coming down the pipe

[MP8]

Urea is fertilizer 44% Nitrogen we have had tractors with SCR for 2 years now no problems with the system, and its quite a bit easier on fuel than the exact same motor with a EGR DEF is easily found, all else fails go to AGCO, MF, or Case IH the 2011 Powerstroke and DMax use the stuff too, so its going to as common as windshield washing fluid here pretty soon only down side I see is higher fertilizer prices coming down the pipe

We have been using SCR & EGR D13 in Australia since 2008 (when we went to US04 emissions) in Volvo product and just EGR with Mack MP8. Next year we go to US07 & Mack will drop EGR all together in Australia - bar Cummins 15 litre. The MP8 will be a pure SCR engine (no EGR) rated at 535hp. There are prototype Titans runnig now with MP10 SCR at 700hp - the test units may be even screwed out a bit more than that - probably will be released in 2012. The US should have never gone to EGR until US10, and just used SCR until then. US04/07 SCR engines are basically well tuned pre US04 spec - nice clean efficient fuel burn / no soot and the NOx gets wiped out in the exhaust pipe. I am guessing you could have got a E7 to meet US04 & probably 07 if you went to SCR not EGR. Our expereince over here is SCR D13 @ 520hp is heaps more reliable than a MP8/D13 EGR at 500hp. All the bolt on crap goes wrong - coolers, VGTs, fan hubs, injector tubes, sensors etc. Whereas with a SCR motor - no VGT, no coolers, no bigger fan / radiator - just a tank, small pump, injector & 2 sensors in the exhaust = less can go wrong. BUying / filling up with urea is a real inconvenience. But it is less inconvenient than having your truck break down all the time. Most owners have 1000 litre tanks in their yard.

[joes mack]

today i got to drive one of the new trucks and the thing is awesome for just 20 more hp it feels like a 100 and the engine brake is alot stronger than the 2010s they bought 2mos ago. but the best part is the fuel consumpion( i guess thats spelled right) i hauled the same amount of loads as the 2010s and it used about 25 gal less fuel. joe

[rhasler]

We have been using SCR & EGR D13 in Australia since 2008 (when we went to US04 emissions) in Volvo product and just EGR with Mack MP8. Next year we go to US07 & Mack will drop EGR all together in Australia - bar Cummins 15 litre. The MP8 will be a pure SCR engine (no EGR) rated at 535hp. There are prototype Titans runnig now with MP10 SCR at 700hp - the test units may be even screwed out a bit more than that - probably will be released in 2012. The US should have never gone to EGR until US10, and just used SCR until then. US04/07 SCR engines are basically well tuned pre US04 spec - nice clean efficient fuel burn / no soot and the NOx gets wiped out in the exhaust pipe. I am guessing you could have got a E7 to meet US04 & probably 07 if you went to SCR not EGR. Our expereince over here is SCR D13 @ 520hp is heaps more reliable than a MP8/D13 EGR at 500hp. All the bolt on crap goes wrong - coolers, VGTs, fan hubs, injector tubes, sensors etc. Whereas with a SCR motor - no VGT, no coolers, no bigger fan / radiator - just a tank, small pump, injector & 2 sensors in the exhaust = less can go wrong. BUying / filling up with urea is a real inconvenience. But it is less inconvenient than having your truck break down all the time. Most owners have 1000 litre tanks in their yard.

I think what Mack/Volvo (and maybe all of the OEMS) did was to introduce parts of the new emission controls in different markets in order to "guage" their effectiveness. EGR and DPF in the US, SCR in Europe. I'm not sure about that, but it kind of makes sense. The way they talk now the EGR is almost non existant on the new engines, in other words it is hardly necessary. It must be nice to get that kind of power out of the MP8. I also heard, several years ago, that the E-Tech engine would have been US10 compliant with only the addition of the SCR system. This was long before the concept of the DPF was even being discussed openly, I think probably around the time of the first EGR engines.

[Mackpro]

We sold our 1st SCR truck today. It wasnt on the lot for a week. The guy took a test drive and the 505 HP made the sale easy. Started putting on the PTO and extra chrome this afternoon. Our sleeper truck CHU 505HP will be here any day, it was a custom order and is of course sold.

[rhasler]

We sold our 1st SCR truck today. It wasnt on the lot for a week. The guy took a test drive and the 505 HP made the sale easy. Started putting on the PTO and extra chrome this afternoon. Our sleeper truck CHU 505HP will be here any day, it was a custom order and is of course sold.

I think we're on our sixth 2010 truck, so far so good. Far fewer problems than we saw on the 2007's

[Mackpro]

I think we're on our sixth 2010 truck, so far so good. Far fewer problems than we saw on the 2007's

Thats what our DSM is also saying. The only problem I'm hearing is the DEF pump but Mack already has thoses in Reman.

[wastenafarmtrucking]

You guys dont actually beleive diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) is piss do you? Yes, urine has urea in it, but that isn't what is used in DEF. Automotive grade urea is extracted from natural gas. The details of the process I dont know, but thats the truth! It's a shame that we have to go through all this emissions mess, but lets remember who is causing it, the EPA. I'm sure all the OEMs would love to not deal with DPFs and the like too!

As for finding DEF, I know that Pilot, Flying J, Loves, and Travel Center of America all will sell it. In a pinch all Mack, Volvo, Freightliner, Western Star, Cummins, Pete, and KW dealers and service locations will have it too. I was told to just keep a two gallon jug in the cab just in case becuase DEF is only used around 2% of diesel. (100 gal of diesel will burn about 2 gals of DEF) That 2 gallons could get you 5 or 600 miles to find a stop that sells it.

i noticed that advance auto also carries the "exhaust piss".

[mp8_macky]

i want to share my experience with dpf egr def problems.

i own a fleet of 9 MP8 trucks, some of them are 2009, and some 2012. that means some of them are equipped with dpf egr, and some have def too.

it's been a nightmare for me to run those trucks with constant failures of dpf egr def.

so what i did, and what made my business running, is i went online and found a company called ecm tuneups.

their web site is http://truckecmtunes.com/ . i contacted the guy, and he is providing his service through his authorized dealers only. that didn't work for me, since i didn't want anyone to know that my trucks are deleted. i asked him can i be set as a dealer, he said yes but i would have to wire money up front for every truck i did(according to what he said all new dealers have to work like that), and i would have to buy some equipment.

i bought a laptop for $250, and a nexiq adapter for $300. he installed the software for diagnostic, and did a first tune for me.

after that i put a 5" hole in center of the filter, and blocked off egr (both sides he insisted on that).

result was OMG good. totally different truck. more power, no regens, no derates. everything worked well.

i gained apx. .9 MPG.

what i am saying is, that this saved my business. this guy is hard to reach, because as i said he works with his dealers only, but with some insisting he can make you a dealer.

or if you have one truck, you can just tell him your location and he will forward you to existing dealer.

if you have a fleet, it is a lot cheaper to become a dealer (i saved apx.$2000 a truck because i did all the work my self, and it only takes 2hrs to do the work).

i hope this message will help other guys in need.

[Marcel67]

We keep having issues on 2012 Volvo d13 engines with Nox sensors doser valve and def pumps that's will d rate the truck to 5 mph. We had another one today $2000 repair. We know some guys that disconnected tegr cooler and whole urea and SCR system and running better fuel mileage and liess issues.