When Were First Ch's Sold?

[Pete]

I remember seeing black CH's with KAT on the door hauling vans around the Chicago area.They were the first ones I ever saw and no body else seemed to have any.I always wondered if they were some kind of final preproduction real world testing or they bought the first ones .Thi was 90 or91 if I remember right.Anybody know?

Pete

Edited February 25, 2007 by Pete

[GearheadGrrrl]

Advance-United had at least one prototype CH running around in the late '80s/

[Coalbucket]

Winnsboro plant with CH started up producing in somthing like 1988.

[Superdog]

Far as I know,the first production CH's were titled as '89's.I rented a used '89 CH in '91 while my Superliner was in the body shop after a run in with a couple deer.Sure was glad to get back in the Superdog after driving that one.It wasn't spec'd very fancy,and I didn't think much of the way it drove.

[bulldog man]

thats what i was thinking too late 88 early 89

i remember the 1st 1 i saw on the lot down @ TRISTATE Mack in Memphis i thought it was worse looking than the T-600 & T-800 KW's when they 1st cameout .

I rememer asking my granddad "pops is that the model That is gonna replace the R Model?"

He told me "Ihopenot cause i dont plan on buying somthing that ugly " i guess the looks of the CH Grew on me over time cause id own 1 now as long as it was speced to lowbow specs .

but still perfer a ole R Model over a CH Though

later

[Mack Doctor Jr.]

89 was the first year for the CH model. they gave my grandfather the choice of the R or the CH. He chose the R cause he had 23 R's at the time.

I sure thought they were ugly at the time.

[Thaeusler]

89 was the first year for the CH model. they gave my grandfather the choice of the R or the CH. He chose the R cause he had 23 R's at the time.

I sure thought they were ugly at the time.

I worked for Mack at the time and transferred to Winnsboro, From Macungie. The very First truck off the assembly line was in September 1987, It was a Big Red One, to quote The Companies Spokesperson. They were a mess coming off the line. They had only one steering wheel and had to keep taking back to the line drop off. None of them started, they were all towed. They filled up several lots in the winnsboro area, before they got their act together. I know they built a couple hundred in 87 almost all of those were painted mack white. I think it was around mid november of 87 before the second Mack red truck came down the line. It was so screwed up at the time that the newspapers picked up on all the trucks sunk in mud in the fields, and made headlines to the effect that Mack has figured out a new way to build trucks. They are planting them. That plant went from The worst in effeciency to the best in the world and what did mack do. They closed it. The sooner Volvo sells them off the better it will be for everyone. Workers and customers. I thought it was the pits when Renault owned it, but when Volvo took over it really went to Hell. Just my opinion.

Edited March 7, 2007 by thaeusler

[GearheadGrrrl]

Thanks for sharing with us a first hand account of what went down at Winnsboro. IIRC, Mack tried to bust the union by moving production to Winnsboro, but the union went to court and won back those jobs... but they had to move to Winnsboro to keep them. Please share with us more of the story of Winnsboro, especially the human side of the story that we too seldom hear.

[Thaeusler]

Thanks for sharing with us a first hand account of what went down at Winnsboro. IIRC, Mack tried to bust the union by moving production to Winnsboro, but the union went to court and won back those jobs... but they had to move to Winnsboro to keep them. Please share with us more of the story of Winnsboro, especially the human side of the story that we too seldom hear.

I had put that in my story, but as you can see i edited out. I didn't want to come down to hard on the company that i worked with for 26 years. I could have taken my 30 and out on March 4 of this year. I took early retirement in 2002 when they saw fit to build a Mack truck in a Volvo factory. If I seem a little bitter I am. Not so much with Mack as Volvo. I really do believe they are trying to put the Mack brand to sleep. They are having a hard time, but they sure are trying. I would love to tell you the whole story about what took place down there, but I really don't like to talk about it because it brings back a lot of bad memories, and, most people wouldn't believe it. Every single day in that plant was a nightmare until we got the union in. The Union is what really straightend out the plant, not the company. I may be bitter but I still Love Mack Trucks.

Edited March 7, 2007 by thaeusler

[mackdaddy]

It sure would be great to hear Jack Curcio's version of all of this. As he was the CEO of Mack at the time. First CH showed up on the 1989 calendar. The State of PA basically told Mack to go pound sand for any incentives to build the new plant in the Allentown area and the union was not any help either. In fact it was alot of union sabatoge through vendors supplying parts to Mack that nearly broke them. But in the end of it all I have a 94 CH 400HP Mack 18spd and mack rears..........1,100,000 miles and only the turbo and fuel pump as major parts replaced. Tranny whines a little and the rears are getting sloppy but that is a lot of miles.

And it still is a comfortable truck to drive. I am waiting on the new look for the MP engines to come out and I probably will buy another Mack. The Rawhide has caught my attention but I want to see the new truck for the big power. Mack people are still involved in the brand but with the way competition is and the new high tech world we live in it is very difficult for a company to be able to perform it's own research and development for a complete drive train like Mack has offered. You do see all of the other brands now marketing the concept that Mack has offered since it's beginning but they have the financial backing that Mack needed with Volvo. Do any of you remember that the great Zenon Hansen tried hard to broker a deal with Chrysler to own Mack but at that time the FTC denied the merger. How times have changed.....now the FTC accepts even our national security to be at the hands of foreign firms.

[Rob]

I worked for Mack at the time and transferred to Winnsboro, From Macungie. The very First truck off the assembly line was in September 1987, It was a Big Red One, to quote The Companies Spokesperson. They were a mess coming off the line. They had only one steering wheel and had to keep taking back to the line drop off. None of them started, they were all towed. They filled up several lots in the winnsboro area, before they got their act together. I know they built a couple hundred in 87 almost all of those were painted mack white. I think it was around mid november of 87 before the second Mack red truck came down the line. It was so screwed up at the time that the newspapers picked up on all the trucks sunk in mud in the fields, and made headlines to the effect that Mack has figured out a new way to build trucks. They are planting them. That plant went from The worst in effeciency to the best in the world and what did mack do. They closed it. The sooner Volvo sells them off the better it will be for everyone. Workers and customers. I thought it was the pits when Renault owned it, but when Volvo took over it really went to Hell. Just my opinion.

When I was in the Navy based in Norfolk, VA, I frequented Tidewater Mack quite often as they were very good about supporting B models at the time. It was either late March or early April 1988 that a new CH model showed up on the lot. It was not for sale but rather road testing. I remember looking at it and not thinking it was ugly, but rather that Mack had gone "mainstream" with this design. Other than the big grille (plastic) and large "Mack" letters across the front, nothing was outstanding about it. Myself and one of the mechanics talked about how different these new trucks were as neither had seen one before, and what we thought was coming.

Rob

[Thaeusler]

It sure would be great to hear Jack Curcio's version of all of this. As he was the CEO of Mack at the time. First CH showed up on the 1989 calendar. The State of PA basically told Mack to go pound sand for any incentives to build the new plant in the Allentown area and the union was not any help either. In fact it was alot of union sabatoge through vendors supplying parts to Mack that nearly broke them. But in the end of it all I have a 94 CH 400HP Mack 18spd and mack rears..........1,100,000 miles and only the turbo and fuel pump as major parts replaced. Tranny whines a little and the rears are getting sloppy but that is a lot of miles.

And it still is a comfortable truck to drive. I am waiting on the new look for the MP engines to come out and I probably will buy another Mack. The Rawhide has caught my attention but I want to see the new truck for the big power. Mack people are still involved in the brand but with the way competition is and the new high tech world we live in it is very difficult for a company to be able to perform it's own research and development for a complete drive train like Mack has offered. You do see all of the other brands now marketing the concept that Mack has offered since it's beginning but they have the financial backing that Mack needed with Volvo. Do any of you remember that the great Zenon Hansen tried hard to broker a deal with Chrysler to own Mack but at that time the FTC denied the merger. How times have changed.....now the FTC accepts even our national security to be at the hands of foreign firms.

I doubt very seriously if you will ever hear Jack Curcio's story. I'll give you my view of Jack. He almost put Mack under trying to look like a hero, by breaking the Union. He failed, and the reason he failed is because He treated the people that transferred to Winnsboro like dirt. They treated the transferees as they called us like animals. They lied to the people of South Carolina about us. They might have won the Union battle if they weren't so screwed up in their treatment of us. We succeeded by telling the Carolinian workers to watch they way the company treated us, the transferees, and, the way we were being treated is exactly the way the company would be treating them a few years down the road. Those people were promised $13.00 and hour to start, and when we won the right, because of our Union Contract, to transfer to that plant, the company reduced the starting rate to $7.00 an hour, and started hiring anyone they thought could be brainwashed into voting against the Union. Some of the people didn't have a clue about hand tools or parts. They had people walking around the plant holding clipboards looking for nuts and bolts, and when you asked them what they were looking for, they would look at you kind of stupid, pull out a bolt and say One of these, just like this one, only longer. enough about that.

You stated that the state of Pennsylvania told mack to go pound sand. I don't think that is quite the way it went down. Mack originally asked the state to lower their emission standards for the paint department, and Pennsylvania refused to lower their standards. I don't believe Pennsylvania refused to give them incentives, and I know for a fact that the Union did everything in their power to keep the plant in Pa.

I don't know of any Union Sabotage through vendors or otherwise that took place. Almost all of the suppliers to the Winnsboro facility were in the South and were Not Unionized. The Frames came from Lugoff South Carolina, built by Dana in a non Union Plant. The fuel tanks, air tanks were made in South Carollina in non union plants. The wiring Harnesses were from Mexico, so You know they weren't Union made. Maybe you could give us a few examples. I know everytime something happened on the assembly line, mack told the carolinians that we were sabotaging the line. They could never prove it, It always turned out that it was something that they mis-engineered, such as the turns on the lines not running at the same speed as the line itself, and causing the gears to jamb. The Company also took two seats and put them at the entrance to the plant saying that someone poked holes in them. Funny thing was the seats that were there were old, dirty, and not even used in the CH, or R models. Even the Carolinians caught onto that one.

Do you remember when Mack made almost all of their own parts? Do you know what happened there. I had just started in the Machine Shop at Mack, when Crucio asked the union to take a pay cut or they were going to out source all the parts. The Union membership agreed to the pay cuts, and what did Curcio do. He shut down all the Machine and fabricating shops in Allentown and outsourced all that work. Now a lot of you fellows can't get the parts for your older trucks that could have been easily accesible and made right in our own shops.

By the way, The main reason i believe you will never hear Jack Curcio's story is because after he failed to keep the union out, and cost the corporation Hundreds of millions of dollars the Board of Directors fired him. The winnsboro plant was dedicated to him, and after the firing his picture and the plaque dedicating the plant to him was removed from the plant altogether. What does that tell you?

As far as Zenon Hansen goes. I never met him, but I have never heard anything but good about him. From what i heard through all my years at Mack Trucks, Everyone, and I mean Everyone loved Zenon. They tell me that Mack Trucks Was his Life. I wish I had met him.

Just so you know Mack Daddy, that 94 Mack that you are so happy with and proud to own, was Union made in Winnsboro, South Carolina.

[mackdaddy]

You have some history there. We all know that in the end the Mack management did not make the best decisions. I don't know if you caught the Jack Curcio editorial he wrote in the Wheels of Time a few months back. The story I heard was the engine outsourcing such as pistons, cams etc were occasionally screwed with. Just a rumor. Zenon wrote a small booklet called the Legend of the Bulldog and in that he speaks of the bad decison made in moving the engine and tranny plant to Hagerstown. When he took over he almost made the decision to bring it all back to PA but it was just too big of a move. Just so you know I employ 300+ union construction workers and have done so for over 25 years. I sure wish I could get rid of this terrible disease of liking Mack but from the time I was a youngster I was around them.

[Thaeusler]

I could tell you a lot more, but I've already said too much. I don't know who they outsourced their engine parts work too. I thought you were referring to the UAW at Mack when you were talking about sabotaging. I'm not saying that it never happened because I don't know if it did or not. If it did we were never told about it.

I know when I started at Mack a lot of the employees in the Union and Management were talking about the cost of building the engine almost 150 miles from the plants that were using them, and then shipping them in. Like you said Hanson thought it was a mistake and then Curcio comes along and builds another State of the Art Mack Trucks assembly Facility in Winnsboro, South Carolina. Now the Engines are 500 Miles from the assembly line. If the first decision was wrong building the engines 150 miles from the plant, then this one was =====. I'm not even going there. I believe there were 8 engines to a trailer coming from Hagerstown, to winnsboro, and at one point we were building 120 trucks per day. thats 15 tractor trailer loads making a 1000 mile round trip each day. How much do you think that tacked onto the price of the truck. Then we had the Mack transmissions being shipped in also. In my opinion, anyone in Management who voted for that move should have been fired.

I don't want you to think I was attacking you over the Union sabotage remark. Being a Union member, and former employee of Mack. I couldn't just sit back and let that statement go. I'm sure If I made the same remark about your employees sabotaging your work, they would defend your company and their Union also. Been good talking with you. and Keep on Truckin. With Mack that is.

[bulldog man]

Thaeusler to bmt its good to know we have some emploeyes (spell?) here past or present who can shed some light of whats going on w/ or what has went down w/ them also . I HAVE LEARNED A LOT BY READING YOUR POSTS

by reading your posts i now understand why it was getting so hard to find certain parts for our DM's , R's & of course mynamesake & pride & joy "olddog" (ya i was named after a B model )

I just dont like the fact of the sweds owning my beloved Truck &^ hope they dont do to the what they did to my other favorite truck AutoCar & kill them off & A CAR SOME HOW WAS able Hang on after The Sweds ditched them but only as a REFUSE (Garbage ) truck w/ the ole White expiditor chasis

but would like to see them come back out w/ a Conventinal again like a DC OR DK OR A A64 Series or something similar to them . they was some tough trucks ( White motor co. version) & the ones my granddad had when i was growing up hung in there w/ our Dogs .

so i too was 1 who grew up around & got my name too that once was & hopefully will be again if we can get away from the sweds "THE GREATEST NAME IN TRUCKS"

But when i come backto work for my self i wont own later than a 2001 model @ best probably stick back towards a 80's or 90's model R Or DM

LATER

[Thaeusler]

That old Mack Bull Dog is one tough Dog. Renault and Now Volvo have tried their best to Put him to sleep, but the tough old Bull Dog ain't having no parts of it. I don't know how much longer he can hang on, but, I for one, wish he gets his chance, one day, to bite them all on the ass.

[Ray]

PETE,

You are right. KAT bought several black CH's with sleepers in 1990. I know first hand. My company bought 10 of them, used of course, with 400,000 miles on them. Company is phasing out all R models and CH's and going with 2007 Volvo, they have the best warranty for the amount of mileage we do. New motor at 500,000 miles, how can you beat that!?

I have a photo of my black CH in my pictures section. But, I still miss my R model. I really did'nt care if the roof was rotted out, I like convertibles,lol

[Thaeusler]

PETE,

You are right. KAT bought several black CH's with sleepers in 1990. I know first hand. My company bought 10 of them, used of course, with 400,000 miles on them. Company is phasing out all R models and CH's and going with 2007 Volvo, they have the best warranty for the amount of mileage we do. New motor at 500,000 miles, how can you beat that!?

I have a photo of my black CH in my pictures section. But, I still miss my R model. I really did'nt care if the roof was rotted out, I like convertibles,lol

How well I remember the KAT orders. I would bet if you were to begin sanding the paint off your truck you would find up to 10 coats of paint on it. We repainted, and repainted, and repainted almost everyone of their trucks. That was the one thing KAT worried about was the paint. We were told that KAT didn't care how often the truck broke down, the important thing was that when it did break down it was the best looking thing sitting on the side of the road. back in the 90's and 80's we couldn't get the paint to flow the way we wanted it too, and all the trucks were having Orange peel problems. It wasn't the paint but the Government regulations that caused the problems. It took years and years to get it right. In fact Mack replace all their Paint Robots to finally get the paint looking decent. Very Expensive.