Rob Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Well with the ongoing saga of my transmission in the R model I got everything I'd wanted changed and swapped from one tranny to the other. Got the PTO overhauled with new gaskets and seals, mounted to the trans with about .009 backlash in the gears. new seals in the rear, and bottom, new gaskets anyplace else that was touched. The trans is suspended from a fork of my skid steer while I manuever the trans jack to set the trans upon it. I decide that since it is hanging at eye level and the air lines are all connected up, I'd charge the air system again and operate the shift functions. Well low and behold, the splitter cylinder leaks a little through the exhaust port. I couldn't hear this before as the trans on a pallet and this port exhausts downward. Kind of a pain because the back section has to come off the trans to change the seals on the actuator rod. Oh well, I'll take care of this tomorrow but thought I was nearing the end of the ordeal. I'll know next time. Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Be careful not to cut the o-ring when installing the shaft. I think the rebuild/gasket kit for the range cylinder comes with a special silicone based o-ring lube. I always apply a light coat to the o-rings and to the shaft. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Be careful not to cut the o-ring when installing the shaft. I think the rebuild/gasket kit for the range cylinder comes with a special silicone based o-ring lube. I always apply a light coat to the o-rings and to the shaft.I lubed that shaft and the rings well. The range cylinder was not leaking but the kit was complete for both the range, and splitter. I didn't realize you had to remove the rear section to re ring the splitter. Hope I can remove the safety wire, back out the jamb bolt, and remove the shaft without haveing to dissassemble the complete back end for access. I have all the gaskets so no problem and this trans is spotless inside. It really came apart easily except they used silicone on the gaskets upon assembly. Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Rob you can remove the 4 cyl mount bolt and rotate it till the lock bolt is looking at you.There is a o/ring inside the cyl sealing the air from the oil. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Rob you can remove the 4 cyl mount bolt and rotate it till the lock bolt is looking at you.There is a o/ring inside the cyl sealing the air from the oil.Thanks Glenn. I pulled the rear section off tonight and will proceed tomorrow and might even slip it into the truck. Got everything built up and ready to go, just don't want any airleaks if possible.Is it possible to remove that lock bolt for the shaft and not remove the rear section?Thanks,Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Ran out to the shop and took the splitter piston apart. Although the "O" rings are soft and supple, the one was leaking air and the bore contained a lot of oil. The range bore was also loaded with oil which I thought unusual. Both of the shafts have pilot grinds on the ends to help not cut the rings when sliding the rods through them. This job gets easier as more experience is gained. If I were doing this while the trans were in the truck I can certainly see where the auxilary section adapter/weldment would be beneficial. That thing is heavy by itself. I've had the trans on the forks hanging by a bridle and remove the auxilary section by hand onto a pallet but it would be a different story underneath it as on a creeper. Be messy too.Can't find my safety wire pliers around here but haven't used them in several years. I need some other parts so I'll grab another set.Getting excited to get this done. Walcott show starts Thursday and don't know if I'll drive this truck or not, but still going non the less.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyp Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Ran out to the shop and took the splitter piston apart. Although the "O" rings are soft and supple, the one was leaking air and the bore contained a lot of oil. The range bore was also loaded with oil which I thought unusual. Both of the shafts have pilot grinds on the ends to help not cut the rings when sliding the rods through them. This job gets easier as more experience is gained. If I were doing this while the trans were in the truck I can certainly see where the auxilary section adapter/weldment would be beneficial. That thing is heavy by itself. I've had the trans on the forks hanging by a bridle and remove the auxilary section by hand onto a pallet but it would be a different story underneath it as on a creeper. Be messy too.Can't find my safety wire pliers around here but haven't used them in several years. I need some other parts so I'll grab another set.Getting excited to get this done. Walcott show starts Thursday and don't know if I'll drive this truck or not, but still going non the less.RobTrust me my friend,,,keep your engine turning FORWARD,,less strain on air filter and rain bonnet,,,randyp Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Well this crap is getting old. After cleaning parts I discovered the rt countershaft bearing in the auxilary section to allow the countershaft to rock side to side almost 1/2". Just for shits and grins, close examination of the former transmission reveals the auxilary section gearset to be in much nicer looking condition than the one I'm currently working on. The syncronizer in the new trans is starting to flake off also. The main gearset in the new trans looks much better than the former however. I'm wondering if I should marry the two best looking sections back together as one unit? I haven't measured anything as of yet and both sets are in the parts washer now. I'll make that determination tomorrow. Regardless, I ordered new countershaft bearings for the auxilary section no matter which one gets used.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollweevil Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Well this crap is getting old. After cleaning parts I discovered the rt countershaft bearing in the auxilary section to allow the countershaft to rock side to side almost 1/2". Just for shits and grins, close examination of the former transmission reveals the auxilary section gearset to be in much nicer looking condition than the one I'm currently working on. The syncronizer in the new trans is starting to flake off also. The main gearset in the new trans looks much better than the former however. I'm wondering if I should marry the two best looking sections back together as one unit? I haven't measured anything as of yet and both sets are in the parts washer now. I'll make that determination tomorrow. Regardless, I ordered new countershaft bearings for the auxilary section no matter which one gets used.Rob The noise associated with a 12513, comes from the rear box. If you have to use it also check the auxillary drive gear fit on the main shaft. I have seen them loose enough to flop. If you can stand it it might be a good time for the 14613 rear. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 The noise associated with a 12513, comes from the rear box. If you have to use it also check the auxillary drive gear fit on the main shaft. I have seen them loose enough to flop. If you can stand it it might be a good time for the 14613 rear.Hi James, I gave them the "go ahead" on the rear box conversion but they are short one obsolete part, (shaft) and are trying to locate one. I need the real estate this truck is taking up and if not back together by the weekend I'm going to make a weldment to support the engine from a chain and drag the truck outside. This job is beyond overtime and my patience is expiring.I had been told about the gear you mention. It is tight on the shaft and the friction surface on the taper is in good conditon. I do think this gear had been replaced as it has good "hobb" marks in the contact faces.I just can't half ass a repair.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyp Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hang in there ole buddy, im pulling for you!!! (well,,in case of gorilla, doing a lil pushing too) Stay with it,,,randyp Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hang in there ole buddy, im pulling for you!!! (well,,in case of gorilla, doing a lil pushing too) Stay with it,,,randyp Well thanks there Randy. I'm not discouraged and going to give up, just out of time I can allot to this job without moving a customer car through. I knew this was going to be slow cause I've never done a Fuller transmission before, (it's not like this is a paying job either).The parts place asked me to bring in both rear boxes and let them evaluate which to use. I'll then install the new bearings into the best box, (at their shop) and put the unit back together at mine. Hopefully this will be seamless from this point. I had also taken the front bearing retainer and bearing for the input shaft to show them as both were "out of sorts". The front bearing retainer is distorted, and gouged from the friction heat of the shaft "wollering" around. I also had the throwout bearing with me which was very "sloppy", (sorta like after getting the gorilla back from you). My adapter was finished being "laser cut" for the auxilary section yesterday. I have to do the welding so changing this out in the truck next time will be a little lighter on the ole back........ Not really too difficult to get to on this truck so should take less than an hour to change out. Having the correct tools is nice.Thanks for the support. Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Make sure the auxiliary is shifted into low range when installing to the main case. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Make sure the auxiliary is shifted into low range when installing to the main case.Thanks, I had been told this also. In fact it's been suggested to plumb a 30psi air line to the range section, (forward port on piston IIRC) to ensure it stays in low when sliding together. I think this would be important if sliding the trans together vertically but I'm not.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Well today was a real bitch with transmission work. I removed both auxilary countershaft covers to discover both rear bearings shot and the ball cages worn, cracked and distorted. As mentioned earlier I took both rear sections with me to the parts store to evaluate which to use and turns out both are junk. The countergears in the old transmission are worn where the bearings ride and the race slips off by finger pressure. These are normally a press fit. With the races removed you can see where the shafts have obviously turned with the races slipping. The gears in this case look much better that the replacement rear. I made the determination to not work with either of them so they will go in the scrap pile. I'll pull my rebuilt and never used trans out of the storage building and slip it in to get use of the truck. I'd been saving this transmission to go behind the V12 project but that is so far down the road.......The main gearbox in the replacement looks really good and when the parts people find that shaft I'm needing, I'll build it up that way. Sure seems like a lot of time wasted but I learned a few things along the way. No harm, no foul this time and nobody got hurt so all's good.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
other dog Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Be careful when installing the shaft. I think the kit comes with a special silicone based lube. I always apply a light coat to the shaft.I sometimes apply a light coat of lube to the shaft too, but not always. Quote Producer of poorly photo-chopped pictures since 1999. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 I sometimes apply a light coat of lube to the shaft too, but not always. If you're doing things right and taking your time there shouldn't be a need to lube the shaft as most of the bores have a self lubricating tendency.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I sometimes apply a light coat of lube to the shaft too, but not always. If you're doing things right and taking your time there shouldn't be a need to lube the shaft as most of the bores have a self lubricating tendency.RobYou guys have it all wrong, you should always apply lube prior to assembly. Doing so helps to ensure that your bore doesn't become "gapped out" and gives you years of enjoyment from your "unit". Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Derned filthy minded truck drivers/owners. 1 Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 You guys have it all wrong, you should always apply lube prior to assembly. Doing so helps to ensure that your bore doesn't become "gapped out" and gives you years of enjoyment from your "unit".Artificial lubricants can plug and foul the bore. Natural lubricant inherent to the species, (ask randyp on that one) has no negative detractors other than smells a bit funny if not washed up shortly after it's use is completed.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhasler Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Artificial lubricants can plug and foul the bore. Natural lubricant inherent to the species, (ask randyp on that one) has no negative detractors other than smells a bit funny if not washed up shortly after it's use is completed.RobYes, routine maintenance is the key. Quote "Mebbe I'm too ugly and stupid to give up!" Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yes, routine maintenance is the key.It's that cleanliness and godliness thing that comes into play.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randyp Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If all else fails, just spit on it,,,randyp Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Well here it is, Friday night. I figger I'm gonna order me a fresh reman RTO-14613 from either, Weller, or Adelman Truck Parts. Both parties will take a defunct RTO-12513 for $2750 exchange. A bit more money than I want to spend but I really need to have dependability out of this truck as it is to be my "pulling unit". I spoke with both parties today while driving to the show and both have ready built boxes on the shelf. Both are also available in Chicago where I'll be all next week at a training class.If anybody has any further suggestions I'm "all ears". Next week I'll have a running truck with either my spare RTO-12513 that is a fresh reman, or a fresh reman RTO-14613 trans yet to be picked up. I've also been thinking of the 10 speed swap but have done nothing other than think on this. Those I speak with suggest staying with the 13 speed.Rob Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
other dog Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Artificial lubricants can plug and foul the bore. Natural lubricant inherent to the species, (ask randyp on that one) has no negative detractors other than smells a bit funny if not washed up shortly after it's use is completed.RobAnd if it doesn't quite smell funny enough, there's always this- 1 Quote Producer of poorly photo-chopped pictures since 1999. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/19741-nuther-small-setback/#findComment-81882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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