What's The Difference?

[Rob]

How much of a difference is there in an RTO-14609, and a RTO-14610? Given my limited apptitude in such things I do know one has another gear.........

Really thinking about doing away with the RTO-12513 and the noise. I've looked for a decent priced RTO-14613, but I'm looking for cheap and haven't had much success.

Thanks,

Rob

[Bollweevil]

The 9 over's are a .73 the 10 overs are a .74 overdrive respectfully. The 10 spreads the ratios a little differently. On flat ground, you wont see much difference. On a long grade, when you have to drop one gear, the difference begins to show. as rpm max's out the 10 will be pulling and the 9 will be against the gov as road speed drops off. Go to Road Ranger.com. Close to the bottom of the page, click on specifications, then choose transmissions. You can find more information than you can use.

[Rob]

The 9 over's are a .73 the 10 overs are a .74 overdrive respectfully. The 10 spreads the ratios a little differently. On flat ground, you wont see much difference. On a long grade, when you have to drop one gear, the difference begins to show. as rpm max's out the 10 will be pulling and the 9 will be against the gov as road speed drops off. Go to Road Ranger.com. Close to the bottom of the page, click on specifications, then choose transmissions. You can find more information than you can use.

Hi James, I can find nothing pertaining to the older transmissions on the "Roadranger.com" site. Other than oil capacity, everything seems to relate to their newer stuff.

Rob

[other dog]

How much of a difference is there in an RTO-14609, and a RTO-14610? Given my limited apptitude in such things I do know one has another gear.........

Really thinking about doing away with the RTO-12513 and the noise. I've looked for a decent priced RTO-14613, but I'm looking for cheap and haven't had much success.

Thanks,

Rob

I drove a T800 with a RTO-14613 and it was the worst trans. in any truck I ever drove. Might have just been a bad unit, but it had way too much slack in the counter gears even when the truck was brand new.

The 18 speeds are far and away the best I ever drove, but I would imagine they're pretty expensive too.

[bullhusk]

Hi James, I can find nothing pertaining to the older transmissions on the "Roadranger.com" site. Other than oil capacity, everything seems to relate to their newer stuff.

Rob

Rob,

I might have some older fuller stuff filed in my office i'll check on Monday. I personally like the RTO 15's, They have the best of both worlds a nice O/D ratio an of course the deep-reduction side, which can be progressively up shifted! an also with the older engines, the shifts are close so your rpm's stay up there. We had them behind our 318's an they were a lot nicer then the 13's we had! I think they were RTO9515's

BULLHUSK

[theakerstwo]

Depends on which 10 speed. One will have a hi low gear and the other will have a low low gear. Most 9 speed is lower first gear than the 10.

[Bollweevil]

I suppose I have led a sheltered life, as I was not aware of an overdrive 10 speed prior to the FRO series. The 12513 with it's 1st generation spur cut gears has earned a well deserved rep for being noisy. All the racket is in the back box though. If you wanted to you can replace the rear box with a 12509 rear, and at the same time over drive the front box. That way you can use the transmission you already already have.

[Rob]

This afternoon I went to the shop and drained the trans again. I also pulled the plugs in both differentials to look at the magnetic plug in the peanut case, the reduction case, and the bowl. If I remember correctly you don't need to check the fluid level in the upper area(s), just the lower bowl(s). The innards were coated with freshly splashed oil. There was very little grit/shavings on either of the magnetic plugs of the rears, and the bowls were full of relatively clean and green gear oil. The trans oil was a light bronze color with no indication of water or contamination. I then took a clean cloth and clipped a section into a conformable wand and wiped the bottom of the gear case internally with the cloth. There really was nothing picked up that could be considered abnormal.

I'm wondering if it is time to pull the rear box from the trans and ensure something has not gone south in there. I drove the truck this morning and although the trans is noisy, it was not a screamer like it was when good and warm. It also never attempts to jump out of gear and shifts very well through all ranges. I'd like to have an illustated parts breakdown to see how this animal works. The lack of metal or garbage in the drain oil or on the drain plug is strange.

Rob

[other dog]

I suppose I have led a sheltered life, as I was not aware of an overdrive 10 speed prior to the FRO series. The 12513 with it's 1st generation spur cut gears has earned a well deserved rep for being noisy. All the racket is in the back box though. If you wanted to you can replace the rear box with a 12509 rear, and at the same time over drive the front box. That way you can use the transmission you already already have.

Actually, the '79 F-model I drove had a 10 speed overdrive- rto910 I believe. 4th. and 5th. gears were backwards from the norm, 4th. was towards the rear, 5th. was towards the dash.

[rhasler]

This afternoon I went to the shop and drained the trans again. I also pulled the plugs in both differentials to look at the magnetic plug in the peanut case, the reduction case, and the bowl. If I remember correctly you don't need to check the fluid level in the upper area(s), just the lower bowl(s). The innards were coated with freshly splashed oil. There was very little grit/shavings on either of the magnetic plugs of the rears, and the bowls were full of relatively clean and green gear oil. The trans oil was a light bronze color with no indication of water or contamination. I then took a clean cloth and clipped a section into a conformable wand and wiped the bottom of the gear case internally with the cloth. There really was nothing picked up that could be considered abnormal.

I'm wondering if it is time to pull the rear box from the trans and ensure something has not gone south in there. I drove the truck this morning and although the trans is noisy, it was not a screamer like it was when good and warm. It also never attempts to jump out of gear and shifts very well through all ranges. I'd like to have an illustated parts breakdown to see how this animal works. The lack of metal or garbage in the drain oil or on the drain plug is strange.

Rob

Here are a couple of links to the parts and service manuals

Parts catalog: http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=270949

Service manual: http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=288002

[Rob]

Here are a couple of links to the parts and service manuals

Parts catalog: http://www.roadrange...FILE&dID=270949

Service manual: http://www.roadrange...FILE&dID=288002

Man I couldn't get to that section for nothin. I tried over a 1/2 hour before giving up. I've never been into a 13 speed before but it doesn't appear to be all that difficult. Think I'll go ahead and pull it out and get the rear section removed to evaluate the bearings at a minimum. Something has got to be indicative of wear to make this amount of noise.

I already have two complete gasket and seal sets for this series.

Thanks,

Rob

[Rob]

Actually, the '79 F-model I drove had a 10 speed overdrive- rto910 I believe. 4th. and 5th. gears were backwards from the norm, 4th. was towards the rear, 5th. was towards the dash.

I drove one of those once. Didn't like the backing speed at all; much too fast.

Rob

[rhasler]

Man I couldn't get to that section for nothin. I tried over a 1/2 hour before giving up. I've never been into a 13 speed before but it doesn't appear to be all that difficult. Think I'll go ahead and pull it out and get the rear section removed to evaluate the bearings at a minimum. Something has got to be indicative of wear to make this amount of noise.

I already have two complete gasket and seal sets for this series.

Thanks,

Rob

I have trouble finding stuff there too sometimes, Meritor's site is even harder to navigate through.

[theakerstwo]

I suppose I have led a sheltered life, as I was not aware of an overdrive 10 speed prior to the FRO series. The 12513 with it's 1st generation spur cut gears has earned a well deserved rep for being noisy. All the racket is in the back box though. If you wanted to you can replace the rear box with a 12509 rear, and at the same time over drive the front box. That way you can use the transmission you already already have.

But it will be a larger o/d than .73 or .74 I am thinking it is like .61 The real factory rto 12510 is a smaller o/d because it has all differnt gears up front or least the front 4 sets are different than a home made o/d 10 speed.I have made many but guys end up not liking them cause they had a big split from 9 to 10.He can also buy a back box kit that will go on the RTO12513 that will be quite. It is same as a RTO 14613.The kit will be a rear box complete with a new aux drive gear.

[Rob]

But it will be a larger o/d than .73 or .74 I am thinking it is like .61 The real factory rto 12510 is a smaller o/d because it has all differnt gears up front or least the front 4 sets are different than a home made o/d 10 speed.I have made many but guys end up not liking them cause they had a big split from 9 to 10.He can also buy a back box kit that will go on the RTO12513 that will be quite. It is same as a RTO 14613.The kit will be a rear box complete with a new aux drive gear.

Hi Glenn, I asked about that conversion kit about a year and a half ago. I had seen it on the roadranger site then listed. It is not offered any longer direct from Eaton.

Rob

[theakerstwo]

This afternoon I went to the shop and drained the trans again. I also pulled the plugs in both differentials to look at the magnetic plug in the peanut case, the reduction case, and the bowl. If I remember correctly you don't need to check the fluid level in the upper area(s), just the lower bowl(s). The innards were coated with freshly splashed oil. There was very little grit/shavings on either of the magnetic plugs of the rears, and the bowls were full of relatively clean and green gear oil. The trans oil was a light bronze color with no indication of water or contamination. I then took a clean cloth and clipped a section into a conformable wand and wiped the bottom of the gear case internally with the cloth. There really was nothing picked up that could be considered abnormal.

I'm wondering if it is time to pull the rear box from the trans and ensure something has not gone south in there. I drove the truck this morning and although the trans is noisy, it was not a screamer like it was when good and warm. It also never attempts to jump out of gear and shifts very well through all ranges. I'd like to have an illustated parts breakdown to see how this animal works. The lack of metal or garbage in the drain oil or on the drain plug is strange.

Rob

Rob the lack of cutting in the oil is because there is three magnets in the bottom of the trans.If it got a noise in o/d only that is normal to some degree.I mean when new. I grew up with them and back then trucks were noisey and it was not to bad but as trucks get quiter the trans sound is more pronounts now.I have replaced the o/d drive and driven gears in them and found it does not help.The isolator installed on the shifter stick did some help.

[Rob]

Rob the lack of cutting in the oil is because there is three magnets in the bottom of the trans.If it got a noise in o/d only that is normal to some degree.I mean when new. I grew up with them and back then trucks were noisey and it was not to bad but as trucks get quiter the trans sound is more pronounts now.I have replaced the o/d drive and driven gears in them and found it does not help.The isolator installed on the shifter stick did some help.

Glenn, when starting from standing still in 1st gear, (to the left and up) I accelerate to about 1800 rpm and grab the next gear. There is a noticeable "howl" in the gearset at this point. Once again up to about 1800 and the next upshift is very quiet into third. Into fourth is also very quiet. Pulling the range selector up just prior to moving to 5th is a bit louder but not objectionable. When the splitter is moved to o/d, the whine is pronounced. The upshift and split back to direct is about as loud as the prior shift. From this point the whine and growl increases with road speed. I can feel the noise through the floor and steering column. I don't have any floor covering, or headliner in the truck and it is very loud to operate but the transmission is louder than the engine at speed.

I do have a couple of isolator kits to be incorporated into the shifters but haven't done those yet. Can I get to the magnets through the PTO openings? I need to reseal the PTO on the rt. side so it needs to come off.

Rob

[theakerstwo]

By it being quiter in the higher gears sounds as if the front counter shaft rear brgs could be lose.But these gears like ist and secnod are small straight cut on the counter shaft and they were some more noise than the 4 and 5 gears.You can pull the bottom pto cover and see almost all of the gears and feel the rear lower counter shaft gears for sharp edges.Us and good light and if the gears are still good they will have traces of mill cuts on the contact side of the teeth. A mirrow finish is signs of many miles and also can be noise.

[theakerstwo]

two magnets can be felt thru the bottom pto mount and the rear magnet is in the rear box.It is normal to find a hi mileage trans with a lot of metal filings but not cuttings.Wear frome teeth but is like a unshaved old man.

[Rob]

By it being quiter in the higher gears sounds as if the front counter shaft rear brgs could be lose.But these gears like ist and secnod are small straight cut on the counter shaft and they were some more noise than the 4 and 5 gears.You can pull the bottom pto cover and see almost all of the gears and feel the rear lower counter shaft gears for sharp edges.Us and good light and if the gears are still good they will have traces of mill cuts on the contact side of the teeth. A mirrow finish is signs of many miles and also can be noise.

I'll get a good look at it tomorrow. The truck was a low boy tractor so I'm sure it's had some strong usage. I have a good led light, (very bright) that snakes up into cavities easily. I may stand the other "ready spare" up on it's nose tomorrow and get a look at it also to use the best one.

Thanks for the insight!

Rob

[bullhusk]

I suppose I have led a sheltered life, as I was not aware of an overdrive 10 speed prior to the FRO series. The 12513 with it's 1st generation spur cut gears has earned a well deserved rep for being noisy. All the racket is in the back box though. If you wanted to you can replace the rear box with a 12509 rear, and at the same time over drive the front box. That way you can use the transmission you already already have.

Back in the 50's an 60's Fuller made the R96 series 10 speeds with direct an overdrive, the O/D trans. had fifth an rev. to your left side, fifth an 10th to the dash, 1 thru 4 with the H-pattern. I remenber helping my dad with those when I was a kid helpin him in his garage. All they were was a fuller 5 speed single counter shaft trans. with a box bolted to the back end with a big gear an a small gear, operated with a cable an a chrome T- handle that said ROADRANGER across it

BULLHUSK

[Rob]

Back in the 50's an 60's Fuller made the R96 series 10 speeds with direct an overdrive, the O/D trans. had fifth an rev. to your left side, fifth an 10th to the dash, 1 thru 4 with the H-pattern. I remenber helping my dad with those when I was a kid helpin him in his garage. All they were was a fuller 5 speed single counter shaft trans. with a box bolted to the back end with a big gear an a small gear, operated with a cable an a chrome T- handle that said ROADRANGER across it

BULLHUSK

I have seen two of those but never driven one. One was in an IH "Donald Duck", and the other in a White 4000 series. I never knew what the handle was for because I thought all "Roadrangers" were air shifted at the time.

Rob

[Rob]

Well Glenn; Following your advice I pulled the bottom PTO cover from the trans. What I saw immediately told me this suckers a coming out. The sliding clutches that can be seen only contain about 25% of their original wear faces. Some of the other gears are actually worn concave on the faces. None of the observed gears still contain their "hobb" marks except on the non load beariing surfaces at the edges, and I about cut my finger when I dragged it across the most forward magnet in the bottom of the case. Here are a couple of photos of some small pieces I dragged out:

The entire bottom of the case is a light gray metallic color that could not be swiped with my method prior. The layer is about 1/16" thick it feels like.

I rounded up my box of transmission parts and new biscuit kit and will get this one pulled either later today or tomorrow.

Glad I didn't attempt to make the South Bend trip after seeing this mess!!

Thanks again for the help and guidance.

Rob

[Rob]

Dragged my spare RTO-12513 out of the garage and moved trucks around so this one will have a stall. Got a nice oil slick starting just from moving the truck 10 feet....... Looks like I'll get to use my tranny jack tonight. Hope I don't need to remove a fuel tank that is about 3/4 full in the anticipation of the trip to South Bend that was canx'd. I had the top cover off this transmission and it looks nice inside. Came from a 1982 "Cruiseliner" and was behind a E6-350 which I have also. I never drove the truck but rather purchased the engine and the gent gave me the trans. It has a rebuilder's tag on the side and I have a complete top cover rebuild set including poppet balls, springs, forks etc. I will switch over the mounts, speedo drive gear, slave cylinder, and a couple of other things I know are good on the old trans. Will also replace the air line set upon the swap and need to pick up a throwout fork kit as this one is no good at all. The bushings are all but gone, but the housing seems alright.

And just cause Other Dog likes to look at pictures of things, a couple of my RL797LST in the shop.

Got to mow grass, then get back in the shop.

Rob

[theakerstwo]

Back in the 50's an 60's Fuller made the R96 series 10 speeds with direct an overdrive, the O/D trans. had fifth an rev. to your left side, fifth an 10th to the dash, 1 thru 4 with the H-pattern. I remenber helping my dad with those when I was a kid helpin him in his garage. All they were was a fuller 5 speed single counter shaft trans. with a box bolted to the back end with a big gear an a small gear, operated with a cable an a chrome T- handle that said ROADRANGER across it

BULLHUSK

The 10 speed was a R96 if direct and a R960 if o/d. The o/d was same as direct al but the 1st gear had been taken out and a o/d gear put in its place.!st position was 5 gear. I say same but the other gears may have been a different ratio than the direct gears.The R46 was the small gas burn trans and was a 8 speed.But had the hi/low shifter cylinder hanging on the out side pushing a lever.