What's The Difference?

[theakerstwo]

I wish i had a good jack like yours. mine is a 1973 year and worn out. I did buy me some of those brakets like you have on the top of your jack.I have a mack trans that will have to come out with in the year.

[rhasler]

The OTC transmission jack works well but I have never used the white plate that you have there when pulling a Fuller transmission. I always use the adapter for pulling the auxiliary section so that I can physically bolt the transmission to the jack and then I stick a block of wood under the front of the transmission to add extra support. I was never fond of strapping something as large as a transmission down and trying to remove/install it.

[Rob]

The OTC transmission jack works well but I have never used the white plate that you have there when pulling a Fuller transmission. I always use the adapter for pulling the auxiliary section so that I can physically bolt the transmission to the jack and then I stick a block of wood under the front of the transmission to add extra support. I was never fond of strapping something as large as a transmission down and trying to remove/install it.

I bought that jack new in 2000 and have used it a lot with Mack transmissions. Never have used the white plate but I cannot locate my shop made adapter that does as you say bolt the trans to the jack. I have a very smooth shop floor so if there is no gravel or oil dry, the jack rolls easily. The black adapters are not OTC but rather shop made also. I purchased those brackets but they were so simple I copied them and took the originals back. I think it cost me $20.00 to UPS them to Chicago but they were almost $250.00, (rediculous) to purchase. I have another shop made set that fit a single countershaft Mack trans much better than a "Maxitorque" of which those are for.

If you could send me some detailed photos of the adapter you use. I'd like to have one as that would be very easy to attach. Mine is made to pull the complete trans as I've never had the auxilary section off while in the truck.

Rob

[vision386]

Dragged my spare RTO-12513 out of the garage and moved trucks around so this one will have a stall. Got a nice oil slick starting just from moving the truck 10 feet....... Looks like I'll get to use my tranny jack tonight. Hope I don't need to remove a fuel tank that is about 3/4 full in the anticipation of the trip to South Bend that was canx'd. I had the top cover off this transmission and it looks nice inside. Came from a 1982 "Cruiseliner" and was behind a E6-350 which I have also. I never drove the truck but rather purchased the engine and the gent gave me the trans. It has a rebuilder's tag on the side and I have a complete top cover rebuild set including poppet balls, springs, forks etc. I will switch over the mounts, speedo drive gear, slave cylinder, and a couple of other things I know are good on the old trans. Will also replace the air line set upon the swap and need to pick up a throwout fork kit as this one is no good at all. The bushings are all but gone, but the housing seems alright.

And just cause Other Dog likes to look at pictures of things, a couple of my RL797LST in the shop.

Got to mow grass, then get back in the shop.

Rob

This would look just as good in MY garage!..................Mark

[rhasler]

Rob, here's a picture of the adapter from OTC's website. The part number for it is 49611. I'll see if I can get some pictures and dimensions of the one at work.

[bullhusk]

The 10 speed was a R96 if direct and a R960 if o/d. The o/d was same as direct al but the 1st gear had been taken out and a o/d gear put in its place.!st position was 5 gear. I say same but the other gears may have been a different ratio than the direct gears.The R46 was the small gas burn trans and was a 8 speed.But had the hi/low shifter cylinder hanging on the out side pushing a lever.

I was, I guess about 16 at the time? so it was well over 41 years ago, but I do remember that the shift pattern was not your usual R96 10 speed direct! Also back then on most of your O/D trans (if not all) O/D was always to the dash board even on your aux. trans. an on double O/D , both sticks went foward.

BULLHUSK

[Rob]

Rob, here's a picture of the adapter from OTC's website. The part number for it is 49611. I'll see if I can get some pictures and dimensions of the one at work.

I remember seeing that part in the book that came with the jack. Thought about it really but didn't ever see myself trying to repair one of these things so went no further that the needed adapters for the Mack transmission. The white plate came with the jack and has never been used. I just grabbed it and threw it on the floor next to the jack. My shop built one is here someplace.

Funny thing about this jack and why I purchased this particular one. The truck parts vendor I use sold this one, a Norco, Omega, and AFF, (American Forge and Foundry). All but the OTC were either Taiwan, or China produced. I told the manager I'd give $1750.00, (the cost of the Taiwan Omega brand) for the OTC out the door or buy none of them and order from Northern Hydraulics. He thought for a minute and let me have it for my price. I spend a few thousand dollars a year in there so he made the right choice. Been a really good jack with a stable platform that does not leak down. He wouldn't budge on the 10 ton air powered floor jack I wanted however. I make due with my 10 ton $100.00 ebay Lincoln special with thanks to Freightrain for picking it up and storing till I could get it picked up.

Rob

[rhasler]

The only issue I've had with the OTC was that the threaded rod that tilts the platform fore and aft is (or was) retained at the platform end with a rinky-dink snap ring. One day installing a T2018 transmission in an RD chassis the snap ring gave out and the transmission ended up halfway in the cab. After that I drilled and tapped the rod on the platform end to accept a bolt and installed some oversize OD washers to prevent the same thing from happening again.

[Rob]

The only issue I've had with the OTC was that the threaded rod that tilts the platform fore and aft is (or was) retained at the platform end with a rinky-dink snap ring. One day installing a T2018 transmission in an RD chassis the snap ring gave out and the transmission ended up halfway in the cab. After that I drilled and tapped the rod on the platform end to accept a bolt and installed some oversize OD washers to prevent the same thing from happening again.

This one is the same way with the snap ring. I have thought the same thing as you with drilling and tapping but I've not done it. That really is a cheesy setup. The only real part I've not liked about the jack is the for and aft tilt not being a ratchet type affair. You have to to use an open end wrench that is kinda cumbersome as there is not much throw before you get into the frame of the jack.

Rob

[rhasler]

Here are some pictures of the adapter

These are all fairly rough measurements. The adapter attaches to the case at one of the upper holes for the countershaft cover and two holes on the lower countershaft cover. In order to keep from bending over the ear on the adapter you need to use spacers approx. 1/2" thick between it and the transmission case along with bolts that are 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the bolts for the countershaft cover.

The adapter measures 19" overall width. The piece of channel that attaches to the jack is 16 13/16" in width.

The longer side of the adapter at the mounting ear is 9 3/8", the channel on this side is 7". The shorter side of the adapter at the upper mounting ear is 7", the channel on this side is 4 1/4".

The slotted holes are 1 1/2" wide and approx. 7/16" diameter.

The hole on the longer side is centered at 3/4" from the top of the adapter and 2 1/4" from the edge. The upper hole on the short side is centered at 1 1/8" from the edge and 1" from the top. The clover leaf hole is centered in the horizontal at 2 3/4" from the bottom and 2 5/8 from the edge.

The mounting provision for attaching to the jack is the same as the adapter for the Mack transmission

[Rob]

Here are some pictures of the adapter

These are all fairly rough measurements. The adapter attaches to the case at one of the upper holes for the countershaft cover and two holes on the lower countershaft cover. In order to keep from bending over the ear on the adapter you need to use spacers approx. 1/2" thick between it and the transmission case along with bolts that are 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the bolts for the countershaft cover.

The adapter measures 19" overall width. The piece of channel that attaches to the jack is 16 13/16" in width.

The longer side of the adapter at the mounting ear is 9 3/8", the channel on this side is 7". The shorter side of the adapter at the upper mounting ear is 7", the channel on this side is 4 1/4".

The slotted holes are 1 1/2" wide and approx. 7/16" diameter.

The hole on the longer side is centered at 3/4" from the top of the adapter and 2 1/4" from the edge. The upper hole on the short side is centered at 1 1/8" from the edge and 1" from the top. The clover leaf hole is centered in the horizontal at 2 3/4" from the bottom and 2 5/8 from the edge.

The mounting provision for attaching to the jack is the same as the adapter for the Mack transmission

Thanks a lot for the photos. When I get this trans out I'll stand it up on the nose and make a template and go from there. Thinking this adapter will only be used for a single purpose, I'll probably weld the needed spacers to the vertical arms as to lessen loose parts to round up for use. I'm assuming the covers for the countershafts are removed to bolt this adapter to?

Rob

[rhasler]

Thanks a lot for the photos. When I get this trans out I'll stand it up on the nose and make a template and go from there. Thinking this adapter will only be used for a single purpose, I'll probably weld the needed spacers to the vertical arms as to lessen loose parts to round up for use. I'm assuming the covers for the countershafts are removed to bolt this adapter to?

Rob

Pulling the transmission with the plate doesn't require removal of the countershaft covers, the spacers provide enough gap to prevent damage to the stamped type covers. I'm not sure if all the Roadranger cases have the bearing covers in exactly the same place. I imagine that is why the plate is slotted. The adapter from OTC comes with a set of counter-bored spacers that accept a sprauge washer that keeps the bolt from coming out unintentionally.

[Rob]

Dropped the driveline for both the truck and winch today. Removed the floorpan, shifter tower after vacuming the top of the trans, and all bolts except one in the top center of the flywheel housing. I've started on the jack adapter using the supplied dimensions along with an illustration for a guide; also using the transmission to be installed for a template. Damned 1800 series driveline is heavy I'll tell you that much! So far not even a scratch or donation of blood to the cause but it's not over yet. I ordered a throwout fork and bushing set that should arrive tomorrow. I'm also going to install a two piece clutch brake as the one that is installed currently does not work at all. I know I should install a new clutch but this one doesn't slip, or chatter when empty. I hate doing something twice but really dislike throwing "Franklins" away if unneeded. Planning to rebuild the top cover this evening with new slider blocks and shifting forks. Probably not going to dump 28 pints of synthetic transmission lube into it right off. I have some SAE50W motor oil I'll start with. I know nothing about the trans other than it is said to be good.

Rob

[Bollweevil]

Dropped the driveline for both the truck and winch today. Removed the floorpan, shifter tower after vacuming the top of the trans, and all bolts except one in the top center of the flywheel housing. I've started on the jack adapter using the supplied dimensions along with an illustration for a guide; also using the transmission to be installed for a template. Damned 1800 series driveline is heavy I'll tell you that much! So far not even a scratch or donation of blood to the cause but it's not over yet. I ordered a throwout fork and bushing set that should arrive tomorrow. I'm also going to install a two piece clutch brake as the one that is installed currently does not work at all. I know I should install a new clutch but this one doesn't slip, or chatter when empty. I hate doing something twice but really dislike throwing "Franklins" away if unneeded. Planning to rebuild the top cover this evening with new slider blocks and shifting forks. Probably not going to dump 28 pints of synthetic transmission lube into it right off. I have some SAE50W motor oil I'll start with. I know nothing about the trans other than it is said to be good.

Rob

[/quote

I would like to know why you prefer a two piece clutch brake over a one piece with the belleville washer, which is a lot more forgiving. I have replaced clutch brakes for other people before, but can't recall ever failing one myself.

[Rob]

Dropped the driveline for both the truck and winch today. Removed the floorpan, shifter tower after vacuming the top of the trans, and all bolts except one in the top center of the flywheel housing. I've started on the jack adapter using the supplied dimensions along with an illustration for a guide; also using the transmission to be installed for a template. Damned 1800 series driveline is heavy I'll tell you that much! So far not even a scratch or donation of blood to the cause but it's not over yet. I ordered a throwout fork and bushing set that should arrive tomorrow. I'm also going to install a two piece clutch brake as the one that is installed currently does not work at all. I know I should install a new clutch but this one doesn't slip, or chatter when empty. I hate doing something twice but really dislike throwing "Franklins" away if unneeded. Planning to rebuild the top cover this evening with new slider blocks and shifting forks. Probably not going to dump 28 pints of synthetic transmission lube into it right off. I have some SAE50W motor oil I'll start with. I know nothing about the trans other than it is said to be good.

Rob

[/quote

I would like to know why you prefer a two piece clutch brake over a one piece with the belleville washer, which is a lot more forgiving. I have replaced clutch brakes for other people before, but can't recall ever failing one myself.

Hi James, I've never had a working clutch brake in anything. I've replaced several for others and really don't like to bust the single piece up with an air hammer but that's the only way I know of to not pull the trans. I was just thinking that if it wears out, the two piece is easier to change? I can't remember if I've ever changed one that was two piece in the truck or not.

Rob

[theakerstwo]

Rob if the clutch is adjusted right the brake will last as long as the clutch and longer than the two peice that dont have a slip spring in it.The reason the brake disc fails is the pressure plate is not adjust right. The throw out brg collar is hitting the clutch brake before the pressure plat is releasing the clutch disc.Adjust the pressure plat right and then adjust the linbkage last. Then for the rest of the life of the cltch leave the linkage adjuster along and adjust only the pressure plate.

[Rob]

Rob if the clutch is adjusted right the brake will last as long as the clutch and longer than the two peice that dont have a slip spring in it.The reason the brake disc fails is the pressure plate is not adjust right. The throw out brg collar is hitting the clutch brake before the pressure plat is releasing the clutch disc.Adjust the pressure plat right and then adjust the linbkage last. Then for the rest of the life of the cltch leave the linkage adjuster along and adjust only the pressure plate.

I have the adjustment tools for the clutch and need to read up on the procedure to do it right. Sounds like the one piece clutch brake is favored so I think I'll go that way. Are there any ways experience has taught rather than a book procedure to adjust one of these things?

Rob

[Bollweevil]

I have the adjustment tools for the clutch and need to read up on the procedure to do it right. Sounds like the one piece clutch brake is favored so I think I'll go that way. Are there any ways experience has taught rather than a book procedure to adjust one of these things?

Rob

There are times that are especially annoying when trying to adjust a Mack cable operated clutch. Replacing the worn fork and shaft bushings is a good start. Worn clevis's and pins can be compensated for if not too badly worn. Since you are not replacing the clutch, it should be close. The actual clutch adjustment is the same on any Spicer clutch. the linkage, and cable mounting points are problems at times. Setting up the clutch brake is the first order of business. The clutch brake itself SHOULD NOT be the limit of the clutch pedal travel. With the pedal at the absolute end of it's travel, adjust the linkage so the clutch brake is just snug. Then go back to the clutch. with just enough pressure on the fork to pull the clearance out of the bearing you should have 1/2 in between the bearing and brake. A 1/2 in drill bit is a good guage. At rest you should have 1/8 in clearance between the fork and the bearing. This should translate to 1 1/2 to a little more pedal travel at the top. As the clutch wears, free travel at the top goes away, As Glenn said go back to the clutch, when adjusted back to 1/2 in, you get the free travel back without messing up the clutch brake

[Rob]

Got the tranny out and on the floor. It took me longer to get the bolt out of the floor pan behind the accelerator pedal that snapped the captive nut loose than the big parts of the job. I didn't want to hurt anything; (these bolts recess in the floor panel). The nut is hidded behind a welded brace that I didn't want to cut loose so couldn't get to it. Didn't even have to remove any fuel tanks which are over 1/2 full each.

After getting the trans out from under the truck I noticed the input shaft looks good but is questionable. It has about 3/8th inch of up and down movement where the replacement is much tighter. The wear surface for the clutch brake is worn where the friction material has worn a recess into the face. The bronze bushing in the end of the throwout bearing has a groove or depression worn into it about 7/16ths wide, (rear to front) from what I think is the input shaft walking. I've not pulled the clutch out yet but will most likely replace it after seeing this. The splines areal look very good with little wear but the donor trans has a new one awaiting installation. I assume there is an oil seal in the front of the trans cause the inside of the clutch housing, (transmission 1/2) is loaded with oil. The clutch and pressure plate area(s) are dry. I'm assuming this has a 14.5" clutch setup as the flywheel is the "bowl" style. I also figger the pilot bearing must but junk to allow the input shaft to move/deflect at all.

I had to steal the "gorilla tape" from Other Dog's blow up doll he left here for repairs, but I'll put it back, "I promise". Didn't want to leave the openings uncovered. I couldn't find any other in the shop, (Sorry Tom) to use.

Gonna get the steam cleaner after both transmissions later tonight. Out of all the conversation about this job not one of you "professional" mechanics mentioned anything about possibly getting dirty. Let me tell you this is not an easy job for a guy to do and keep a white tee shift clean. Soon as "Momma" seen me, I was given a bar of lye soap and ordered to the wash tub in the back yard. She said something about "smellun funny". Might have been that green synthetic lube from the trans dripping on my skull when I was removing bolts underneath. It was running out of my right ear. She got that taken care of with a toothpick. The grease was attracted to a giant "dust ball" that was living in there. Upon spiking it out with the toothpick, we both felt better.

Rob

[Rob]

There are times that are especially annoying when trying to adjust a Mack cable operated clutch. Replacing the worn fork and shaft bushings is a good start. Worn clevis's and pins can be compensated for if not too badly worn. Since you are not replacing the clutch, it should be close. The actual clutch adjustment is the same on any Spicer clutch. the linkage, and cable mounting points are problems at times. Setting up the clutch brake is the first order of business. The clutch brake itself SHOULD NOT be the limit of the clutch pedal travel. With the pedal at the absolute end of it's travel, adjust the linkage so the clutch brake is just snug. Then go back to the clutch. with just enough pressure on the fork to pull the clearance out of the bearing you should have 1/2 in between the bearing and brake. A 1/2 in drill bit is a good guage. At rest you should have 1/8 in clearance between the fork and the bearing. This should translate to 1 1/2 to a little more pedal travel at the top. As the clutch wears, free travel at the top goes away, As Glenn said go back to the clutch, when adjusted back to 1/2 in, you get the free travel back without messing up the clutch brake

Here is a three part video on Youtube.

Rob

[rhasler]

Rob, there should just be a gasket behind the input shaft bearing retainer, if you're getting oil coming around the input shaft I would take a look at any o-ring seals on your PTO shift cover or other air controls on the transmission that might be pressurizing the transmission case.

[theakerstwo]

Also if the trans is setting with front shaft lower than the grease it will leak thru the front on a new trans.It only seals with left hand threads in the front cover against the shaft.

[Rob]

Well I didn't get to clean my transmissions tonight as I feel fast asleep with some much needed "beauty rest", (did no good I'm told). Will pick up the pace tomorrow morning as I'm off all next week doing the vacation thing......

I will change out the input shaft on the donor transmission as it's original is noticably deformed from usage. All looks good internal as far as sliding clutches and hard parts. Taking into account what rhasler has said about "pressurizing the case internally", I will pick up and install a new case vent, then bench check the air system prior to installation. I can't find my socket that fits the large nut retaining the drive yoke, and need to look some more for this. Thought it was kept with the large torque wrench in the "shop box", but apparently not.

Never did locate my shop made weldment plate, nor get the patterned one completed. Actually did use the white plate supplied with the jack and it worked remarkably well. No hint of slippage at all. Used a four ton porto power to jack the rear of the engine and block under the oil pan securely and let the "cribbing" support the weight. Once the trans started to slide back, I adjusted the fore and aft tilt of the jack saddle, and it slid right out without problem. Once down low between the rails, I removed the side mounts from the flywheel housing for clearance to slide the trans out around the fuel tank, and step weldment. Was relieved more parts needing removal was unneeded.

Tomorrow after the parts run I need to drag two B model chassis out of the way in the back of the shop. Somehow my cherry picker got buried behing the RL755LST. This truck is behind a couple incomplete others. Really don't use this much anymore so upon last shop cleaning it was put away first and I guess you know the rest of that story......... I may use the skid steer loader and chain unless I get energetic, but this however is unlikely due to xtreme laziness I possess.

Is there any difference internally between an RTO-12513, and an RTOF-12513? The trans from the truck is the RTOF series and everything is good and tight in the top cover. With the exception of just a bit of concave wear in the shift blocks the shifter actually bears against, all looks good. This is not bad enough to require attention but if the parts I have already including forks etc. are the same, I'll change them out and keep the originals for spares.

Don't want Mark to feel left out so here is another photo of my R795 in various stage of completion:

Thanks,

Rob

[rhasler]

The RTOF should have a forward shift cover (I think they used a lot of these in the International Paystar chassis). The RTO should be the standard cover. As far as I know the rest of the internals are the same.

[Rob]

The RTOF should have a forward shift cover (I think they used a lot of these in the International Paystar chassis). The RTO should be the standard cover. As far as I know the rest of the internals are the same.

I have not taken the top shift cover apart yet. It does look like I can just drop the cover complete onto the donor transmission from my uncalibrated eye. Citing that I do have the shift blocks new and the current ones have a bit of wear, I'd like to replace them as to not have the noise of resonance up the shifter. I also have the isolator kit and plan to cut the shifter handle to install/weld this in.

This is the first Mack with a Fuller I've worked with, so learning a lot here.

Rob