Ac Chassis Question

[41chevy]

A while back I started to redo the chassis and associated assemblies for my '26 AC. Rob steered me to Huck Bolts to replace all the loose and missing rivets.I got them from the local Fastenall Dealer. The chassis is 100% disassembled, A few brackets and one crossmember were made up to replace unrepairable ones. I dye checked both rails for fatique and stress cracks and found a ton of them around the rivet holes and more along the rear 1/2 of the rails. Mine is a crane carrier from new and I'm sure that has more to do with the cracks than normal use.

Now would you drlll stop holes and weld up the cracks, add a full length plate either on the outside or inside of both rails or look for another chassis. I'm personally leaning to adding a full plate to the outside of each rail and boxing the areas where the turntable mounts to the chassis. Paul

[Rob]

A while back I started to redo the chassis and associated assemblies for my '26 AC. Rob steered me to Huck Bolts to replace all the loose and missing rivets.I got them from the local Fastenall Dealer. The chassis is 100% disassembled, A few brackets and one crossmember were made up to replace unrepairable ones. I dye checked both rails for fatique and stress cracks and found a ton of them around the rivet holes and more along the rear 1/2 of the rails. Mine is a crane carrier from new and I'm sure that has more to do with the cracks than normal use.

Now would you drlll stop holes and weld up the cracks, add a full length plate either on the outside or inside of both rails or look for another chassis. I'm personally leaning to adding a full plate to the outside of each rail and boxing the areas where the turntable mounts to the chassis. Paul

While "stop drilling" will accomplish the desired goad of ceasing a crack from running in a frame, I prefer another method to repair cracking. I like to use a thin slicing wheel, (3/32, or .045 thick) and groove out the crack. You don't have to go all the way through the frame but get pretty deep into the parent material, and grind past the end of the crack. After using the slicing wheel, open the thin grinding trough up a little with a little wider wheel to allow thorough penetration of your welding. Grind the area free of rust or corrosion and then using a 1/8th, or 5/64 7013 welding rod and about 135-150 amps weld up the crack. I prefer to start at the opposite end of the crack where you would have drilled a stop hole. Weld the complete trough you have made closed. Allow the welded area to cool to about 350 degrees and using a temperature marking crayon, keep the weld zone warm at about 350 degrees for a couple of minutes using a torch and neutral flame. Back torch up a bit and keep the temperature warm for a couple more minutes, then allow the weld zone to cool. This last heat treatment will give a little ductility to the frame repair and it won't be so brittle. Fishplating the outer, or inner rail is not a bad idea as a follow up. You could also box the rails as mentioned but I really don't see that truck getting the workout in the future it has in the past.

Myself, I think a bolted fishplate will do you well. If you have an exceptional amount of frame cracking, you may be more cost and time effective to replace the bad section with a donor unit.

Rob

[Bollweevil]

A while back I started to redo the chassis and associated assemblies for my '26 AC. Rob steered me to Huck Bolts to replace all the loose and missing rivets.I got them from the local Fastenall Dealer. The chassis is 100% disassembled, A few brackets and one crossmember were made up to replace unrepairable ones. I dye checked both rails for fatique and stress cracks and found a ton of them around the rivet holes and more along the rear 1/2 of the rails. Mine is a crane carrier from new and I'm sure that has more to do with the cracks than normal use.

Now would you drlll stop holes and weld up the cracks, add a full length plate either on the outside or inside of both rails or look for another chassis. I'm personally leaning to adding a full plate to the outside of each rail and boxing the areas where the turntable mounts to the chassis. Paul

You might be ahead both time and money wise to consider new rails. If you have them apart anyway, and the rails are a straight type rail, that might be the way to go.

[41chevy]

I was thinking of new rails this afternoon. I'll have to do a few things, measure up the rail dimensions and count up the cracks. Rob your method sound good also. A lot of the cracks are from chassis twist from uneven surfaced and even without being a functional unit, I do think I'd feel safer addressing that with minor boxing. I'm stuck on the "Grumman method" of stop holes, but your way with the heat will also relieve the stress and return the metal qualities. I'll TIG weld the chassis if and when I repair it. I've come to do any and all chassis / structual welds with TIG. I'm used to doing that as per NYDOT and insurance laws. Paul

[Rob]

I was thinking of new rails this afternoon. I'll have to do a few things, measure up the rail dimensions and count up the cracks. Rob your method sound good also. A lot of the cracks are from chassis twist from uneven surfaced and even without being a functional unit, I do think I'd feel safer addressing that with minor boxing. I'm stuck on the "Grumman method" of stop holes, but your way with the heat will also relieve the stress and return the metal qualities. I'll TIG weld the chassis if and when I repair it. I've come to do any and all chassis / structual welds with TIG. I'm used to doing that as per NYDOT and insurance laws. Paul

By all means that would be the way to do it. Stress relief is the key to making the repair last.

I was through the Bethpage plant a couple of times during the 1980's. What part did you work in? I remember them uncovering the wall mural of the F7F production line that had been covered for many years and forgotten about.

Rob

[41chevy]

I was in the northeast corner of plant 2 (the one with the radar ball on the roof ) in dept 022 Airframe weld shop and later in dept 050 Hydraulics. the weld shop my first assignment was the F-14 Tailhook plate, My last was doing Electron Beam welding of the titanium wing pivot boxes. EB used a combo of plasma and laser in a vacum chamber to fusion weld 1 3/4 inch thick titanium. Some of the best education I could get was the Navy Critical Weld Certification. Started fresh out of service in 1972 left in 1985 when budget cuts slashed purchases.. That mural was in the loby of plant 2, now it is in the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Uniondale. Paul

[Rob]

I was in the northeast corner of plant 2 (the one with the radar ball on the roof ) in dept 022 Airframe weld shop and later in dept 050 Hydraulics. the weld shop my first assignment was the F-14 Tailhook plate, My last was doing Electron Beam welding of the titanium wing pivot boxes. EB used a combo of plasma and laser in a vacum chamber to fusion weld 1 3/4 inch thick titanium. Some of the best education I could get was the Navy Critical Weld Certification. Started fresh out of service in 1972 left in 1985 when budget cuts slashed purchases.. That mural was in the loby of plant 2, now it is in the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Uniondale. Paul

I worked on the E2C's Radar(s) when I was in the Navy. During one of the plant tours, I actually watched them weld a Tomcat wing box together through the little portholes in the side of the welding booth. Pretty damned neat. I remember the green liquid pool there. I also ran the bender for a couple of hydraulic lines, and bucked a few rivets too. Real nice people to talk with. I especially liked seeing aircraft being built in plywood jigs and sections rolled around from one station to the next.

Both times I visited there was not enough time to go through the paint shop. I wanted to see the paint booth/room, or building, (whatever it was).

The last time I was there was during the rededication of the Statue of Liberty. The Navy promotional photo taken that day is a plane myself and three others painted at Norfolk where I was stationed. That photo got a lot of exposure for the E2C community as was all over NAS Norfolk for a spell.

Are you saying they moved the mural? There was talk of that happening but uncertainty if it could be done and not destroyed. It really was something to see.

Rob

[41chevy]

I was probbly the welder in EB weld when you saw the wing box welded, the green was a liquid barrier for the beam scatter. The paint shop was 2 parts, a automated small parts line with infrared curing and the hanger. That was big enough to do an E2C and an EA6B at the same time. Remember plant 2 was a little more than 1/4 mile long and just under 1/4 mile wide.

They actually moved 3 murals. The production line with F-4-f's, The Pacific dog fight with Lt Thatch in an F-4F3 and the production line mural. The murals were encased and the entire wall section was moved. Grumman actually brougt in people from the Smithsonian to do it. Plant 3 is now Nassau Police and Homeland Security ,plant 5 was torn down along with the windtunnel and the Drop Hammer building. Plant 2 is now GOYA and Waste Managments offices and warehouse. The run way and truck shop are gone. Just before I left there was 11,000 employed on Long Island working at Grumman, another 9,000 at Republic, 500 at Gyrodyne and 1000 at Sperry. Now Grumman Data Systems has only 150 employed and the others are gone. Even the Navy / Grumman test range at Calverton is abandoned and being vandalized.The last aircraft there was the reconstructed Flight 800.

Every one works in aviation, my aunt and mom in WWII ,my pop, 2 uncles and 3 cousins and my wife and I. Grummans even paid for me to be born. Nothing left except a few museums and a F-14a and a A6B gate guard. Kind sad not even a plaque where Lindberg took off. Guess it doesn't fit in the "new order". Paul

[Rob]

I was probbly the welder in EB weld when you saw the wing box welded, the green was a liquid barrier for the beam scatter. The paint shop was 2 parts, a automated small parts line with infrared curing and the hanger. That was big enough to do an E2C and an EA6B at the same time. Remember plant 2 was a little more than 1/4 mile long and just under 1/4 mile wide.

They actually moved 3 murals. The production line with F-4-f's, The Pacific dog fight with Lt Thatch in an F-4F3 and the production line mural. The murals were encased and the entire wall section was moved. Grumman actually brougt in people from the Smithsonian to do it. Plant 3 is now Nassau Police and Homeland Security ,plant 5 was torn down along with the windtunnel and the Drop Hammer building. Plant 2 is now GOYA and Waste Managments offices and warehouse. The run way and truck shop are gone. Just before I left there was 11,000 employed on Long Island working at Grumman, another 9,000 at Republic, 500 at Gyrodyne and 1000 at Sperry. Now Grumman Data Systems has only 150 employed and the others are gone. Even the Navy / Grumman test range at Calverton is abandoned and being vandalized.The last aircraft there was the reconstructed Flight 800.

Every one works in aviation, my aunt and mom in WWII ,my pop, 2 uncles and 3 cousins and my wife and I. Grummans even paid for me to be born. Nothing left except a few museums and a F-14a and a A6B gate guard. Kind sad not even a plaque where Lindberg took off. Guess it doesn't fit in the "new order". Paul

I wouldn't have remembered the dogfight mural but I stared at it for quite some time when there. Never seen the F4F production line mural that I remember. Maybe it wasn't uncovered yet as they were working on the F7F mural at the time. If you had moderately gray hair in the EB station I would have talked to you. I remember there were two employees at that station and the pool was being serviced one trip. I think it was the second trip where I got to watch the welding. One thing I really remember is that 25000 ton hydraulic press!! That sucker was huge! Although I didn't get to see it press any parts it was something to look at. I also seen the wind tunnel but did not see it operate.

Unbelievable the history and heritage of the "ironworks" that is allowed to pass into oblivion. At least there are books, films etc. to share. I understand Leroy Grumman was an aeronautical genius unafraid to try things to built a sturdy and robust product, quickly. I've read a bit on him and innovations he brought to aviation. I also admire Alexander Seversky for his contributions and the formation of Republic Aviation.

Sorry to see such things gone.

Rob

[41chevy]

I may have been gone by than, Red hair and a beard. The salt and pepper head was the asst department head. To get to EB weld you must have seen the Mitsubushi Milling machine, 25 x 60 foot table set in the floor and a 2 story tool head the operator and observer rode on. It machined the box sections and the wing pivots. They're all gone Grumman, Republic, Fairchild, Seversky, Liberty, Brewster, Gyrodyne and Sperry. Soon across the Sound in Conneticutt Electric Boat, Pratt and Whitney and Sikorsky are winding down and will soon be a memory.

Here is where the rails sit. There are over 400 cracks on the pair. from 1/2 inch to 6 + inches. I think its better to look into rails. Locating a good AC chassis is probbly a crap shot for a good 80 plus year old chassis. I'll probbly call the Warren Company in Falconer, NY to get an estimate on a pair of rails. They have the facilities to duplicate them and heat treat them. Cost wise they're not too bad. I figure if I found a set from a current truck,to fill the unneeded holes, add all the AC mounts cross members and brackets, the cost in labor and materials should be pretty close in cost. Any other ideas ??

[41chevy]

The replacment is unobtainable either used or a copy for a reasonable price. I started to lay out welding up 323 cracks and adding a plate on most of the outer rails. Paul