What's The Difference?

[Rob]

Got the old, and the new transmissions cleaned up a bit today. The former transmission was a grungy mess and I took care of that with 200 degree water and 2000 psi. The greasy mess inside the clutch housing really liquified and flew out with the pressure. By the time I'd finished, (bout 1/2 hour) I was legitimately filthy. It is that sticky "goo" that one needs to clean up with solvent as regular hand soap won't really touch it. I bridled up the trans with a chain hanging from my skid steer fork and washed away. The outer case is red oxide in color but you couldn't tell it prior to the wash. The only reason I went to the trouble of this clean up is I will take this one apart to see how it operates, and what went wrong.

One thing I noticed right off is the timing marks for the gearset are not aligned. The left side countershaft is about three teeth out of sync with the mating gear on the mainshaft, and the right countershaft is about five teeth off. I would think these were to align together? They do not appear to spin independent. I also looked down the top of the case to the forward most magnet in the bottom. It is covered in shavings about 1/2 inch deep. Using a lighted mirror I could see the other magnet in the front case and it is just as full. Using a rope like a sling, I can move the mainshaft up about 1/16th of an inch at the front so the front bearings must be shot. All the sliding clutches are showing significant wear to the faces with the forward most one having only about 25% of it's engagement faces left. The mating gear splines are also worn out. Must have had a rough life in usage. This would be a very expensive unit to rebuild given the amount of wear that can be seen although I have no experience.

The only difference I can discern from the RTO-12513, and the RTOF-12513 is the forward most shift fork has less of a bend offset for the sliding clutches due to placement of the shift tower. I have new shift forks for the RTO-12513 but the shift fork that is different is in fine shape from the original cover. I've going to use the original top cover without taking anything apart. As rhasler suggested I did rig up and applied shop air to both transmissions while on pallets on the floor, and shifted each through all gears. I then removed the shifter tower from the old transmission to listen for possible air leakage causing the oily mess up front. With shop air supplied to the inlet, the air compressor running in the background, and traffic running down the hiway, I've got my ear plastered in the top of this transmission. While listening with great intent and focus, swearing I hear nothing, all of a sudden a sound starts like one letting the air out of a balloon. This sounds much like the rapid rush of air past a diaphragm vibrating violently. When I turn my head to listen with the other ear, I discover "Mouser 1" with his damned nose stuck in the oil filler hole sniffing the gear oil and purring loudly!! The boy has a loud motor at any time but I didn't know he was in the shop. After "shooing" him off, there was no air leakage to be discerned.

I pulled the top cover from the donor trans and started to install the other shift cover but it wouldn't set down level. Removing it again I discovered why; the interlock piston that moves with the slave valve was broken from someone not aligning things before the cover was installed. I removed the other one from the original transmission and thinking the old slave valve was proven good, installed it after bolting the cover down. I then checked everything for function upon replumbing. I then pressure washed the replacement trans again to get the grease from my hands off of it. Tomorrow I'll pick up the PTO rebuild kit, go through it, and install onto the transmission.

Should have the replacement clutch tomorrow also. Machine shop says they'll surface the flywheel while I wait so hope to have the truck roadworthy again over the weekend. Also while the trans is out I've noticed a seepage leak on the power steering pump and hose fittings. This appears easy to get to with the trans out so I'll prolly get that looked into also. The pump looks like a Vickers V20 series so should be easy to get pieces/parts for locally.

On another note. I've finally obtained "S" cam bushings for my B-67 project and am going to assemble the brakes later in the week. I called where I had all the brakes relined asking about turning the drums and got a real shock. They want $7.50 per inch of drum surface to machine them!! The rears are six inch wide, and the fronts four inch. That is $45.00 for each rear, and $30.00 each for the fronts for a grand total of $240.00 just to turn drums. I think that is absurd so I'll borrow my uncle's lathe and either do it myself, or just have him do it for me. I should have known as they were almost twice as expensive on the same Haldex/Anchor 24/24 spring brake, and T16 service chambers I'd purchased elsewhere. Still have to get the flexible hoses and relay valves, (R-12, R-14) to plumb. Am going to plastic on this truck. but will splice into the existing copper.

Another thing on this B67, (I really like this truck) is I'm seriously thinking of installing faster ratios in the rears. I have a good set of 4.17's I could use out of a 72 R model. These were known good but haven't been run in about 10 years when I drove the truck home about 70 miles. It will run right at 65mph on the governor now with the 5.77 rears, but I'd like 75mph to stay with traffic on the flatlands if I have the motor for it. The truck has been on stands since Dec, 2009 so it is time to come down.

Today's ramble finally finished.

Rob

[Rob]

Rob, there should just be a gasket behind the input shaft bearing retainer, if you're getting oil coming around the input shaft I would take a look at any o-ring seals on your PTO shift cover or other air controls on the transmission that might be pressurizing the transmission case.

The PTO is a "340X" series Chelsea and is manual in operation. I also did check out the slave valve on both transmissions and transferred the original to the replacement as it verified good and was in use. Also checked the pressure regulator and it was right at 65psi by my non precision guage in the shop.

Rob

[Rob]

Pulled the input shaft out of the defective transmission today. The bushing that is supposed to be in the end of the input shaft that centers the mainshaft running down the middle of the trans was not existent. These things are such an interference fit they would never come out so I assume the last clutch job performed and the input shaft replaced, it was not installed. The shaft is an OEM Fuller part and they did not used to supply the bushing in the input shaft but do now. If this is the case it's probably been 15 years since the clutch was replaced. I temporarily installed the worn input shaft onto the defective transmission and both the mainshaft vertical play, and input shaft wobble are virtually gone. This bushing, (or lack thereof) my be the culprit to the failure of the transmission but I don't know. The truck parts store gave me a bushing for the input shat and I pressed it into a new aftermarket shaft I have and installed the same after checking for clearance of the oiling hole. All went together well with a new gasket/seal setup. I've still not swapped the output yoke for the driveline but that is about it left to do. I'll pick up the flywheel and new clutch assembly tomorrow and try to put the truck back together over the weekend depending on "Momma's" schedule for me.

Rob

[other dog]

Got the tranny out and on the floor. It took me longer to get the bolt out of the floor pan behind the accelerator pedal that snapped the captive nut loose than the big parts of the job. I didn't want to hurt anything; (these bolts recess in the floor panel). The nut is hidded behind a welded brace that I didn't want to cut loose so couldn't get to it. Didn't even have to remove any fuel tanks which are over 1/2 full each.

After getting the trans out from under the truck I noticed the input shaft looks good but is questionable. It has about 3/8th inch of up and down movement where the replacement is much tighter. The wear surface for the clutch brake is worn where the friction material has worn a recess into the face. The bronze bushing in the end of the throwout bearing has a groove or depression worn into it about 7/16ths wide, (rear to front) from what I think is the input shaft walking. I've not pulled the clutch out yet but will most likely replace it after seeing this. The splines areal look very good with little wear but the donor trans has a new one awaiting installation. I assume there is an oil seal in the front of the trans cause the inside of the clutch housing, (transmission 1/2) is loaded with oil. The clutch and pressure plate area(s) are dry. I'm assuming this has a 14.5" clutch setup as the flywheel is the "bowl" style. I also figger the pilot bearing must but junk to allow the input shaft to move/deflect at all.

I had to steal the "gorilla tape" from Other Dog's blow up doll he left here for repairs, but I'll put it back, "I promise". Didn't want to leave the openings uncovered. I couldn't find any other in the shop, (Sorry Tom) to use.

Gonna get the steam cleaner after both transmissions later tonight. Out of all the conversation about this job not one of you "professional" mechanics mentioned anything about possibly getting dirty. Let me tell you this is not an easy job for a guy to do and keep a white tee shift clean. Soon as "Momma" seen me, I was given a bar of lye soap and ordered to the wash tub in the back yard. She said something about "smellun funny". Might have been that green synthetic lube from the trans dripping on my skull when I was removing bolts underneath. It was running out of my right ear. She got that taken care of with a toothpick. The grease was attracted to a giant "dust ball" that was living in there. Upon spiking it out with the toothpick, we both felt better.

Rob

That's OK, I have another roll. I do not have a backup blowup doll however so i'd appreciate it if you'd quit fooling with them trucks and git 'er fixed asap!

...and next time, wear a dark green, purple, or black t-shirt- that way she won't even notice the grease for several days.

[Rob]

That's OK, I have another roll. I do not have a backup blowup doll however so i'd appreciate it if you'd quit fooling with them trucks and git 'er fixed asap!

...and next time, wear a dark green, purple, or black t-shirt- that way she won't even notice the grease for several days.

Glad you are not upset. However I did purchase a roll of "Super Seal" self vulcanizing, aviation quality repair tape to ensure you never have a problem with the apparatus in the future.

Rob

[vision386]

I was glad to discover that these also come in Large sizes,do they come with a "tire patch" kit in case of over-use,or going flat? radial or tube-type? where is the valve stem? recommended PSI? can they be "capped" in case of premature failure?....Mark

[other dog]

I was glad to discover that these also come in Large sizes,do they come with a "tire patch" kit in case of over-use,or going flat? radial or tube-type? where is the valve stem? recommended PSI? can they be "capped" in case of premature failure?....Mark

wow, that's way better than what I had to hold me over until the repairs are done!

[Rob]

wow, that's way better than what I had to hold me over until the repairs are done!

If you fill with helium, she'll be lighter riding "cowboy".

Rob

[other dog]

If you fill with helium, she'll be lighter riding "cowboy".

Rob

baaaaaa...

[vision386]

While on the road,should the sheep blow-out a replacement can be had at the local "road-pro" store..............

[Rob]

Tonight I removed the clutch and flywheel assembly from the rear of the engine. Will take them in tomorrow afternoon to be machined and get a new clutch assembly. Gonna see if I can drive the truck the first of next week.

I went ahead and ordered a new set of transmission insolators through PAI cause these were replaced with the last clutch job. The hardware is all good but the rubber is slightly crushed from usage. Less than $30.00 for the insolators and new nylock nuts, so not bad at all. Rather not have problems so spending the money up front.

Talked to my buddies who own a hydraulic shop in town and they are going to put a kit into the seeping pump and make a couple of hydraulic hoses to stop the leaks. They say the hoses are marginal after about 30 years of use!

Rob

[Rob]

I can't get the front bearing retaining to break free from the housing in the rebuilt/donor transmission. These things have always basically "fallen loose" everytime I've changed them before. This trans was rebuilt by an independent and they must of glued this sucker in something fierce. I've not put any heat to it but am to that point. The input shaft suffers from clutch wear in the splines and I have a new input shaft , seal, and gasket for it. I've tried slightly oversize bolts in the retaining holes offering a slight resistance and grabbed them with a slide hammer and it won't budge. I can't get to the snap ring out of the main shaft to separate the two with this retainer in place.

Any suggestions? Is heat the next option to soften the obvious sealer used during the prior rebuild?

Another quick statement and question: My favorite truck parts vendor, (who rebuilds transmissions also) has enough parts to completely built up a RTO-12513 to RTO-14613 conversion. Said they used to do this a lot during the early to mid 1980's but no longer. Anyway, they can set me up complete using my original rear housing and genuine Fuller good used, and new parts for $400.00 ready to bolt on. Think I should spend the money?

Thanks,

Rob

[MidniteMechanic]

If you haven't already just pull the bell housing off. It's faster and easier, then you can just wedge a putty knife behind the bearing retainer. If you really dislike the noise of the 125 then the 146 is worthwhile.

[Bollweevil]

I can't get the front bearing retaining to break free from the housing in the rebuilt/donor transmission. These things have always basically "fallen loose" everytime I've changed them before. This trans was rebuilt by an independent and they must of glued this sucker in something fierce. I've not put any heat to it but am to that point. The input shaft suffers from clutch wear in the splines and I have a new input shaft , seal, and gasket for it. I've tried slightly oversize bolts in the retaining holes offering a slight resistance and grabbed them with a slide hammer and it won't budge. I can't get to the snap ring out of the main shaft to separate the two with this retainer in place.

Any suggestions? Is heat the next option to soften the obvious sealer used during the prior rebuild?

Another quick statement and question: My favorite truck parts vendor, (who rebuilds transmissions also) has enough parts to completely built up a RTO-12513 to RTO-14613 conversion. Said they used to do this a lot during the early to mid 1980's but no longer. Anyway, they can set me up complete using my original rear housing and genuine Fuller good used, and new parts for $400.00 ready to bolt on. Think I should spend the money?

Thanks,

Rob

You will never find a better deal on a rear section.

[Rob]

Thanks for the tips on both ends. I'll do it.

Rob

[Rob]

Well, I tore into this thing today to see what makes it tick. A relatively simple contraption once you see how it all works. As I mentioned earlier I got the input shaft out but it was near dark, the trans was hanging on the forks of my skid steer, and I was outside, so really didn't get to look at anything. I set the trans back onto it's pallet and did no more with it. Today I looked at the main input shaft and this trans had the bushing that is pressed into the back side of the input shat that centers up the transmission mainshaft coming apart. This bushing is actually sintered metal and was pushed too far into the bore closing the oiling hole that is provided. The grit was packed inside the front roller bearing that supports the input shaft. The bearing is actually turning blue from lack of lubrication. The mainshaft stub is "down" about .008 on one side, and .004 180 degrees over. The drive splines on the input gear that mesh with the first gear inside the transmission are defective as one can see marks in them from floating metal being "squished" between the gear teeth. The inside of this gear where the sliding clutch engages was loaded with grindings so something is grinding apart rapidly.

I removed the rear section also. When I removed the rear countershaft cover on the left, the cover was almost chewed through from this shaft walking back. The bearing was not staying in it's respective bore so something in the auxilary section has went south also. Looking at the gearset: on the right side I could push the gear back and forth about 1/4". I suppose a snap ring has let go as I'd found parts of one stuck to a magnet. Also stuck to the magnet in the auxilary section was a poppet ball spring from the shift cover someone at one time must have dropped. All springs were in the cover I took off and still are. This spring was near completely encased in grinding dust from wear of the transmission. The syncronizer appears to be in good shape as per my inexperienced eye. There is plenty of friction material present and no gouging to the tapered surface the syncronizer bears against when engaged. This transmission never had a problem shifting even given the wear internally. All the gears are very, very shiney; like a mirror surface. A couple of the low speed gear actually are worn "concave" and getting sharp on the edges.

All in all a really nice learning experience for me. Never had a Roadranger apart before, but think I could rebuild one of these quite easily now that I've seen one and analyzed it for operation. Pretty ingenious design no matter if it's liked or not. I started to build up the flywheel and clutch assembly but stopped to clean up for the day. I may carry on tomorrow, or Monday. Depends on what "Momma" has in store for me. I mowed yesterday and this morning so good to go for another week there. The flywheel trued up nice with new drive dogs, a new "easy pedal" clutch, pilot bearing, throwout fork and bushings, along with all new seals and gaskets that were disturbed are going in. Hopefully this will be seamless from this point on.

I don't plan to keep this old trans now that it's apart. It will go to my truck parts supplier. They don't have any cores for 12513 series any longer and I'd rather they get some parts if anything rather than it just going on my scrap trailer. I'll be keeping the syncronizer as I have two more of the transmissions just in case. Anything else I should retain?

I'll post photos when I find my extra camera cord. My primary cord is at work.

Rob

[Rob]

Well, I tore into this thing today to see what makes it tick. A relatively simple contraption once you see how it all works. As I mentioned earlier I got the input shaft out but it was near dark, the trans was hanging on the forks of my skid steer, and I was outside, so really didn't get to look at anything. I set the trans back onto it's pallet and did no more with it. Today I looked at the main input shaft and this trans had the bushing that is pressed into the back side of the input shat that centers up the transmission mainshaft coming apart. This bushing is actually sintered metal and was pushed too far into the bore closing the oiling hole that is provided. The grit was packed inside the front roller bearing that supports the input shaft. The bearing is actually turning blue from lack of lubrication. The mainshaft stub is "down" about .008 on one side, and .004 180 degrees over. The drive splines on the input gear that mesh with the first gear inside the transmission are defective as one can see marks in them from floating metal being "squished" between the gear teeth. The inside of this gear where the sliding clutch engages was loaded with grindings so something is grinding apart rapidly.

I removed the rear section also. When I removed the rear countershaft cover on the left, the cover was almost chewed through from this shaft walking back. The bearing was not staying in it's respective bore so something in the auxilary section has went south also. Looking at the gearset: on the right side I could push the gear back and forth about 1/4". I suppose a snap ring has let go as I'd found parts of one stuck to a magnet. Also stuck to the magnet in the auxilary section was a poppet ball spring from the shift cover someone at one time must have dropped. All springs were in the cover I took off and still are. This spring was near completely encased in grinding dust from wear of the transmission. The syncronizer appears to be in good shape as per my inexperienced eye. There is plenty of friction material present and no gouging to the tapered surface the syncronizer bears against when engaged. This transmission never had a problem shifting even given the wear internally. All the gears are very, very shiney; like a mirror surface. A couple of the low speed gear actually are worn "concave" and getting sharp on the edges.

All in all a really nice learning experience for me. Never had a Roadranger apart before, but think I could rebuild one of these quite easily now that I've seen one and analyzed it for operation. Pretty ingenious design no matter if it's liked or not. I started to build up the flywheel and clutch assembly but stopped to clean up for the day. I may carry on tomorrow, or Monday. Depends on what "Momma" has in store for me. I mowed yesterday and this morning so good to go for another week there. The flywheel trued up nice with new drive dogs, a new "easy pedal" clutch, pilot bearing, throwout fork and bushings, along with all new seals and gaskets that were disturbed are going in. Hopefully this will be seamless from this point on.

I don't plan to keep this old trans now that it's apart. It will go to my truck parts supplier. They don't have any cores for 12513 series any longer and I'd rather they get some parts if anything rather than it just going on my scrap trailer. I'll be keeping the syncronizer as I have two more of the transmissions just in case. Anything else I should retain?

I'll post photos when I find my extra camera cord. My primary cord is at work.

Found a cord so here are a few photos. Taking pictures of things is still fun!!

Rob

[Rob]

couple more:

[other dog]

I'll post photos when I find my extra camera cord. My primary cord is at work.

Rob

Rob, I feel like i'm being picked on about my new unit, so now I realize how you feel. Therefore, I will not be picking on you any more...

OK, enough of that- so, where does your primary cord work?

[Rob]

Rob, I feel like i'm being picked on about my new unit, so now I realize how you feel. Therefore, I will not be picking on you any more...

OK, enough of that- so, where does your primary cord work?

It is temporarily out of work but that's alright; Obama's plan will fix it.

Rob

[swjr]

How much of a difference is there in an RTO-14609, and a RTO-14610? Given my limited apptitude in such things I do know one has another gear.........

Really thinking about doing away with the RTO-12513 and the noise. I've looked for a decent priced RTO-14613, but I'm looking for cheap and haven't had much success.

Thanks,

Rob

About 2.5 mph in OD. Iyour tranny is screaming in 4th, you can try lucas [straight with no gear oil]. My 13'5 never did this, so you may have lots of wear ?You can trade it for an RTOO 12513 / 14613 if you wish. there are several rebuilders that have them, and they are about 2500 - 4000.