AIR STARTER

[1MACK1]

1987 R Model E6 350 Air starter

problem is occassionaly about 1 in 20 starts .the starter fails when i hit start button (electric over air type ) air passes to starter but doesnt engage and spin over motor .but on all other starts works fine what do i look for ?

I have lubricated starter at starter end would lubricating from tank help by doing valve and starter ?

thanks in advance for any help

KARL

[Timothy Maikshilo]

1987 R Model E6 350 Air starter

problem is occassionaly about 1 in 20 starts .the starter fails when i hit start button (electric over air type ) air passes to starter but doesnt engage and spin over motor .but on all other starts works fine what do i look for ?

I have lubricated starter at starter end would lubricating from tank help by doing valve and starter ?

thanks in advance for any help

KARL

Karl, send roadusecharges a note. He has a Superliner with the air starter and I'm sure he could answer your questions. He's a good bugger from Kiwi land.

[bad1989gt1]

I had this problem once on my DM897, all I did was take the main air feed line from the tank to the starter off and dumped about a shot glass worth of air tool oil in the line , that made all the difference in the world for my starter , but if its not engauging it could be the Helex or the flywheel gear teeth are bad.

[1MACK1]

have been keeping starter lubed by running lube direct to starter via main line ( starter works fine ) at regular service intervals .

just rebuilt main starter air valve at tank end was very sticky when i remove plunger from valve cleaned up refaced seat end and fitted new o ring kit started a few times all good will see how it goes now will post and let you know thanks

[ThaddeusW]

have been keeping starter lubed by running lube direct to starter via main line ( starter works fine ) at regular service intervals .

just rebuilt main starter air valve at tank end was very sticky when i remove plunger from valve cleaned up refaced seat end and fitted new o ring kit started a few times all good will see how it goes now will post and let you know thanks

Which make is your Air starter, Ingersolrand? There are two types of air starters, one is called pre-engaged and the other is inertia engaged. Pre-engaged air starters have two smaller air lines running from the front of the starter (closest to the flywheel housing), one from the starter knob in the cab(or electric over air solenoid as in your case) and the other to the main air starter valve that runs the motor. The way it works is when you push the start button, the air first flows to a cylinder that forces the starter pinion into mesh with the fly wheel. Once in mesh there is a valve in the starter cylinder which sends air pressure to the second line which in turn opens the main air valve that runs the air motor.

If you have the above setup then make sure the pre-engage piston is actuating the starter pinion. It may be a good idea to un-hook the line from the starter knob/solenoid and get some oil into the pinion cylinder. I don't think that part of the starter circuit is lubricated, only the air motor. If the pre-engage cylinder is shot it might be time for a re-build.

The inertia system works like a car starter. The pinion is on a bendix drive that works by having a thread like groove cut into the pinion shaft. The pinion is spring loaded and when the starter is spun up the pinion is forced into mesh against the springs with the flywheel by "unscrewing" (for lack of a better term). Once the engine starts it spins faster than the starter and the pinion if forced back and held by the springs. That setup has no extra hoses running to the starter motor as the spinning force makes the gears mesh. If that is the case then the bendix drive assembly might be getting hung up, maybe old dry grease is making it stick. Even if the springs were shot it should at least mesh or grind, the springs makes sure it un-meshes when the engine spins up or starter shut off. You will have to drop the starter to check and fix that problem.

[Olivetroad]

Which make is your Air starter, Ingersolrand? There are two types of air starters, one is called pre-engaged and the other is inertia engaged. Pre-engaged air starters have two smaller air lines running from the front of the starter (closest to the flywheel housing), one from the starter knob in the cab(or electric over air solenoid as in your case) and the other to the main air starter valve that runs the motor. The way it works is when you push the start button, the air first flows to a cylinder that forces the starter pinion into mesh with the fly wheel. Once in mesh there is a valve in the starter cylinder which sends air pressure to the second line which in turn opens the main air valve that runs the air motor.

If you have the above setup then make sure the pre-engage piston is actuating the starter pinion. It may be a good idea to un-hook the line from the starter knob/solenoid and get some oil into the pinion cylinder. I don't think that part of the starter circuit is lubricated, only the air motor. If the pre-engage cylinder is shot it might be time for a re-build.

The inertia system works like a car starter. The pinion is on a bendix drive that works by having a thread like groove cut into the pinion shaft. The pinion is spring loaded and when the starter is spun up the pinion is forced into mesh against the springs with the flywheel by "unscrewing" (for lack of a better term). Once the engine starts it spins faster than the starter and the pinion if forced back and held by the springs. That setup has no extra hoses running to the starter motor as the spinning force makes the gears mesh. If that is the case then the bendix drive assembly might be getting hung up, maybe old dry grease is making it stick. Even if the springs were shot it should at least mesh or grind, the springs makes sure it un-meshes when the engine spins up or starter shut off. You will have to drop the starter to check and fix that problem.

Excellent information - I have not had to fool (yet) much with air starters but I get a lot of trucks that have them. I had to replace some on some ex-Roadway trucks a few months ago. They were like a normal type starter, just big assed!

I guess the first type of air starter you describe is what I must have had on some CCC garbage trucks I sold. It was always a little strange sounding when you would hit the button, you would hear a clunk, then a second later the main air supply would engage.

Thanks for the info - yet more free stuff for future use!

[ThaddeusW]

Excellent information - I have not had to fool (yet) much with air starters but I get a lot of trucks that have them. I had to replace some on some ex-Roadway trucks a few months ago. They were like a normal type starter, just big assed!

I guess the first type of air starter you describe is what I must have had on some CCC garbage trucks I sold. It was always a little strange sounding when you would hit the button, you would hear a clunk, then a second later the main air supply would engage.

Thanks for the info - yet more free stuff for future use!

Glad you got something out of the post. I always liked the sound of an air starter, think it started with Mad Max and the New York MTA GMC buses with the Detroit 2 strokes. I almost miss the days when the city buses rolled coal LOL.

[ThaddeusW]

1987 R Model E6 350 Air starter

problem is occassionaly about 1 in 20 starts .the starter fails when i hit start button (electric over air type ) air passes to starter but doesnt engage and spin over motor .but on all other starts works fine what do i look for ?

I have lubricated starter at starter end would lubricating from tank help by doing valve and starter ?

thanks in advance for any help

KARL

Karl,

I re-read your post and I missed something from before. It sounds as if you aren't getting air to the main starter valve at all. First see which of the two styles of motor you have. If its the pre-engage type, what Olive said about hearing the clunk and then the starter motor spinning a second later is a good indicator. If you have a pre-engauge and don't hear the clunk then air isn't getting to the pre-engage cylinder or the pre-engage cylinder is stuck.

It could even be traced to the electric solenoid which can flake out and make either of the two starter types not spin at all. Seen electric valves go bad before in pneumatic systems, sometimes they work sometimes they dont.

Since its 1 in 20 start attempts then it sounds like an intermittent problem that isn't worth chasing down unless it becomes a much bigger problem. I would check to see the type of starter you have (pre or inertia engaged), post it here and we can go from there.

[randyp]

I still member the sound of those air starters on big V-12 cummins on old long nose euclids when I worked in mines. They had a nice unique sound, one you would like to wake your neighbor to, if you didnt like your neighbor,,,,randyp

[Timothy Maikshilo]

Was at a company garage yesterday and mechanic pulled in one of those big yellow monsters. Man what a great sound then he lifted the body all the way up to work under it. Glad the ceiling was high!

[Swishy]

Karl

M80

have had the same problem with a InersolRand for the last few years

I cut to the chase n bought a bran new turbine airstart

I had an occaisonal problem when the air would bypass the vanes

all i did was grab a BF screwdriver n crawled under n worked the flywheel a tad n it would clik n then fine to go

there is a hole under flywheel housing n U can C the cogs on the flywheel n U just force the F/Wheel a bit

"]http://www.khequipment.com.au/]

Clikity ClikCLikCLik

Yes after 36 years of the Ingersol rand with one major overhall me thort best to go 4 a new n

LOL

cya

§wishy

[Olivetroad]

While we are discussing air starters, what is the main reason they even exist?

Fewer batteries?

Spin faster/more power?

Jump start with air line from another truck?

Is there a weight savings?

Just curious.

[thomastractorsvc]

I was told air starters where used for high torque application ( power to weight) and a benefit was it could be used in hazardous areas where fire may be of concern like on generators , ships and chemical/petroleum areas. And of course they don't generate heat the way a electric starters do so they have a longer life and not complex for repair.

[ThaddeusW]

While we are discussing air starters, what is the main reason they even exist? Fewer batteries? Spin faster/more power? Jump start with air line from another truck? Is there a weight savings? Just curious.

They outlast an electric by a factor of at least 3 and can be cranked non stop until you run out of air, they don't burn out. You do save some weight but the starter tank is more bulky than a battery box. Plus air tanks don't need maintenance or wear down like batteries.

And drum roll please..................... You can jump yourself.

Swishy has probably done this himself in the deep interior of Australia. Essentially you have a hose that screws onto the schrader valve of a tire and then use tire air pressure to fill the air starter tank. Figure a road train or semi has at least 18 tires full of 80+ PSI air. Road trains can have well over 40 tires so you have plenty of air to spare. Some guys had hoses that hooked to two or more tires. Once you got yourself jumped you hooked the hose to the trailer supply glad hand and filled your tires back up. In Australia air starters were standard equipment, maybe they still are. If your hundreds of miles into a desert like no mans land you better have the ability to get yourself rolling again. Help isn't coming for days, if they even knew you needed help.

Few guys even use those little 12V air compressors like they have on 4x4's and one guy was asking about a scuba tank to keep as a "jump pack" (yes it will work if you have a standard scuba tank and a 60 gallon starter tank).

[Olivetroad]

They outlast an electric by a factor of at least 3 and can be cranked non stop until you run out of air, they don't burn out. You do save some weight but the starter tank is more bulky than a battery box. Plus air tanks don't need maintenance or wear down like batteries.

And drum roll please..................... You can jump yourself.

Swishy has probably done this himself in the deep interior of Australia. Essentially you have a hose that screws onto the schrader valve of a tire and then use tire air pressure to fill the air starter tank. Figure a road train or semi has at least 18 tires full of 80+ PSI air. Road trains can have well over 40 tires so you have plenty of air to spare. Some guys had hoses that hooked to two or more tires. Once you got yourself jumped you hooked the hose to the trailer supply glad hand and filled your tires back up. In Australia air starters were standard equipment, maybe they still are. If your hundreds of miles into a desert like no mans land you better have the ability to get yourself rolling again. Help isn't coming for days, if they even knew you needed help.

Few guys even use those little 12V air compressors like they have on 4x4's and one guy was asking about a scuba tank to keep as a "jump pack" (yes it will work if you have a standard scuba tank and a 60 gallon starter tank).

Very informative - I had not thought about the tire thing - I am lucky to live where help is just a minute away!

The trucks I have had with air start sometimes have two different air systems. Some of the garbage trucks have had one system for the air brakes, air engine throttle and normal stuff. Then the truck has the air start system that is totally separate, with its own tank and plumbing. Some of them automatically refill themselves after starting, and some you have to open a valve to refill the air start system. The worn out over the road tractors with air start I have scrapped have only had one system, if you lose air in the brake system overnight, you lose all the air.

Are these typical setups?

[ThaddeusW]

Very informative - I had not thought about the tire thing - I am lucky to live where help is just a minute away! The trucks I have had with air start sometimes have two different air systems. Some of the garbage trucks have had one system for the air brakes, air engine throttle and normal stuff. Then the truck has the air start system that is totally separate, with its own tank and plumbing. Some of them automatically refill themselves after starting, and some you have to open a valve to refill the air start system. The worn out over the road tractors with air start I have scrapped have only had one system, if you lose air in the brake system overnight, you lose all the air. Are these typical setups?

I am going to say that I am sure it up to the engineers of the truck manufacturer on how to plumb the systems. But Ingersolrand and even other makes (Such as Gali) have reference plumbing diagrams to go by.

But in a nutshell, the reference diagrams isolate the starter tank from the air system with a check valve, as you mentioned, a totally separate system. The starter tank supplies the air for the starter motor and the in-cab start knob/valve. This way all the leaking brake and auxiliary plumbing does not leave you stranded. If it was done another way id hazard a guess that someone make a few quick and dirty repairs or modified the system. I am sure the engineers at the truck maker would follow the reference diagram, unless they thought their way was better for whatever reason.

The manual re-fill sounds like it surly left a driver or two stranded when they forgot to re-fill after cranking. The road tractors with the single system were probably ordered that way to shave as much weight/cost as possible, The same trucks I am sure had minimal interior comforts, no passenger seat and optional power steering. Probably had to be convinced that a cab was legally required otherwise the driver would be sittin atop the engine on a saddle holding onto the steering wheel for dear life.

[randyp]

They outlast an electric by a factor of at least 3 and can be cranked non stop until you run out of air, they don't burn out. You do save some weight but the starter tank is more bulky than a battery box. Plus air tanks don't need maintenance or wear down like batteries.

And drum roll please..................... You can jump yourself.

Swishy has probably done this himself in the deep interior of Australia. Essentially you have a hose that screws onto the schrader valve of a tire and then use tire air pressure to fill the air starter tank. Figure a road train or semi has at least 18 tires full of 80+ PSI air. Road trains can have well over 40 tires so you have plenty of air to spare. Some guys had hoses that hooked to two or more tires. Once you got yourself jumped you hooked the hose to the trailer supply glad hand and filled your tires back up. In Australia air starters were standard equipment, maybe they still are. If your hundreds of miles into a desert like no mans land you better have the ability to get yourself rolling again. Help isn't coming for days, if they even knew you needed help.

Few guys even use those little 12V air compressors like they have on 4x4's and one guy was asking about a scuba tank to keep as a "jump pack" (yes it will work if you have a standard scuba tank and a 60 gallon starter tank).

I just bout would rather sit in dirt and cry or starve to death than air 40 tires up though,,,maybe thas why they invented flares and cell phones,,,,randyp

[Olivetroad]

I just bout would rather sit in dirt and cry or starve to death than air 40 tires up though,,,maybe thas why they invented flares and cell phones,,,,randyp

The flares would help draw in the buzzards. Hopefully Spot could just eat around on your leg and drink out of the radiator until help arrives?

[1MACK1]

thanks every one for your knowledge as always i have learnt some thing new and hopefully fixed my problem along the way .

the starter i have is the pre engage type so i pulled off the hoses and put in some lube ,relubed the main starter , rekited the main starter valve ,checked over all lines etc then started it up all good even after numerous starts it even started down to 40psi

I have fitted a 12 volt pump that can be used 72 litre per minute takes about 20 to bring tank up to 100 psi ( but have its better than being stranded ) i also have all required hoses to fill from tyres & other trucks if needed you just never know dont want them bloody buzzered getting me out in the desert lol

[1MACK1]

PS Swishy

whens disco going to put on another MACK muster that was a great weekend we went to gatton in sept 2011 but looking foward to seeing all the southern blokes again

Karl

[ThaddeusW]

thanks every one for your knowledge as always i have learnt some thing new and hopefully fixed my problem along the way .

the starter i have is the pre engage type so i pulled off the hoses and put in some lube ,relubed the main starter , rekited the main starter valve ,checked over all lines etc then started it up all good even after numerous starts it even started down to 40psi

I have fitted a 12 volt pump that can be used 72 litre per minute takes about 20 to bring tank up to 100 psi ( but have its better than being stranded ) i also have all required hoses to fill from tyres & other trucks if needed you just never know dont want them bloody buzzered getting me out in the desert lol

Good to hear your problem is solved and glad to help.