Cracked Frame

[Rob]

To replace the rails is a pretty big job. I would remove the box First so you have room to work. then you want to put it on very level ground and use lots of jack stands that can support the weight so the truck and the drivetrain. I would figure 2 guys can get all the bolts out in a day and Hopefully have it ready to pull the following. If you can get stock rails that have the holes pre drilled your golden. If that is the case than all you need to do is remove the bolts slide it out,drill a few holes for any of the aftermarket items. and slide in the new rail. figure a solid week if you can work on it for 8-10 hrs every day and run into few issues. I Never have done a rail job but have taken a truck down to the rails a few times. I think the hardest part will be supporting the truck when the rail is unbolted. Also Check and see if this truck has huck bolts. if it does I cant comment as I have never removed hucks.

I've done a few rails over the years. On "Huckbolts" you don't take those loose, just zip through them with a 5" grinder and a .045", (3/32nds) disc. Knock the slug out with a punch.

On this job I'd look at vertically splitting and peeling off the outer rail about 18" each direction of the crack. Then I'd split and peel the center rail about 12" each side of the crack. Then "deep vee" both sides of the inner rail and using a flux cored, gas shielded wire and after a vertical down root pass, I'd vertical up weave a double pass on both sides, stress relieve the area, and grind it smooth on the surface that will mate against anything. I would then do the same on a replacement section for the center rail, (of course only on the outside), and once again the same on the final outer rail. As mentioned, you need a crossmember in there which is lacking.

Color indicating crayons are a valuable tool when post treating weldments for proper metalurgical properties. A rosebud tip is a great tool to use for this. The cooling rate is controlled by tip distance.

Practice makes perfect.

Rob

[jeffl1107]

Hey Guys,

Well about the cross members. There is 1 cross member about 16 inches in front of the crack. It is just behind where the mounting bracket is for the dump body ram. On the other side of the crack, going towards the back, there is a cross member about 2 1/2 feet behind crack. And no, the fish plate that someone else had put in there that is still there, is cut to fit in between those 2 cross members. In order to get a piece that extends past each of those two cross members, I guess that would mean I would have to take them out, cut them down the thickness of whatever plate I would use and weld them back together???

I did find out that I was wrong about the price on the rails. I was told by some dumb a** that they were $1500. They are $3500 for ones from Mack Dealer. I took a long look at the truck today. My only problem would be getting the dump body off. That is not in my capability at my house. This thing is driving me crazy. I just dont have the cash to go out and buy another truck. I either have to figure a way to get this fixed right or try and sell it off to get into another truck. Dont know what I should do. It sucks cause I have plenty of work for the truck, just dont know if it is going to give me a problem. The only good thing I have going is that when I have a load on, when the lift axle is down, it is actually supporting that cracked area as the bracket for it is almost dead center of the crack. My only problem is trying to keep the truck from bouncing around when I get to the dump site loaded where I cant have the lift axle down.

I would like somehow to get this welded up so it is ok but if I have to replace the rails, I will have to seriously think whether the truck is worth it or not. Right now it is my livelihood, but replacing the rails is a good deal of money and a good deal of down time, which neither of them I can afford.

[theakerstwo]

Instead of cutting on crossmenbers i would put a inter rail in it and for as the other crossmenbers that is not on the inter rail make a spacer plate same thickness as the inter rail and put behind the other crossmenbers.

[Underdog]

When considering cost of the job, you also must consider the cost of NOT doing anything to fix this problem. Think of the cost of downtime, towing, legal liability and you still have to fix it after a major failure. Not to mention any injury or property damage.

If you are not confident in your ability to do this yourself, you must bite the bullet and get the rails replaced professionally. I know it will be expensive, but if it were my truck it would be going to TransEdge Mack in Allentown, PA. The job will be done right and minimize downtime in order to get back to work ASAP to pay for it.

If you sell the truck, you must be honest and forthcoming with any buyer. If not, you are just as bad as the guy that sold it to you. You will probably lose money trying to sell it as is, so IMHO your money is best put to use fixing it the right way.

Gregg

[bobo]

"There is 1 cross member about 16 inches in front of the crack. It is just behind where the mounting bracket is for the dump body ram. On the other side of the crack, going towards the back, there is a cross member about 2 1/2 feet behind crack."

No matter what you do, or how you go about fixing the problem. IF YOU DONT put cross members in the right spot over the lift, IT WILL CRACK AGAIN! doesnt matter if you replace the rails, fish plate, put inner rail and or weld. SO spend the money fix it right, spend more money to prevent it from happing again!

DONT PUT THE CARRAGE IN FRONT OF THE HORSE! THINK ABOUT WHAT MADE IT CRACK NOT JUST HOW TO FIX THE CRACK! BOBO

sorry not trying to beat a dead horse

[BAD DOG]

I'd have to agree with Bobo on this one. If you change rails or just weld it up and fish plate it you need to move that crossmember so it it in between your hangers. The way it is now is causing your frame to flex at your hangers causing it to crack. If you put the crossmember in between the hangers it will stiffen the frame at the hangers allowing it to flex in front and behind you axle, instead of at the hangers where your pressure point is on your framerail. You need a crossmember between suspension hangers wheather it's a lift or a drive axle so your framerails can flex where the need to, so move that crossmember no matter what this should prevent it from breaking again after you fix you crack.

[jeffl1107]

You all have good suggestions. I have a guy that is welding something in but as you all think, and same with me, dont think what he is doing is near enough. I tried to get it threw his head that I could have upwards of 28 ton of material in the body and the added factor of the lift axle being right where the crack is going up and down constantly. I have adjusted my psi to 45 now. I just dont have the money right now to do a complete rail changeout. Mack dealer said it would probably be around $11,000. I know there are guys out there that can fix this problem, but finding them here in NJ seems to be like finding a needle in a haystack. There are a few guys that seem to talk a good game, but I dont think they have had experience with doing this. The welder doing some work now wants to weld in a 3/4" thick elongated diamond shape on the inner rail. He said that is how they do it when they stretch frames. But just doing that I told him is not enough. I was wondering if that was done, then adding a piece of C channel the next size bigger on the outside of frame on both sides to be bolted on and tied into the crossmemebers, if that would do the trick. I dont have the welder or the expertise to do this, and just cannot seem to find anyone that I trust to repair this once and for all. Maybe even purchase a crossmember from Mack and add that right in the middle of where the lift axle bracket bolts on. I mean I know there are guys out there that stretch big truck frames. Has to be someone around that can fix this correctly

[Joe Cummings]

You bolt fishplates in using "body bond" bolts, or else huck bolts. The body bound bolts are actually a press fit in both the frame rail and in the fish plate.

I can hook you up with a guy who can fix those rails. His name is Eugene Evans and he is in philly near ontairio and richmond.

My number is on my website www.cummingshauling.com Best way to catch me is to call the 201 number. I'll hook you up with his number.

BTW, Where's Ketter? I know he can fix frame rails too, but he is far far away in the land of lousy pizza lmao

[cgallamore]

i have been around heavy zone dumptrucks all my life. when your talking 90,000 lbs. plus on a straight truck, a patched frame will not hold.

every body says they can fix it, or they know sombody that can. i have never seen it work.

i bet everyone that says they seen it work, it was just long enough to get rid of it.

you can patch it till you can afford to fix it. but without replacing the rails its only a patch.

[Joe Cummings]

I have no doubt that I personally can fix frame rails, I've done it many times in the past and never had a problem. Please don't pass judgement on my abilities without knowing anything about me. I'm just trying to help the guy by sending him to someone that can handle it.

I have no personal interest in the job, I'm busy as hell with bridge repairs right now.

I'm sure Eugene could care less if the guy comes to his shop or not. A couple thousand dollar frame repair isn't going to make or break him either.

BTW, If you find yourself a Mack repair manual from the 60's or 70's (the old manual that was a single bound volume) there is a guide in the front about how to properly repair truck frame rails. Follow what the guide says and it won't break.

[oldmacktrucks]

Hey Guys,

Well about the cross members. There is 1 cross member about 16 inches in front of the crack. It is just behind where the mounting bracket is for the dump body ram. On the other side of the crack, going towards the back, there is a cross member about 2 1/2 feet behind crack. And no, the fish plate that someone else had put in there that is still there, is cut to fit in between those 2 cross members. In order to get a piece that extends past each of those two cross members, I guess that would mean I would have to take them out, cut them down the thickness of whatever plate I would use and weld them back together???

I did find out that I was wrong about the price on the rails. I was told by some dumb a** that they were $1500. They are $3500 for ones from Mack Dealer. I took a long look at the truck today. My only problem would be getting the dump body off. That is not in my capability at my house. This thing is driving me crazy. I just dont have the cash to go out and buy another truck. I either have to figure a way to get this fixed right or try and sell it off to get into another truck. Dont know what I should do. It sucks cause I have plenty of work for the truck, just dont know if it is going to give me a problem. The only good thing I have going is that when I have a load on, when the lift axle is down, it is actually supporting that cracked area as the bracket for it is almost dead center of the crack. My only problem is trying to keep the truck from bouncing around when I get to the dump site loaded where I cant have the lift axle down.

I would like somehow to get this welded up so it is ok but if I have to replace the rails, I will have to seriously think whether the truck is worth it or not. Right now it is my livelihood, but replacing the rails is a good deal of money and a good deal of down time, which neither of them I can afford.

If you cant afford the down time, or afford to fix the truck the right way maybe you should just pull the plates off it and forget about being an owner operator, and just go drive for someone. I mean really guys your talking about a Jersey 10 wheeler running 20 plus ton with a chassis thats ready to split in half at any time...fish plates, nuts and bolts, jerry rigged weld jobs =an accident waiting to happen. Someones wife and kids could be next to this truck as it fails going down the road. I for one think this truck needs to be put out of service, and the owner should be fined to the max for running it in this condition, I'm sorry if this is offensive but the guy is running the truck knowing its breaking in half.

The only good thing I have going is that when I have a load on, when the lift axle is down, it is actually supporting that cracked area as the bracket for it is almost dead center of the crack. My only problem is trying to keep the truck from bouncing around when I get to the dump site loaded where I cant have the lift axle down....Tell that to the accident victims family when they ask why did this have to happen. I'm done, SORRY GUYS BUT I HAD TO SPEAK MY MIND -Sean J. Kelly *Owner Operator*

[Joe Cummings]

You guys that can't fix a frame rail are funny.

It used to be that replacing one side frame rail on a single frame tractor was about a 40 man hour project for a good man.

Add to that a double frame, lift axle, and dump body, and you are probably talking 60 + man hours worth of work if nothing else goes wrong. at $100 @ hour and after you add in all the hardware and consumables, plus 3,500 for the frame rails. Well that 11 G number sounds about right. plus you are going to probably lose the truck for a couple of weeks, so add another 5 or 10 g to that number in lost revenue.

Suddenly a couple of grand and 2 days downtime is starting to look like a good idea

The guy isn't doing a restoration, he's fixing a working truck.

[GreenGiant2]

if this is done right and by someone that has experience doing this sort of stuff you shouldnt have any worry. i have a customer that has a scrap bus. and has tri axle macks from the 80's and 90's and comes acrossed the scale at 110,000 pounds. he has broken rails before but when his welder is done splicing the rails they are better than the factory ones.

newer frame rails also have a higher tensile strenght than old ones. the rails need to be spliced in a (zee) pattern and stagered. you may need to drop your gross weight, what is your gross now. every one has an idea , but you need to weigh the options and be comfortable with the decision. if possible i would add a third frame rail inside if you have the space.but by doing so will take away from the weight you can haul.

gg2

[rhasler]

I have to agree with Sean, and others, that if you cannot or will not fix the problem, then you're in the wrong business.

That being said, Joe Cummings, and others, are also correct in saying that frames can be repaired. Attached to my post is a scanned copy of the manual pages he referred to. This is from an older manual, but the more current manual 14-103 describes basically the same repair procedures.

TS442 Frame Repair.pdf

[Joe Cummings]

Thanks for the file. I was looking for my copy to scan and upload, but not sure where it is lol. I was thinking they dropped it from the somewhat newer (in the ring binders) manual

[Speed]

"i hate steerable, they will f#$k you up trying to back up in the soft stuff.

as son as they touch anything they turn sidways and dig in.

i don't think they make a 22,000 steerable..."

I wonder why someone hasn't engineered a solenoid operated air0lock for steerables that would be triggered by either a toggle switch or the back-up lights. It'd lock the wheels straight. Might not be too hard to wire a light on the dash so the driver knows when it's locked.

Speed

[Joe Cummings]

A good thing to remember for repairing/designing frame rails, or bridge beams is,,,,,,,

Avoid abrupt change in section, in areas of high moment

BTW 45LMSWM, I was bidding on your truck at a Vilsmeir auction down in South Jersey back in like 86, It looked pretty good but it was sitting front axle on the ground. Someone had taken the steering rubber off of it

[slpwlker]

I'm running 100 psi in my lift axle. that usually about 18 to 20k on the axle. some states I have to leave it down or use my outside controls and then I can't lift from the inside. Heavy Haul is different then a Rock bucket but you might try 60psi or if you got a cat scale near you when loaded and if you got the wb pull your steer off and put your lift on the steer pad and leave your drives on the drive pad. or weigh it normally and then come back and put the steer and lift on the pad and just subtract the difference. I can't see the pic so I do not know if it is a steerable or solid.if they allow 20 on the steer back off alittle on the pressure and roll the weight forward. When I run 20 on my steer i have to cut my axle to roughly 90 psi to roll enough forward with my 5th right in between the front drive and lift. you might want to think of fixing and selling.