Waylon Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I have a 2000 CH613 with a 460 and I can't get it to start. I was wondering if I could swap the ECU and VECU off a 1999 CH613 with a 427 in it just to see if that's my problem.Thanks Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have a 2000 CH613 with a 460 and I can't get it to start. I was wondering if I could swap the ECU and VECU off a 1999 CH613 with a 427 in it just to see if that's my problem.ThanksYou should be able to do that, as long as they're both Pre-CCRS or CCRS it shouldn't be a problem. Pre-CCRS engines have a fuel return line (small plastic line) from the head to the block, CCRS engines do not have this line. It may not run quite right if the modules from the 1999 have service files. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-72988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 You should be able to do that, as long as they're both Pre-CCRS or CCRS it shouldn't be a problem. Pre-CCRS engines have a fuel return line (small plastic line) from the head to the block, CCRS engines do not have this line. It may not run quite right if the modules from the 1999 have service files.They are both Pre-CCRS. I changed them over last night and it still wouldn't start. With the old ECU & VCU there was no fault codes but after I changed them I now get fault codes 13, 21, 23. I have read some of your posts on here were you have helped out others with the same problem and followed alot of your troubleshooting steps. I have checked continuity on all wires, cleaned all grounds, checked fuel pressure and rechecked valve settings. I'm not sure of anything else that I can do and I'm about ready to tow it to the dealer. If you have any suggestions I would really appreciate the help.Thanks Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 They are both Pre-CCRS. I changed them over last night and it still wouldn't start. With the old ECU & VCU there was no fault codes but after I changed them I now get fault codes 13, 21, 23. I have read some of your posts on here were you have helped out others with the same problem and followed alot of your troubleshooting steps. I have checked continuity on all wires, cleaned all grounds, checked fuel pressure and rechecked valve settings. I'm not sure of anything else that I can do and I'm about ready to tow it to the dealer. If you have any suggestions I would really appreciate the help.ThanksTry starting it with the camshaft sensor unplugged, if it won't start that way plug it back in and unplug the flywheel position sensor. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Try starting it with the camshaft sensor unplugged, if it won't start that way plug it back in and unplug the flywheel position sensor.Tryed that and still won't start, doesn't even smoke. I took the elbow out of the block for the fuel return and the check valve in it was ceased so I got it working and put it back together and still won't start.When I had the return line elbow out of the block I pumped the hand primer and had fuel coming out the return. Is that normal? I don't have any fuel coming out of the small return line or in the fuel bridge between the heads.I also switched fuel pumps with a truck that was running fine. Edited February 16, 2011 by Waylon Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Tryed that and still won't start, doesn't even smoke. I took the elbow out of the block for the fuel return and the check valve in it was ceased so I got it working and put it back together and still won't start.When I had the return line elbow out of the block I pumped the hand primer and had fuel coming out the return. Is that normal? I don't have any fuel coming out of the small return line or in the fuel bridge between the heads.I also switched fuel pumps with a truck that was running fine.[/quote]Did you bleed the fuel lines to the head ?Some times they can be ornery ! pump the primer with lines loose till ya get fuel at least two cylinders and crank the engine right away! Try that and see what happens!Seems to me with either or one of the to position sencors unpluged it should have had an active code! if so then the ecu is awhere of its suroundings!Try the fuel bleed thing just for kicks! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 I've tryed bleeding it like that a couple of times. Always get quite a bit air then lots of steady fuel. I've done it at all 6 lines. It did read the proper fault codes for each sensor while they were unpluged. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have over 100psi going to the block. Is there any way to test the unit pumps to see if they're working properly? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 What happened to the engine? Did it just stop running or was there some kind of repair being done to it? As far as I know there isn't a real way to check the solenoids on the EUPs, but if they weren't working properly you should get fault codes for them. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 The engine dropped a valve in it about 3 years ago and we decided to do an inframe on it. The guy that started to rebuild it for me got sick. He got as far as putting in the sleeves and pistons and heads back on and it has been a basket case untill a couple of weeks ago untill I had time to put it back together myself. He had already done the valve settings on it so I pulled the covers and checked it out and everything seemed to be good. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 It has a Jake on it and the push rods for the exhaust valves have springs on the top of them. I couldn't fin any info on how to set them so I set them with the spring pushed all the way down (compressed) with the feeler gauge under the rocker. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Assuming that everything was put back together correctly I would lean toward air trapped in the injector lines like fjh was getting at. They can be difficult to get the air purged from. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Would it hurt anything to crack it loose at the head and pull out on the tubes a little untill fuel was running out Edited February 17, 2011 by Waylon Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Would it hurt anything to crack it loose at the head and pull out on the tubes a little untill fuel was running outLines are supposed to be one time use due to the possibility of leaks, but I wouldn't worry too much about that until it was running. The way Mack says to bleed the lines is to snug them all up, pump the primer until pressure builds, loosen and unseat the lines from the pump end of the line, starting at #6 and working forward. So after primiing the system, #6 would be loosened at the pump and raised slightly until solid fuel comes out, then the line would be reseated, the primer pumped up again, and the procedure repeated on #5, and so on. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Lines are supposed to be one time use due to the possibility of leaks, but I wouldn't worry too much about that until it was running. The way Mack says to bleed the lines is to snug them all up, pump the primer until pressure builds, loosen and unseat the lines from the pump end of the line, starting at #6 and working forward. So after primiing the system, #6 would be loosened at the pump and raised slightly until solid fuel comes out, then the line would be reseated, the primer pumped up again, and the procedure repeated on #5, and so on. Bleed em at the head ! The (Mack way is for normal situations) you have an abnormal situation . Crack the fuel line at the head at least two if not all the cyls get solid fuel there as per rhaslers instruction ,then you know for sure where your at !Also I'm sceptical of the valve set ( IF YOU had the cam out) you said you could not find info on the set? The valve set marks are on the fly wheel, set the engine on one of the marks and check for valves rocking on one of the cyls and then check the set on the other.We Don't even know if the cam is in time at this point as you have been thrown into the middle of things here! Was the cam out ? Another WARNING For you If this engine has droped a valve, I Would be Taking a serious look at the Lifters on that cyl If it has Ceramic lifters You may be doing a cam sortly if you do get it running. Just my opinion! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 I set the engine using the marks on the flywheel. The only thing I wasn't sure about was the springs on the end of the push rods.I have bled the lines and now have fuel at the head on all cyl and it still won't start. The engine will run on ether but won't even try without it. All of the adjustment screws on the valves apear to be even. I don't have the proper dial indicator to check the timing so I'm now gonna pull the covers off another engine, put the fly wheel on 1/6 and check the push rod travel for comparison. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 They both apear to be the same. Is the procedure for checking valve timing on an E-Tech engine the same as a E7 mechanical(I have a 1989 E7 maual). I would think that it would at least try to start if the timing was off. It won't even try to start on its own but it will run good off ether(as much as I hate using ether). I thought that maybe the injectors were plugged but I wouldn't think that all 6 of them would be. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The book says they're the same procedure. You're looking for approx. 26 degrees. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Let me tell you what i saw a young man do one time. It was a E 7 mechanical engine and i think he only replaced head gaskets. He ask me to help him cause no start. He or we bleed it and it would run on start fluid and nothen wrong with start fluid if you will use good sense but it would not fire. We bleed lines when running so that was not a problem. I ask him about ever thing he did and he happen to tell me he did not pull injectors so i said did you use a brush on them. He say yes a brush in a drill motor. We pulled the injectors and he sure brushed them. I think it stopped them up cause i sent them over to fuel shop and they replace 6 nozzles. Then it starts.You cant use a brush like that on the tips. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 They both apear to be the same. Is the procedure for checking valve timing on an E-Tech engine the same as a E7 mechanical(I have a 1989 E7 maual). I would think that it would at least try to start if the timing was off. It won't even try to start on its own but it will run good off ether(as much as I hate using ether). I thought that maybe the injectors were plugged but I wouldn't think that all 6 of them would be.If It ran on ether The cam or valve set are likly out the window!Sothings going on here that the ecu dosent see as a problem! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Let me tell you what i saw a young man do one time. It was a E 7 mechanical engine and i think he only replaced head gaskets. He ask me to help him cause no start. He or we bleed it and it would run on start fluid and nothen wrong with start fluid if you will use good sense but it would not fire. We bleed lines when running so that was not a problem. I ask him about ever thing he did and he happen to tell me he did not pull injectors so i said did you use a brush on them. He say yes a brush in a drill motor. We pulled the injectors and he sure brushed them. I think it stopped them up cause i sent them over to fuel shop and they replace 6 nozzles. Then it starts.You cant use a brush like that on the tips.Hadn't really thought of that, but it's a definite possibility. That seems to happen more often than one one expect, especially with injectors (EUIS) costing over $1000. 1 Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If It ran on ether The cam or valve set are likly out the window!Somethings going on here that the ecu dosent see as a problem!OR the ecu is not functioning Period!When you get in the unit turn the key to on does the check engine light come on then go off? If not then maybe there is a relay issue! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 When you turn the key on, does the red X shutdown light and the yellow "lightening bolt" light come on for 2 seconds then go out? If not the engine ECM might not be powering up. If the J-1939 line and the other datalink (cant remember the #, J-1758 ?) wire are unplugged it wont start. Some where I have a "crank but no start" troubleshooting check list. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylon Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Both lights on the dash do come on then go off. I put the ECU and VCU on another truck and it started no problem. I just took 6 injectors out of another engine and put them in and it still won't fire. I have checked continuity in all the wires from ECU to VCU and voltage/grounds at the ECU. If I unplug any of the sensors and turn the key on the ECU picks it up and gives the fault code. Edited February 19, 2011 by Waylon Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I dont know about mack electronics but cat DD or cummins will show rpm when running on starting fluid. So if yours will not then it may not be picking up the engine cranksensor. I am guessing the tack here is ecm driven. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/18006-e-tech-e7-427-to-e7-460/#findComment-73134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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