Is Volvo Good Or Bad For Mack Trucks?

[bullhusk]

German-owned Freightliner producing trucks in Mexico for the U.S. market, and the proceeds head straight out of the country to Stuttgart. Just like your U.S. dollars flowing to Sweden every time you buy a U.S. Volvo or Mack-branded Volvo. Do you think the Swedes or Germans care about the U.S. economy. They watch their back, and we watch ours.

I haven't been a big Navistar fan in recent years (the idiodic EGR direction), but they and Paccar (Kenworth and Peterbilt) are in fact the only American-owned truckmakers left (plus Oshkosh in the specialty truck field). Given the economy in 2013 and 2014 is probably going to be turbulent (before recovering in 2015), it would be wise for American truck operators to invest in trucks produced by American companies for a while, keeping U.S. money in the U.S. in support of our country's best interest.

I am not a Volvo fan, but I do like the F-Liner and W-Star... but the fact of the matter is that the US money stays in the US because of the Euro having more value then the dollar, thats today... But what has been goin on in Europe lately, the Euro just might be a thing of the past! Now if that happens and the dollar becomes strong again then you will see the foreign countries stop investing in the US and start to pull the dollars out of the US if it becomes 10 to 60% stronger then there money. I see it in my industry (cement) the French, Italians, Greeks and the Germans,all who used to import cement into the US, have bought up all the cement co's in the US

BULLHUSK

[kscarbel]

_{Mr. Logtruckmam, you can't compare today with yesterday. If Mack Trucks had been allowed to "continue" their own independent chassis design (frame) development, the Mack frame today would be equal (or more than likely superior) to the Volvo frames that Mack trucks use today, called the Cornerstone (vocational) and Advantage (highway) chassis. The situation here is a last generation Mack chassis was replaced with a new generation Volvo chassis, rather than a new generation Mack chassis.}

_{The strength of the Mack frame was legendary. Speaking of Mack vocational frames or advanced MH/RWI frames (Ultra-Liner/Super-Liner), they at any point in time had an earned reputation for durability and longevity that was the envy of Mack's competitors.}

[41180]

i know the superliner frames were strong and the CL frames were same as superliner frames i love the rw and cl. they had rugged yet light weight frames. we always were 3k pounds lighter than guys with western star log trucks because of the frame and and mack engine . so we could carry more logs and be more legal weight .

[james j neiweem]

All: As far as I know Mack hasn't made a frame in years. Maybe in the forties and pre forties. A company called Parish made mack frames in the 60's. Dana made the frames in the 70's thru 90's. I am not sure what a volvo frame is but Mack frames are currently made by a local company in PA an offshoot of the Dana line. Mack rear ends are a Mack design but they have been built by Rockwell and Dana in the past. Not sure who makes them now. When people on this site refer to Mack made in many cases it is Mack design but vendor made. Mack cabs are made by the same vendor navistar uses(former Mayflower). The B(Chicago cab) and R model cabs were vendor made. You can see the resemblance of the R and F model in design but the R was a vendor cab and the F was made by Mack.The whole truck manufacturing business is vendor supplied for the most part and has been for a long time. Mack just had more design influence on the components than most companies.

[daveigou]

i know the superliner frames were strong and the CL frames were same as superliner frames i love the rw and cl. they had rugged yet light weight frames. we always were 3k pounds lighter than guys with western star log trucks because of the frame and and mack engine . so we could carry more logs and be more legal weight .

I don't know about you, but there aint nothing shabby about a frame rated for 380,000# GVW. In the past, the corrosion between double frame rails was the only thing that would kill a Mack, with the new generation frames, a double frame is no longer needed in most applications, but assuming your truck is going to be a long wheelbase straight truck with a loader, you can't get away without it.

And for power, I don't know anything out there I would rather have than the Mack - Volvo engine.

[41180]

i dont have a problem with the trucks mack is making now. like i said i think mack is making some of the most competitive trucks they haveade in 10 yrs or more. i love the new titans and gu .

[kscarbel]

Mack frames were always designed/engineered by Mack Trucks. And yes, frame assembly from the 1980s was performed by Dana Spicer's Heavy Systems Assembly Division in Lancaster, PA. Dana claimed they could do it cheaper than Mack (the jobs stayed in Pennsylvania).

(Dana Spicer's Parish division in Reading produced Mack springs for decades)

Now, all Mack, Volvo and Freightliner frames are produced by the Mexican company Metalsa in Roanoke, Virginia. Volvo (and Freightliner) doesn't particularly want you to know that though.

With the beginning of the R-model, Mack began contracting out the assembly of R cabs to Sheller-Globe. They were produced in Norwalk, Ohio and shipped in on specially contructed rail cars to Allentown. It was an arrangement that worked very well.

Mack did continue produce the F-model, CF, Cruise-Liner and Ultra-Liner cabs in-house.

Sheller-Globe purchased Motor Panels of the UK and then put the Norwalk Mack cab plant under its new Motor Panels division. Then that division was sold in 1989 to UK-based CH Industrials, which was sold in 1991 to UK-based Mayflower Vehicle Systems, which was sold in 2005 to CVG (Commercial Vehicle Group, which has acquired Bostrom and National seating).

Thus the CVG cab plant in King's Mountain, NC which produces all Mack cabs (originally located there to supply the now closed Winnsboro, South Carolina Mack plant) inefficiently ships Mack cabs all the way from King's Mountain to Macungie every day by truck (the same ineffiency as having Volvo HQ in Greensboro while the Mack plant is 400 miles away in Macungie)

The Mack MB cab was a odd exception, produced in Ohio by Orrville Metal Specialty Company (which also produced cabs for a great many other truckmakers including Diamond-T, Autocar, International, Dodge, GMC, Ford and Euclid).

I never took issue with certain Mack Trucks-designed components being out-sourced when a supplier (e.g. Dana - spring assemblies) was in a better position to produce that product. However I do have a very serious problem with a Volvo designed truck being branded as a Mack. Wait until the new Volvo/Mack cab is introduced. Then perhaps you'll grasp that the very sad reality that there is no more Mack Trucks. It's just a North American Volvo with the Mack logo (e.g. Chevrolet/GMC). What Volvo has done to this global icon should be a crime.


For those interested, here's some background on Dana Spicer.

1904: Clarence Spicer manufactures universal joints in Plainfield, N.J., for customers including makers of Buick, Wayne, Mack, Olds and Stevens-Duryea vehicles.

1905: Neff E. Parish and John E. Sullivan leave Carpenter Steel Co. to found Parish Manufacturing Co., which produces heat-treated steel automobile frames and chrome-nickel-steel specialties.

1914: Charles Dana invests in and joins Spicer Manufacturing Co.

1916: Dana becomes president and treasurer.

1919: Parish is acquired by what is now named Spicer Manufacturing Co., later known as Dana Corp., and renamed Parish Pressed Steel Co.

1946: Spicer Manufacturing is renamed Dana Corp.

1971: Dana Corp. changes the name of its truck-frame manufacturing operation to Parish Frame Division of Dana Corp.

[41180]

i think the mack cab will remain for a long time. look at western star and freightliner they have different cabs and peterbilt and kenworth have differant cabs. i dont think they would have legthened the mack cab and made new models like the titan and gu designed around that cab id f volvo was planning on making mack and volvom share a cab in the near future, maybe futuremack highway trucks will use a volvo sourced cab. but that remains to be seen. also if volvo doesnt let mack engineer new products why did mack finally just come out with the new carriers that have double lock rears, something mack was behind on for the last 20 years

[besgreen]

I own a 1994 CL 713 E9 500 set-up as a log truck in B.C., Canada. I must say that for a little over 3.5 years I was sentenced to operating (not driving) a Volva piece of Sh*****t so called LOG Truck. I must say that these so called trucks should not be allowed to haul anything but fresh baked bread, as if it is more than a day old, the added extra weight will make it nearly impossible for the truck to "perfom its' daily duties". As the AWE INSPIRING VOLVA doesn't have enough power to pull a straight stick out of a dead dogs ass, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to any life form on this planet. With that being said, I think that Volva isn't going to do any wonders for the Mack name or reputation.

[kscarbel]

The CH cab has been in been in production for almost 26 years. It's on the way out. Really, to keep Mack competitive, it should have been replaced at year 20. Anyway, you'll be hearing about the new Volvo/mack cab in the next 12-18 months. It's a done deal (This is more info that Volvo doesn't particularly want you to know). Unlike the CH cab, their is an argument to produce the new cab in-house at Volvo.

It is amazing that the Mack brand was allowed to have a new Mack style component in the form of the CRD 150/150 rear carriers. Now if the Mack brand was allowed to have its own independent engineers and R&D Center once again to design pedigreed Mack engines, Mack AMT triple countershaft ES300 Maxitorque transmissions, Mack frames and new Mack cabs (to replace the outdated CH and MR cabs), we could all wake up tomorrow and get back to business.

Maybe Warren Buffett, who has no sympathy for the Swedes, will have his Berkshire Hathaway buy Mack back and make it a proud American institution once again.

[james j neiweem]

kscarbe:

I believe a couple of people on this sight have stated that Mack frames came from a firm in Pa. Maybe they just add frame components to the shipped in frames. I

know they come into the Macungie plant with crossmembers, rears, srprings, driveshaft and some mounting hardware. The holes are all drilled also per build sheets. I Thought the first CH models came out about 1991.

[umodelnut]

I really dont know what to say. Im kind of on both sides. I hear people saying theyd rather have an old Mack than a new one, because the old ones were real steel, and the new ones are just "flimsy" as they say. Heres one problem I see:Mack is kind of an east coast truck now a days. Theyre not really big out west or anything, maybe like a 10 state region out side of PA? But I have one question, what percent of Mack does volvo own, or do they own it all? You can tell the old Macks were real steal, because look at my U model. All rusted to hell because it wasnt taken care of like it should have been, but its survived all those 37 years its been alive, and it still runs like a champ. Vinny

[GearheadGrrrl]

BTW, none of the truck makers are "American" companies- Anyone in the world can buy stock in Navistar, Volvo, Daimler, or Paccar. I'm an American and I own stock in Volvo, for example...

[kscarbel]

Given that Paccar and Navistar are incorporated in the United States of America, their corporate officers would be very surprised to hear your view that they are not U.S. companies. However Volvo Group is indeed a Swedish company, and Daimler AG is a German company.

[james j neiweem]

I believe Mack 3p said that Mack frames come from a company in PA. Something LLC and they don't have a web site. Kind of curious all those frames and no website.

[ducky698]

Hi, I said before that Volvo be bad for mack, but I recently drove a new superliner with a triple road train and the 685 MP10. it went quite well, would not use there 12 speed auto tho, that is just not suited, would be running a good old 22918B road ranger and upping the horsepower to 700. a Mack got the bull dog for a reason, they cant loose why the Mack got that dog and should not loose that reason in the fuss of ignorance.

Grant

[GearheadGrrrl]

Given that Paccar and Navistar are incorporated in the United States of America, their corporate officers would be very surprised to hear your view that their companies are not U.S. companies. However Volvo Group is indeed a Swedish company, and Daimler AG is a German company.

Again, ownership is all over the world. If you look at Navistar, I wouldn't be surprised if MAN has some say in the running of the company, given that they supplied the designs for Navistar's 11 and 13 liter engines. Looking at Paccar, they bought DAF from the Dutch government IIRC and with DAF came British Leyland and they bought Foden too. No doubt many shares of Paccar stock were used to make those acquisitions and those shares may still be in Dutch and British ownership.

Fact is, these are stock companies with world wide operations, and anyone in the world can buy the stocks and they can source their boards from anywhere in the world. Thus there are really no big truck manufacturers left that any country can exclusively claim ownership of. And if you think the Paccar products are "all american", go to www.paccar.com and click on the "DAF" logo!

[kscarbel]

As I said before, all Mack, Volvo and Freightliner frames are produced by the Mexican company Metalsa in Roanoke, Virginia (184 Vista Drive). There was never any negative customer feedback to Dana producing Mack chassis (frames) because Dana was a proven American supplier to Mack Trucks for decades. But for obvious reasons, Volvo and Freightliner don't like to publicize that their truck frames are now produced by a Mexican company. Not at all good for business. Usted entiende Señor? That's the sound of dollars flowing out of the U.S. economy and down to Mexico.

MAN has absolutely no control over Navistar. Navistar CEO Dan Ustian will gladly tell you that they have a license agreement to produce U.S. market-adapted MAN 10.5L D20 and 12.4L D26 engines in the United States at its Huntsville, Alabama plant. They pay MAN a license fee. That's all. MAN, majority owned by Volkswagen, is not a Navistar stockholder (In fact, Navistar has a rocky relationship with the Germans).

Paccar bought DAF. As a result, the European truckmaker DAF is now an American-owned company. Pure and simple. it was a brilliant expansion decision by a solid American company that has achieved 73 consecutive years of net profit. As the website clearly states, "DAF Trucks N.V. is a PACCAR company". Perhaps you should contact Paccar CEO Mark Pigott and allow him to confirm for you that Paccar (including DAF) is an American company.

[MackMann85]

_{Not true, Mack frame assemblies are built by LPP in Pennsylvania. Volvo builds the frame assemblies in their VA plant. So maybe you are right for Freightliner but not Mack and Volvo}

[james j neiweem]

ks-Unfortunately you may be right on the universal cab. May 15 fox business news states. Volvo to come out with a new common cab for renault volvo and Mack in sdeptember 2012. It didn't state if it would be cab over or conventional. A little confusing since I don't think Renaut makes an over the road conventional and Mack except for the MR does'nt make an over the road cab over.

[GearheadGrrrl]

First, there are few stockholder owned "american" companies anymore- These companies have owners and directors from all over the world, and where the HQ is or where they're incorporated doesn't mean much anymore. As for the "common cab", they've been headed in that direction for some time- Some of the Euro Volvos and Renaults are getting hard to tell apart!

[kscarbel]

Speaking of European market Volvo FMs and FHs, and Renault Premiums and Magnums, it's unimaginable that anyone could possibly have trouble telling them apart. The two Volvos, clearly different, loosely share a common cab structure. The Renault Premium and Magnum each have unique cab designs which are unmistakeable.

I stand corrected about chassis sourcing. When Mack on-highway trucks were being built along side Volvo trucks at Volvo's New River Valley plant, the frames were sourced from Metalsa in Roanoke. Metalsa continues to supply New River Valley, as well as Freightliner plants in North Carolina (Cleveland, High Point and Mount Holly).

In 2002, when only Mack vocational trucks were produced at Macungie, Dana sold their Parish Frame Division to Lancaster Preferred Partners (LPP), who continued that business of supplying Macungie with chassis modules. Now of course, Mack on-highway truck production has been transferred back to Macungie (since being produced at Mack's former Winnsboro, SC plant and the current Volvo New River Valley, VA plant).

The new universal Volvo-Mack cab will be a conventional. I personally prefer cabovers for their superior visibility, serviceability and other advantages, but current US truck weight laws and U.S. long-haul driver preference for conventionals has regrettably taken over-the-road cabover models off the menu.

Freightliner still produces the Argosy cabover in Cleveland, North Carolina for export, but now only in right-hand drive configuration for South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. The all-new Argosy II is extremely impressive.

Navistar still produces the 9800i cabover, in both left- and right-hand drive, but has moved production to Brazil. It's arguable dated, but updates have kept it a high performer.

[kscarbel]

The official company blurb:

Lancaster Preferred Partners, LLC, based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, provides manufacturing and sequenced just-in-time delivery of Class 8 truck sub-assemblies including axles and chassis. We assemble, sequence, and just-in-time deliver complex customized orders for Mack Trucks allowing them to reduce costs.

However it seems they help their customers to reduce costs at the expense of their employees, the new part-time employee fad.
______________________________________

7/14/2010 (Lancaster New Era / Sunday News)

Employees at Lancaster Preferred Partners, which assembles axles and chassis for heavy trucks at 2919 Old Tree Drive, began picketing Wednesday morning over what they label unfair labor practices.

About 60 employees went on strike while 130 workers continued to assemble truck parts, the company said in a release.

The 60 strikers, part of about 80 full-time workers at the plant, said they are being discriminated against in a "systematic attempt to eliminate full-time employees." Many of those still working at the plant are part-timers, they said.

The workers said the company fires full-time employees for production errors, but part-timers go undisciplined and are even rehired after fights or drug use.

"The meat and potato of the matter is they're suspending full-time people, firing full-time people, and temp people do the same mistakes and get no discipline," said an employee.

The full-time staff said they believe the company's aim is to force them out to make room for cheaper part-time labor.

"We want to work. We don't want to stand out here. At the same time, I don't want to feel like I have a target on me when I come to work," said one employee.

Employees said they have been working without a contract since the plant voted to join the United Auto Workers in 2007.

Workers said they want a contract that will act as a "rule book" for the company, so everyone is treated fairly.

[Frmconcrete09]

Where is this Information retrieved from ?

[kscarbel]

Dana Corporation Announces Expiration of Supply Agreements with Mack Trucks, Inc.

TOLEDO, Ohio, June 12, 2002 / -- Dana Corporation announced today that it has been informed by Mack Trucks, Inc., a part of the Volvo Group, that the truckmaker does not plan to extend its current agreements for supply of chassis assemblies and groomed axles for Mack's on-highway and vocational trucks.

The current chassis assembly agreement with Dana expires at the end of 2003, and the axle agreements expire in May 2004."

We are disappointed by this change of direction by Mack," said Nick Cole, president of Dana's Heavy Vehicle Technologies and Systems Group. "For more than 15 years, Dana has provided the highest caliber of service to Mack -- as we will continue to do in the future."

Cole said Dana generated revenue of $293 million in 2001 from the sale of the chassis assemblies and groomed axles to Mack. Approximately $120 million of these sales consisted of Dana-manufactured components, and the balance was purchased parts, assembly, and other related fees. He said that Dana continues to secure new business that is expected to exceed this loss and is aggressively pursuing further opportunities for its facilities in Lancaster, Pa., and Lugoff, S.C (that had been supplying Mack Macungie and Winnsboro).

"Mack Trucks appreciates the products and services that Dana has provided for more than 15 years. This is a difficult decision due to tough market conditions and restructuring needs, and is not a reflection on the people of Dana, who have delivered quality chassis systems," said Carlos Hungria, Mack's vice president of purchasing. These Dana-Mack contract relationships date back to the mid-1980s, when Dana began supplying fully assembled chassis to Mack's Macungie, Pa., and Winnsboro, S.C., plants. By effectively reducing Mack's supply base from 500 separate component suppliers to just one, Dana was able to reduce the truckmaker's administrative workload with regard to logistics, purchasing, and quality control.

Mack Trucks, Inc., and its parent company, Renault V.I., were acquired by AB Volvo in December 2000.