Mackpro Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Thinking about the ideal of a fuel cooler. I noticed today that the fuel temp in the tanks were 100 degrees. Wonder if running through a cooler to get the fuel temps down would help preformance? I know the drag racers do it with gas engines. Any thoughts out there? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatcity Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I'm not a chemist or engineer or all that. The difference with the two products related to vapor temp. and density would prolly be the factor. Trying to get the air cooler would be a better benefit. My opinion only.............but I did stay at a Holiday inn express one time. Quote Success is only a stones throw away.................................................................for a Palestinian Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiant2 Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I'm not a chemist or engineer or all that. The difference with the two products related to vapor temp. and density would prolly be the factor. Trying to get the air cooler would be a better benefit. My opinion only.............but I did stay at a Holiday inn express one time. Quote We the unwilling, Lead by the unqualified, are doing the impossible, for the ungrateful. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyRebel Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I'm not a chemist or engineer or all that. The difference with the two products related to vapor temp. and density would prolly be the factor. Trying to get the air cooler would be a better benefit. My opinion only.............but I did stay at a Holiday inn express one time.It gets right down to the hot fuel issue...about expansion of liquid fuel (and therefore not as much energy in a given volume) as the fuel temperature increases. For example, if you buy 100 gallons of fuel that is 80 degrees from a non-compensating pump, you won't go as far on that fuel run as you could have if the 100 gallons of fuel was at 60 degrees when you pumped it.Another way to think about this is to fill a one gallon can to max capacity with fuel...this is one gallon of "cold fuel"...then set it out in the hot summer sun. As the sun heats the fuel, it expands and some of it will spill out of the can. You now have a gallon of "hot fuel"....which contains less energy (the spilled fuel) than the gallon of cold fuel.The theory is the same when discussing cooling the fuel prior to injecting it into the cylinder. Colder, denser fuel will have more energy available to be released during the combustion process than warmer fuel....which means the potential for more power if the air/fuel ratio is correct.I don't see why it WOULDN'T work to some effect...the question to be answered is just how much cooler can you get fuel in an economical way? Drag cars can pack ice around the air box & fuel lines to cool things down. That method probably would be more work keeping the ice boxes stocked than it would be worth in power gains in an OTR truck....but could there possibly be another way to chill the fuel without expending more energy than you'll gain?OK...too much thinking for one night... Quote When approaching a 4-way stop, the vehicle with the biggest tires has the right of way! Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatcity Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 It gets right down to the hot fuel issue...about expansion of liquid fuel (and therefore not as much energy in a given volume) as the fuel temperature increases. For example, if you buy 100 gallons of fuel that is 80 degrees from a non-compensating pump, you won't go as far on that fuel run as you could have if the 100 gallons of fuel was at 60 degrees when you pumped it.Another way to think about this is to fill a one gallon can to max capacity with fuel...this is one gallon of "cold fuel"...then set it out in the hot summer sun. As the sun heats the fuel, it expands and some of it will spill out of the can. You now have a gallon of "hot fuel"....which contains less energy (the spilled fuel) than the gallon of cold fuel.The theory is the same when discussing cooling the fuel prior to injecting it into the cylinder. Colder, denser fuel will have more energy available to be released during the combustion process than warmer fuel....which means the potential for more power if the air/fuel ratio is correct.I don't see why it WOULDN'T work to some effect...the question to be answered is just how much cooler can you get fuel in an economical way? Drag cars can pack ice around the air box & fuel lines to cool things down. That method probably would be more work keeping the ice boxes stocked than it would be worth in power gains in an OTR truck....but could there possibly be another way to chill the fuel without expending more energy than you'll gain?OK...too much thinking for one night... Damn. Your brain must be hurtin'. BUT, you did explain it in a way I can understand. Quote Success is only a stones throw away.................................................................for a Palestinian Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 The problem mainly is the return fuel coming out of the block/fuel galley back to the tanks, I think that is where most of the heat comes from. Thought I might put a left over trans oil cooler in the return fuel line and another one on the suction side. My buddies CV with a AI-427 will try anything cheap for more power. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyRebel Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 The problem mainly is the return fuel coming out of the block/fuel galley back to the tanks, I think that is where most of the heat comes from. Thought I might put a left over trans oil cooler in the return fuel line and another one on the suction side. My buddies CV with a AI-427 will try anything cheap for more power.Just make sure you have some sort of "winter bypass" as part of the system...that return fuel is what keeps the tank fuel warm enough to prevent gelling while the truck is on the road. Start cooling the return fuel too much, and it increases the need for anti-gel additives. Around here you might be able to get away with something like that...even without a winter bypass....but for an OTR truck that spends any time up north in the winter, it could potentially cause problems. Quote When approaching a 4-way stop, the vehicle with the biggest tires has the right of way! Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 Just make sure you have some sort of "winter bypass" as part of the system...that return fuel is what keeps the tank fuel warm enough to prevent gelling while the truck is on the road. Start cooling the return fuel too much, and it increases the need for anti-gel additives. Around here you might be able to get away with something like that...even without a winter bypass....but for an OTR truck that spends any time up north in the winter, it could potentially cause problems.His truck sets all winter but I can always unscrew the hoses and put a union in and bypass the coolers if he needs it. Just wondering if it would even worth it to install it. Already got a 460 turbo, high flow muffler and a "Hot" enine ECM file installed , hits 35 psi boost but just need a little but more. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 His truck sets all winter but I can always unscrew the hoses and put a union in and bypass the coolers if he needs it. Just wondering if it would even worth it to install it. Already got a 460 turbo, high flow muffler and a "Hot" enine ECM file installed , hits 35 psi boost but just need a little but more.I dont know bout the mack but cat cummins and DD have a temp sendor and it will compensate for the hotter fuel. In other words hotter the fuel the more the ecm allows to be injected making up for the hot fuel.Up to about 145 degrees.On the Vmac i am sure the fuel dont get near as hot as the fuel does like a cat or DD or cummins.The fuel return on them has a great return to the tank return a lot of heat with it. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-78971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackcl96 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Thinking about the ideal of a fuel cooler. I noticed today that the fuel temp in the tanks were 100 degrees. Wonder if running through a cooler to get the fuel temps down would help preformance? I know the drag racers do it with gas engines. Any thoughts out there?Cant hurt (fuel cooler),,,,,You remember the fuel tank heaters we use to use years ago,,,and if you didn't bypass them in the summer the truck ran like crap and MPG went down.Help a buddy with a 05 AI (inj,turbo and Hagerstown exempt the the emissions) and yes the fuel tank is very hot,,the owner cant polish his tanks when he waits for the paver.My thoughts is this new fuel burns to hot and fast......and needs more cold dense air,,,I been seeing this with the myE7 and E9 when its hot and humid it cant get enough air to get proper burn.I have been using the Donaldson air filter,,,,,,seems to be less paper density then the Mack element,,,unless they are nowthe same don't know. Quote Thanks for hearing me out.You can have the soap box now---------JIM Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79117 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawel Posted June 6, 2011 Share Posted June 6, 2011 I wouldn't recommend cooling the fuel - while true, that it's more dense, when cold, when it is warm, it flows better, the injectors vaporize it better and so it mixes better with air and gets burned more effectively. So you actually get what you want - you inject less fuel while getting more power out of every drop of it. Hope it helps, have a nice dayPaweł Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearbox Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 The series 1 Jaguars had a fuel cooler on the suction side of the air conditioning system which is cool and we run A/C alot here Australia so if the truck is air conditioned with some fabrication you could make a fuel cooler that works when the weather is hot and when cold you wouldn't run A/C so the fuel cooler wouldn't work. the cost to run would be minor as you are using waste heat from A/C Just a Thought if are keen Cheers Gearbox Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawel Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 The idea is fine, but that was a sports car, where you want maximum power no matter the cost. In case where you want maximum efficiency - most bang for the buck - I say let's drop it and save the extra weight. Have a nice dayPaweł Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 my look at of hot fuel is there is more BTUs in a gallon of cold fuel than there is in a gallon of hot fuel. Other wise the temp of the fuel would not hurt any thing. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackpro Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 my look at of hot fuel is there is more BTUs in a gallon of cold fuel than there is in a gallon of hot fuel. Other wise the temp of the fuel would not hurt any thing. My thought is that the trucks around here run better in the 50-75 degree Spring and Fall. I dont expect a big drop in fuel temp but if I could knock 15-20 degrees off of a 100+ degree fuel temp it shouldn't hurt. I have already seen what leaving the coolant turned on to the fuel heater will do to MPG in the summer time and it is not good. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatcity Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 How much can you really drop the fuel temp. if ambient is 90-100?The theory sounds right Quote Success is only a stones throw away.................................................................for a Palestinian Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 How much can you really drop the fuel temp. if ambient is 90-100?The theory sounds rightIt could be done quite easily. Think of how a pressure washer works; a coil of liquid flowing around and past a flame. Each pass absorbs heat from the flame. The process in reverse with a refrigeration coil extracting the heat from the fuel is easy citing the fuel flow is not fast at all. Additional cooling, or the amount of cooling, would be controlled the the number or turns to the coil. A small external mounted condening unit is the only extra that is needed if the fuel cooler system is not added onto the existing air conditioner and sharing the system. The same compressor is large enough to supply both systems.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryMac Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Most unit injector engines burn about 25% of the fuel circulating with the remaining fuel cooling the injectors and returning to the fuel tank. I have seen some engines, (8V92s etc) seizing injectors due to high fuel temperature especially when the tanks were low. Some engine manufactures would rate their engines performance @ 29degC fuel temperature with some losses due to temperature above, with a maximum alowable inlet fuel temperature of about 50degC. Therefore fuel cooler can be beneficial to the engines performance and component life. Best regards Gary Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19297-fuel-cooler-any-thoughts/#findComment-79831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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