Vision CX613 tri-axle dump truck empty weight?

[rxhawg]

I am looking at a 2003 Vision CX613 tri-axle dump truck with 44K camelback, 385/400 engine, 10 sp trans, double framed with a 23 yd steel box. Anyone out there own a truck with similar specs to this who can give me an idea at what it will weigh empty? I have a 96 CH that weighs in at 23,200 but it is single framed and air ride (our first and last air ride bobtail dump truck ). The guy who owns it now guesses it weighs around 23000, could that be right??

Also, we have several CH model day cabs running end dump trailers in addition to the air ride dump but have never run a Vision. Any pros/cons that I should be aware of when comparing the CH613s to the CX?

This is my first post so please be gentle.

[slpwlker]

Cx factory double framed? I would say around 25 to 28k My bobtail Pete double framed is 29 and change

[GearheadGrrrl]

I"d be suspicious, unless the seller can show you some documentation that it came from the factory with the double frame and heavy axles. There are a lot of backyard bodgers who buy a road tractor, stretch and double the frame from the cab back, put on a camelback and float tires in the front, and try to pass it off as a heavy duty straight truck. When I see that kind of stuff on an aero truck like a KW T600 or Mack CX I know it's probably not OEM... Look this truck over VERY carefully!

[slpwlker]

Yeah he is in Ark and those trucks there all seem to be Tractors converted. If memory serves me right in Fl you can not tag a T6 as a dump as they didn't make a heavy spec. But this was quite a few years ago could of changed. I would be leary of it. Tractor conversions do not take the long term abuse for long unless it was heavy spec'd to begin with then it may hold up alot longer

[convoyduel]

The other flag is the 10 speed, not a very common dump truck transmission. I've seen CX and CXU's factory built as straight trucks for a dump now and then, but they were bridge law trucks purpose built for longer hauls with 3/8" frames, 3 or 4 lift axles and a 20'+ bed where the operator was hauling ornamental or specialized river gravel for long hauls and bridging 73k gross. In those cases, the fact that it is a dump truck is more of a non-issue because its not taking the off-road abuse typical of a dump truck application. The RD and Granite chassis were purpose built for the severe abuse the chassis and cab receives off-road, but typically the CH and CX are not unless the severe service option is ordered along with beefier chassis components.

"Dump truck" can refer to an extremely wide range of applications from 20K+ per axle loads down to a 5 or 10 ton dirt dobber or rural gravel hauler. The CX might do okay on the lighter end, but I'd stay away from it on the heavier end. The 44K axles are a good start, but the transmission and engine seem like tractor material. What is you intended application?

[daveigou]

I am looking at a 2003 Vision CX613 tri-axle dump truck with 44K camelback, 385/400 engine, 10 sp trans, double framed with a 23 yd steel box. Anyone out there own a truck with similar specs to this who can give me an idea at what it will weigh empty? I have a 96 CH that weighs in at 23,200 but it is single framed and air ride (our first and last air ride bobtail dump truck ). The guy who owns it now guesses it weighs around 23000, could that be right??

Also, we have several CH model day cabs running end dump trailers in addition to the air ride dump but have never run a Vision. Any pros/cons that I should be aware of when comparing the CH613s to the CX?

This is my first post so please be gentle.

A doubt the lightweight is around 23,000 with a camelback suspension & Mack rears. With Eaton or Meritor (with aluminum carries) and air ride suspension it might get close. CX's had frame and rear axle options that would work for a straight truck, but they never offered a steer axle heavier than 14,600, and that's the part I think is un acceptable. You can usually tell if an inner frame liner is factory or not, because the factory version went up to and included the rear front spring hangers. If the inner frame reinfocement ended under or behind the cab, it was done later.

As far as the transmission, a "C" ratio 10 speed is probably OK for anything but really severe off-road work.

2003 is still the E-Tech engine (pre-EGR) and that's another plus.

Always beware of southern auction trucks. I've seen CX Macks, T600 KWs and FLD freightliners that were stetched freight tractors, and dump beds added for the sole purpose of dumping them at a southern auction as "real" dump trucks. Know where the truck came from and who put it together. That information should be on the door jamb, some call it a "second stage MSO" or some just call it a "ratings" sticker. Be very suspicious if it doesn't have one!

[rxhawg]

Thanks for all the info guys. We're steering clear of this truck for a couple of reasons. I'm pretty sure this was a converted tractor based on the info you guys have given me and knowing where the truck came from when the current owner bought it. We (my dad, bother and I) are going to have to rethink this thing all the way around. Let me give you the scenario then you guys throw out any ideas that you have.

The primary use will be just plain ole dirt/gravel hauling (select fill you might call it). Over the last couple of years we have hualed quite a bit more pit run material (base, sand, 57 rock) into locations where you cannot get in with a trailer. There are plenty of places around to pull dirt and gravel from so running a heavier truck isnt as big of a deal on those hauls because you can churn out plenty of loads. But some of the pit run stuff can run into a decent length haul so getting as light as you can is beneficial for that work. Our goal was to try and stay close to a 19 ton pay load but the more I look at it I don't think that is going to work, not if you go with a "true dump truck" that was built to be a dump truck. Arkansas allows a triaxle dump to gross out at 62000# (according to the IRP office in Little Rock) so to hit a 19 ton load or better the rig is going to have to tare at 24000# or less. So I'm thinking we are in a danged if you do, danged if you don't situation here. Can a Granite or RD even get close to 24000#?

Just FYI, we have run mid to late 80s R model tandems for years but I'm not sure what they tare at. Those are some dang tough trucks!!

Shoot me some ideas. Any advice will be appreciated.

[daveigou]

62,000#? In Pennsylvania you can go 58,400 on a tandem, and 73,280 on a tri axle. At only 62,000 gross you could do with something lighter.

About the lighest steel bodies we see around here are the Bibeau Canadian built hi-tensile steel bodies, no crossmembers and smooth sides.

To get a Granite or an RD doubled framed heavy spec'd truck down to 24,000# is probably not going to happen. In your case, the only way you're going to get down to that weight is consider a single frame truck with 40,000 Eaton or Meritor axles, and some kind of lighter weight suspension, Chalmers or Hendrickson HN.

I think you need to take a look at what your competitors are running, and go from there. Dump trucks are definately regionally different, and what we spec in Pennsylvania probably isn't going to be right for you.

[GearheadGrrrl]

As for the KW T600s bodged into dumps in Florida, seen plenty of them. They can run 44,800 on a tandem in FL and 73,280 on four axles, so there's incentive to stretch and liner the frame on a road tractor and put super singles on the 12,000 pound rated steer axle so it can meet the tire width requirements to run at 73,280... The wheels sticking way outside the front fenders are a dead giveaway! You can also see where the took off the sleeper, etc.. Amazing the junk some folks will run!

I've also seen a lot of short tandem end dump trailers pulled by single axle tractors- I imagine that with the lighter weight they have about the same payload as a 5 axle rig at 80,000 pounds.

[Joe Ditchkus]

I know in Penna. a tandem or tri-axle dump with less than 46,000 lb. rears and 18,000 lb. front axle is a hard to sell unit. For whatever reason 38 or 40,000 rears and suspension do not hold up in dump truck work working in soft material. I run 46 rear 18 lift axle and 20 front axle when loaded to 73,280 and 60 lbs.air in lift axle my front axle weighs out between 17-18,000.I would not want to run a truck at highway speeds with 12,000 front axle loaded heavy. Bearings,kingpins and spindles will not take it. Joe D.

[slpwlker]

As for the KW T600s bodged into dumps in Florida, seen plenty of them. They can run 44,800 on a tandem in FL and 73,280 on four axles, so there's incentive to stretch and liner the frame on a road tractor and put super singles on the 12,000 pound rated steer axle so it can meet the tire width requirements to run at 73,280... The wheels sticking way outside the front fenders are a dead giveaway! You can also see where the took off the sleeper, etc.. Amazing the junk some folks will run!

I've also seen a lot of short tandem end dump trailers pulled by single axle tractors- I imagine that with the lighter weight they have about the same payload as a 5 axle rig at 80,000 pounds.

Seen them but taging them as T6's but try again on the weight. on a Tandem it is 64k and 70k on a tri. steer 20 and 44 on the rear. For a tandem on a single axle tractor and a fl dump it is 73280 same as a tandem unless it is a 39' Frameless

[convoyduel]

In Missouri, we have laws for St. Louis, KC and Springfield that mimic Michigan laws.....no gross and a per-axle weight of 22,400lb. Trick is, its in the metro areas and some interstates are not part of the "zone". Without 44k or 46k axles, your sunk because you're carrying whatever's in your bed on your steer and tandems with the extra axles lifted in the quarries and on-site. 38's and 40's won't handle the abuse for long.

You can get an RD or Granite down that low. There's a ton of single 3/8" frame mixer chassis running around with 18's or 20's on the steer and 44's on the rear. For your application, unless the law specifies otherwise, go with a lower 8 or 10k lift axle to get your 62 gross. Davigou's right, a Bibeau bed is the strongest, lightest steel box I've ever seen and I can't tell you the abuse ours took without a ding. You can drop rip rap on those from a 993 Cat and it wont even ding. I'd look for a Mack RD mixer chassis, get a Bibeau bed and a smaller lift axle. I'd bet you're close to 24k with that combo, especially if you can make a 15' bed work. My '02 RD with a double frame, mack 18, 18/20/44 with a 16' Bibeau boarded up and a full pup plate set-up was 27,000 wet.

[Joe Ditchkus]

I have owned several of the Canadian Hi Tensile Bodies. Bibeau,Brandon and Beau Roc all look almost identical. The reason I was told is that Brandon and Beau Roc are built from members of the family that builds Bibeau. I currently run a 18' Hi Tensile Brandon 1/8" sides 3/16" floor. I mostly haul hot rocks but at times they load the big potatoes in there with no damage so far.I like the tailgate hinge on the Bibeau as when it closes the top hinge lays on a piece of steel for a piece of steel for a very good alignment. Joe D.

[unclebilly]

Sorry to hijack.

I have a 95 Ch613 with air susp. It was a converted day cab tractor. It hauled bulk (oil) before being converted. My truck's gvw is 24600 kgs (54120 lbs) and the rare is 9800 kgs (21560 lbs) if full of fuel.

It is a heavy spec truck but not double framed.

The running gear is all Mack (E7 427, 18 spd, not sure of the gear ratio but it cruises at 60mph at 1600 in top gear).

What is wrong with this set up? I bought the truck for building a road on my farm. So far, I have hauled in 26 loads of clay. When the box is full, it is right on the gvw. So far everything seems ok.

The truck has had the gravel box on for about 10 years.