Vertical Integration

[daveigou]

Vertical Integration, if you don’t know what it means, look it up.

Like it or not, the truck manufacturers are all headed in that direction. In the past, Mack offered vendor engines and components for two reasons, to cover gaps in their own product offerings, and because the “market” demanded it.

The big engine headaches started with EPA mandated EGR, then came the after treatment systems, the dreaded DPF, and now SCR. All engine manufacturers struggled with reliability issues. Mack had their share of problems, but so did Caterpillar, Cummins and Detroit. One thing about Mack, when you took your truck back to the dealer, the “buck” stopped there. You weren’t told “that’s a Cat problem” or a “Cummins problem”.

In Mack’s case, there are now three families of MP engines, with the broadest horsepower offerings ever. Mack is bringing new transmissions (Mdrive) and axles (150, 151 series carriers) to market.

One dealer organization, one manufacturer, one parts distribution system, one factory service rep.

The days of the “custom engineered, you select the brand engine & components you want” are numbered. All the manufactures are heading in that direction, some more cautiously than others, not wanting to offend their customer base, but they know if they want to stay competitive, that’s their future too.

Have you bought any Peterbilt parts lately? They have re-structured their parts numbering system to make it more difficult if not impossible to cross Peterbilt proprietary part numbers over to generic vendor parts numbers. Vertical Integration. Makes you more dependant on your dealer, makes it difficult if not impossible to shop for the best price.

While it may be true you can still get “vendor” engines in some manufacturers trucks, you will be paying a premium for that option. Truck manufacturers will want to be competitively priced with their own engines, and they’re going to soak you for anything else.

As technology gets more and more sophisticated, truck manufacturers will be more and more integrated with engine electronic controls, transmission electronic controls, stability controls and more. Like it or not, the automated mechanical transmissions will become the “standard”, even in light and medium duty vehicles, because of stricter fuel economy standards, both on the part of the owner that needs it to stay competitive, and federal mandates coming down the road.

All this being said, now is a transition time, manufacturers are “strategizing” for position in the market,

And if you sit back and look at the big picture, Mack and Volvo appear to be in a good position going forward. The Mack MP engine, performance, reliability and fuel economy has nothing to be ashamed of.

[rhasler]

I think Cummins will still remain a player, though likely in a lesser role than in the past, and mainly as a supplier of some of the engine subsystems such as turbos and DPFs.

[rw613]

I think Cummins will still remain a player, though likely in a lesser role than in the past, and mainly as a supplier of some of the engine subsystems such as turbos and DPFs.

the new mack is easier to work on than any of the others

[drg]

Hi just going to add my 2 cents with my limited knowledge. I've owned 5 Macks through the years and drove several others with very little engine problems. The one thing I would make available on the over the road trucks would be more power and torque as with the 460's I've struggled with our higher Canadian weights. I'm hoping with the new MP engines this will be changed.

[GearheadGrrrl]

The one thing I would make available on the over the road trucks would be more power and torque as with the 460's I've struggled with our higher Canadian weights. I'm hoping with the new MP engines this will be changed.

Volvo doesn't get it... 13 liters and 505 horses doesn't move 63.5 metric tons very well. Mack needs the MP10 and it's 600+ horses in Canada, and with a sleeper that will fit in the 5 meter envelope Canada allows (25 meter overall length, 20 meter trailers length). Canada is as big or bigger a market than Australia, and should get at least as much attention!

[Lmackattack]

Always felt that Mack has fallen short in the HP war. the E9 was the last of the "big dogs" and in todays standards the E9 is outdated (in stock form) I think the MP line is making its way forward but I think there is a few gaps to be filled towards the top of the HP games.

[rhasler]

Always felt that Mack has fallen short in the HP war. the E9 was the last of the "big dogs" and in todays standards the E9 is outdated (in stock form) I think the MP line is making its way forward but I think there is a few gaps to be filled towards the top of the HP games.

The MP engines are quite capable of putting out high horsepower. A few years back the D16 was putting out 650 HP.

[Register c]

D16G now does 700hp at Euro5 or US07 for Volvo

So should you get ready for a big hp Titan???

13 litre does 535hp in Mack in Oz..

Very capable of B-double 68,000 kg

[MackMann85]

Have you driven a new 505 to compare it to a 460? I have heard very positive things. The euro certified engines that europe and australia can use dont need egr so their is less heat rejection and the HP can be turned up somewhat so I dont think we'll get those higher number in north america

[Mackpro]

You can get an MP-8 in 555HP but only in a Titan, The Mp8 505 HP's I have driven have been awesome. The Mp8 555 in a Titan would be a weight saver compaired to the MP10 which has only 50 more horses.

[MackMann85]

You can only get an MP10 in a Titan, not an MP8. That is fact. Titan power goes from 515-605 horses including a 555 but its in a MP10 not 8 sorry.

[Mackpro]

You can only get an MP10 in a Titan, not an MP8. That is fact. Titan power goes from 515-605 horses including a 555 but its in a MP10 not 8 sorry.

You are correct. A few months back on Dealer Portal there was a Data sheet or a SED letter that was incorrect, me and my boss both saw it listing a MP8 555HP for the TD, he looked into it and found it was a typo but I never checked it out any further.

[EM6285]

I think Cummins will still remain a player, though likely in a lesser role than in the past, and mainly as a supplier of some of the engine subsystems such as turbos and DPFs.

I do not think CUMMINS will have a lesser role than in the past.

As it is for today CUMMINS is the mayor DIESEL ENGINE suplier to the SCHOOL BUS market as it is the "engine partner" of both BLUE BIRD CORPORATION and THOMAS BUILT BUSES. THOMAS BUILT BUSES is a parent company of FREIGHTLINER TRUCKS and the DAIMLER TRUCK GROUP. THOMAS BUILT BUSES opted for CUMMINS engines instead of its parent company offerings of DETROIT DIESEL and MERCEDES BENZ DIESEL engines. And now with CATERPILLAR out of the market CUMMINS have capitalized the SCHOOL BUS market to become the mayor DIESEL ENGINE provider for that aplications.

CUMMINS will be a mayor DIESEL ENGINE provider for the PACCAR group (KENWORTH and PETERBILT) as the "PACCAR PX ENGINE SERIES" are nothing but rebadged CUMMINS DIESELS. Lets seee how this one will work as most of the KENWORTH and PETERBILT loyal customers were devoted to the CATERPILLAR DIESEL ENGINE on their trucks.

CUMMINS will still provide the 6.7 DIESEL for the DODGE RAM truck.

So CUMMINS is still a player.

CATERPILLAR in the other hand is a sad story wit a sad ending. CAT TRUCKS give me a break!!!

[rhasler]

I do not think CUMMINS will have a lesser role than in the past.

As it is for today CUMMINS is the mayor DIESEL ENGINE suplier to the SCHOOL BUS market as it is the "engine partner" of both BLUE BIRD CORPORATION and THOMAS BUILT BUSES. THOMAS BUILT BUSES is a parent company of FREIGHTLINER TRUCKS and the DAIMLER TRUCK GROUP. THOMAS BUILT BUSES opted for CUMMINS engines instead of its parent company offerings of DETROIT DIESEL and MERCEDES BENZ DIESEL engines. And now with CATERPILLAR out of the market CUMMINS have capitalized the SCHOOL BUS market to become the mayor DIESEL ENGINE provider for that aplications.

CUMMINS will be a mayor DIESEL ENGINE provider for the PACCAR group (KENWORTH and PETERBILT) as the "PACCAR PX ENGINE SERIES" are nothing but rebadged CUMMINS DIESELS. Lets seee how this one will work as most of the KENWORTH and PETERBILT loyal customers were devoted to the CATERPILLAR DIESEL ENGINE on their trucks.

CUMMINS will still provide the 6.7 DIESEL for the DODGE RAM truck.

So CUMMINS is still a player.

CATERPILLAR in the other hand is a sad story wit a sad ending. CAT TRUCKS give me a break!!!

I think I would have to agree with that. I wasn't thinking about their involvement in the school bus market.

[EM6285]

I think I would have to agree with that. I wasn't thinking about their involvement in the school bus market.

CUMMINS INC put their 2010 EPA ONLY EGR vs its own 2010 EPA SCR technologies. The SCR turned out to be the best one for the customers. Don't really know why THOMAS BUILT BUSES opted for CUMMINS DIESEL for their SCHOOL BUSES when they are part of the DAIMLER TRUCK GROUP wich has DETROIT DIESEL and MERCEDEZ BENZ DIESEL. Maybe is because there wasn't enough time for both to DESIGN an SCR engine for their SCHOOL BUS partner.

And do not forget about other markets for CUMMINS DIESELS such as BIG RVs and FIRE TRUCKS!!!

Only thing though is that I do not want a CUMMINS on my MACKS

[b61mack]

CUMMINS INC put their 2010 EPA ONLY EGR vs its own 2010 EPA SCR technologies. The SCR turned out to be the best one for the customers. Don't really know why THOMAS BUILT BUSES opted for CUMMINS DIESEL for their SCHOOL BUSES when they are part of the DAIMLER TRUCK GROUP wich has DETROIT DIESEL and MERCEDEZ BENZ DIESEL. Maybe is because there wasn't enough time for both to DESIGN an SCR engine for their SCHOOL BUS partner.

And do not forget about other markets for CUMMINS DIESELS such as BIG RVs and FIRE TRUCKS!!!

Only thing though is that I do not want a CUMMINS on my MACKS

Case construction equipment and CASE-IH tractors has been using Cummins for a few years.

[bts-4120]

Case construction equipment and CASE-IH tractors has been using Cummins for a few years.

yes but since being merged with New Holland which ia owned by Fiat, they are dropping Cummins for Iveco motors, which Fiat owns

[rhasler]

yes but since being merged with New Holland which ia owned by Fiat, they are dropping Cummins for Iveco motors, which Fiat owns

I think Cummins still supplies turbos to Iveco.