need info on specing new fire truck

[joes mack]

we fignaly have a chance of getting a new n.f.p.a. approved fire truck and i have a few questions about specs for it. the tank is going to be 3,000 gal and the pump is going to be 750 or 1,000 g.p.m. to classify as a pumper/tanker. i dont like the chassis the diferent mfg.s offer as they only offer freightliner, international, peterbuilt,or kenworth. no macks what so ever. i have contacted several builders but none offer mack. my concerns are which of these is the better truck, and which engines are most reliable cummins or detroit. and what allison trans do you recomend they offer 4 or 6 speeds. i would like to get a manual trans but n.f.p.a. does not recomend them (or so i am told by m.f.g.) they also recomend a engine with at least 350 H.P. but i was thinking more along the lines of 400 to 450 because of the hills and curvy roads that we have here. if all goes well this one truck will take the place of 3 non compliant trucks. (2 tankers and 1 pumper) and we will gain 500 gallons of water in the process. the truck will only be a 2 door cab and as short as possible and still be compliant as it will be a tandem axle truck because of the tank capicity. any and all info will greatly be appreciated. thanks for reading and giving input on this truck...joe

[hatcity]

YOU are spec'ing the truck.

YOU want a MACK

Spec. a Mack chassis Tell body mfg. to make it happen.

Have you checked E-One?

edit; NFPA does do alot of good, BUT, they seem to feel that everybody has lots of money.

Also, many feel that since NFPA said it, it must be so.

[RowdyRebel]

As long as the chassis is long enough behind the cab, the body can be bolted on. Mack transmissions can run a PTO...or even multiple PTOs....more PTO options on a Mack transmission than any of the other brands. According to the mechanics at the company shop here, they LOVE it when an O/O brings in a Mack to get a blower or a wet kit mounted up. My truck was set up within a couple hours when they put the blower on it. The company trucks (freightshakers, petes, & internationals) aren't so easy....walk into the shop & they have the "new" truck disassembled in order to get the parts & pieces they need to mount up installed.....those other makes just aren't as "user-friendly" when it comes to bolting up parts to make a work truck out of them as a Mack truck is.

As long as you are the one paying for the truck, you get to determine the specs for it. If the body builder won't build you the truck you want, take your money elsewhere. You might end up buying the truck, and then taking the truck to the body builder to have the body mounted rather than buying the truck through them. They might be a "dealer" of those certain makes and get the trucks direct from the factory...where they may not have that ability with a Mack and would have to work with a Mack dealer to get the truck (cutting into THEIR profit, since they wouldn't be making the "sale" on the truck). Basically, they are trying to sell you what they have, not what you want.

[joes mack]

i figured that they get kick backs from the dealers to push off brand trucks. im going to contact fema and see if they have restrictions for the manual trans or if the mfgs are pulling my leg about the trucks and trans since we are trying to get the grant from them if they are not any restrictions someone out there will build a mack im sure i have seen one on fdnytrucks site.

[Terry T]

Off the subject of your questions but the attached pic is of the tanker that I spent a year as engineer on. When this unit was built (1987) it was "THE" tanker in the area. 3,500 gal/1,500 GPM pump. 2 years prior to me coming onto the department an error was made by the operator & he "over-pumped" a mutual-aid pumper & damaged it. My question to you is: If you are going to replace 3 other trucks with this one, why not go to 1,500 gpm & just a touch more water? This unit is a 7 speed but an auto would have been much better IMO because so few on a typical F.D. regularly drive commercial trucks and that can be hard on a transmission & clutch.

One thing about why so many mfg's don't offer Mack may be the truck & engine electronics may not be compatible with any electroincs that they offer (i.e. secondary throttle-up controls, pump controls, etc). Perhaps their electronics will work with Cummins & MB/Detroit, but not with Cat or Mack.

Just a few thoughts from someone who has been away from the fire service for many years but encountered such problems in the past.

T.

[RowdyRebel]

I seem to remember seeing a Bulldog Magazine talking about a Mack factory mod-shop, where they custom built trucks to meet their customer's demands....might look into that option, too. Bypass the "traditional" body builders altogether...

http://www.macktrucks.com/assets/mack/Bulldog/MCKTRK_8315_BDgMag11V4_150.pdf

it's the "big story" on page 4...."The Mod Squad"

On a side note, anyone know where I can get a front bumper like the one on page 10?

[fxfymn]

The job I was on has four Mack/Pierce tankers less than four years old. They will build them.

The proper way to go about this is to draw up a set of specifications that you desire, including the chasis of your choice. The manufacturers will than have the opportunity to take exceptions to the specs as long as they are equivelant. It is than up to the purchasers to decide if the exceptions are acceptable.

Be very careful about specifying specific engines, trannys, etc. Instead ask for performance. For example: " The rig shall pump 1000 gpm, have a 3000 gallon tank capapable of dumping in less than 90 seconds without the operator leaving the driver's seat. It shall accelerate to 45 mph in less than 75 seconds using a diesel engine driven through an automatic transmission and shall stop in less than 150 feet when the brakes are applied at 45 mph." That way the vendor is picking the right power train package and you can hold them to it if the rig fails to perform to specs.

[VALS327]

Hello,

You need to get in touch with Exeter Township Fire Dept PA Station 25. They have a Mack Seagrave tanker (3,000 gal) being built. My understanding is initiatly they were told the Mack Chassis was not N.F.P.A compliant but were proven wrong by the truck comittee. With Mack you get an enginered chassis, single vendor chassis, that in my opinion will out last the compitition. The Chassis is now built and at Seagrave being compleated. I've seen the prints for this rig and its going to be nice.

Good Luck,

Don Holden

[1958 F.W.D.]

Joes Mack, several builders have recently built pumper/tankers on Mack Granite chassis, I know for a fact that KME and Pierce have both done recent units.

Also, consider contacting Toyne Fire Apparatus in Breda, Iowa. www.toyne.com if you want, I am very friendly with their national sales manager Mike Watts, who would be more than happy to talk to you or have the salesperson for your area talk to you. Toyne is relatively unknown outside of the mid-central USA, but have been recently breaking into the east. They built us a custom 1500GPM stainless steel CAFS pumper on a Spartan chassis back in 2007. They are great to deal with and think outside the box. Their staff is top-shelf and I could not reccomend them any more.

Also, if you are buying a spec truck on a state program like COSTARS or whatever, you can customoize to a certain extent, however you might be limited to certain chassis builders.

[umodelnut]

Swanzey Center, NH tanker/pumper.

A Mack would look good in your firehouse!

Jim

MACK WOULD WORK BEST. A fire dept. around here has a Granite tanker and a CH tanker, both tandems. Nice trucks.

[hatcity]

West Redding,CT Granite/Pierce

3000 gal/1500 pump

[bulldogboy]

joes mack:

Another manufacturer who will build on a Mack chassis is 4 Guys from Meyersdale, PA. The Seminole Indian Nation in Florida has two Mack

"Granite"/Pierce 6X6 pumper/tankers. Some manufacturers will buy lots of chassis' to have on hand when orders come in; naturally, they will push to

sell these chassis because they have money tied up on the purchase and need to recoup it. A Mack chassis will not be the cheapest that's why most

departments go with IHC or Kenworth but if you can afford it I say go for it.

Like Terry T says, an automatic for fire apparatus is better due to fewer and fewer people being able to drive a standard. In a volunteer department you

never know who will show up and you hope that someone can drive the rig to the scene. I've seen trucks that could not respond because the guys who

responded to the station could not drive a standard.

Good luck with your new truck; it must be exciting for your department. Hope that you keep the "CF".

bulldogboy

[slpwlker]

joes mack:

Another manufacturer who will build on a Mack chassis is 4 Guys from Meyersdale, PA. The Seminole Indian Reservation in Florida has two Mack

"Granite"/Pierce 6X6 pumper/tankers. Some manufacturers will buy lots of chassis' to have on hand when orders come in; naturally, they will push to

sell these chassis because they have money tied up on the purchase and need to recoup it. A Mack chassis will not be the cheapest that's why most

departments go with IHC or Kenworth but if you can afford it I say go for it.

Like Terry T says, an automatic for fire apparatus is better due to fewer and fewer people being able to drive a standard. In a volunteer department you

never know who will show up and you hope that someone can drive the rig to the scene. I've seen trucks that could not respond because the guys who

responded to the station could not drive a standard.

Good luck with your new truck; it must be exciting for your department. Hope that you keep the "CF".

bulldogboy

Interesting I will look when I get home. I live 1 block from the Hollywood reservation and the guys from roll back and forth reservation to res. Seen a Fliner 4x4 and I think a Kw but no Macks. Unless this is a new addition since I left alittle over a month ago Seminole does not have any Macks

[joes mack]

so far we have two companies that are willing to build on a mack chassis and its only going to make the price slightly higher than the freight liner that they normaly offer. fema says that the manual is still an option for trucks but n.f.p.a. recomends the auto and they pretty much agree for most of the reasons stated in other post and that it is one less distraction for the driver so they can keep an eye on the road and concentrate on what dispatch is telling them instead of shifting gears. im starting to come arround to the auto a bit as the C F has one and we are starting to get more calls than usual so im gettin plenty of seat time with the auto and the C F. unless something changes the CF more than likely will never have another home. as it has now become our first out engine being that im the driver and i live next door to the fire house lol.

[bulldogboy]

Swab Wagon Company from Elizabethville, PA built a 3000 gallon pumper/tanker on a "Granite" chassis for Tylersport, PA in 2009. You can see a picture of it on

the Tylersport website: http://tylersportfireco.com/apparatus.html#Tanker72.

bulldogboy

[bulldogboy]

slpwlker:

I have not seen the Seminole Mack tankers in person, only in pictures. They may be in the Clewiston/Brighton, FL area.

bulldogboy

[slpwlker]

Idk them boys run Brighton to Hollywood all the time. Looks funny seeing a 4x4 running around hollywood. My sister is/was Married to the Cheifs brother I'll pic her brain. Anything is possible though.

[Art Lawrence]

I have seen the Swanzey Center tanker on a drive by, and it is only lacking one thing -- an open cab.

Tankers are really funny things in terms of engineering. Once you get 2000+ gallons, depending on the tank configuration, the baffling system needs attention. Performance cpecs for dumping are critical, because the baffling system and significantly impeded dumping (rear, side). In addition, keep in mind public health laws. If you are thinking about providing potable water, the materials for the tank and piping become an issue, as does the protocol for cleaning after filling from ponds, rivers, etc. It is really tricky. Once you buy a taker that cannot supply potable water, you are stuck with that decision for years.

As an aside, and I am pretty sure you would have thought of this, is transit to an event. Nowadays, one needs to worry about more than just bridges when it comes to weight. Some states will provide weight waivers for tankers used in fire operations, some won't. If you have mutual aid in abutting states, be sure that both of your states will allow a laden tanker on its roads, bridges, etc. Also CAREFULLY map routes where there ARE or COULD BE weight issues that are more practical than legal. I have seen a tanker go through concrete or macadam a couple of times, or totally sunk into the ground.... a real pain.

Finally, yes, you can have a Mack. Plenty of examples out there. I do agree that automatics should be used if at all possible. In circumstances where the terrain is very undulating and hilly, the manuals probably have an advantage. NFPA has turned into something that it was never designed to do - an organization that creates legal liability. Perhaps the legal profession is more at fault, but I have to say that the comment that NFPA thinks that the fire service is made out of money seems to be on target given their behavior over the last 10 years. OK, editorial over. Two cents in.

Art

[fxfymn]

NFPA has turned into something that it was never designed to do - an organization that creates legal liability. Perhaps the legal profession is more at fault, but I have to say that the comment that NFPA thinks that the fire service is made out of money seems to be on target given their behavior over the last 10 years. OK, editorial over. Two cents in.

Far from an NFPA fan; remember their purpose in life is to sell books, not to promote firefighter safety, but the real "villian" behind the standards having the weight of law is the roof rope case in NYC and the Brookline apparatus death from falling out of the jump seat. In both cases the gist of the decisions revolved around the fact that while the standards are not law they are the accepted standard of care. Since then most organizations strive to comply with the standards as a means to protect themselves from liability.

Go with the automatic tranny. In the long run it will be more efficient and safer to operate. I have driven both in pretty busy places and while it may lack the "cool" factor of shifting it does allow the driver to concentrate on the road and what is happening around him/her.

One other thought concerning your original question: Visit other places that have recently purchased a tanker and drive them. If you find one that suits your needs ask to copy their specs. If they refuse, which is doubtful, ask for them under a freedom of information request.

[bulldogboy]

An open cab "Granite"!!!! Wow, that would be awesome although a bit chilly in the winter here in New Hampshire.

bulldogboy

[RowdyRebel]

An open cab "Granite"!!!! Wow, that would be awesome although a bit chilly in the winter here in New Hampshire.

bulldogboy

Gimme a Granite, a chop saw, and a couple minutes & I'll make you an open-top...

[Olivetroad]

I have seen the Swanzey Center tanker on a drive by, and it is only lacking one thing -- an open cab.

Tankers are really funny things in terms of engineering. Once you get 2000+ gallons, depending on the tank configuration, the baffling system needs attention. Performance cpecs for dumping are critical, because the baffling system and significantly impeded dumping (rear, side). In addition, keep in mind public health laws. If you are thinking about providing potable water, the materials for the tank and piping become an issue, as does the protocol for cleaning after filling from ponds, rivers, etc. It is really tricky. Once you buy a taker that cannot supply potable water, you are stuck with that decision for years.

As an aside, and I am pretty sure you would have thought of this, is transit to an event. Nowadays, one needs to worry about more than just bridges when it comes to weight. Some states will provide weight waivers for tankers used in fire operations, some won't. If you have mutual aid in abutting states, be sure that both of your states will allow a laden tanker on its roads, bridges, etc. Also CAREFULLY map routes where there ARE or COULD BE weight issues that are more practical than legal. I have seen a tanker go through concrete or macadam a couple of times, or totally sunk into the ground.... a real pain.

Finally, yes, you can have a Mack. Plenty of examples out there. I do agree that automatics should be used if at all possible. In circumstances where the terrain is very undulating and hilly, the manuals probably have an advantage. NFPA has turned into something that it was never designed to do - an organization that creates legal liability. Perhaps the legal profession is more at fault, but I have to say that the comment that NFPA thinks that the fire service is made out of money seems to be on target given their behavior over the last 10 years. OK, editorial over. Two cents in.

Art

Far from an NFPA fan; remember their purpose in life is to sell books, not to promote firefighter safety, but the real "villian" behind the standards having the weight of law is the roof rope case in NYC and the Brookline apparatus death from falling out of the jump seat. In both cases the gist of the decisions revolved around the fact that while the standards are not law they are the accepted standard of care. Since then most organizations strive to comply with the standards as a means to protect themselves from liability.

Go with the automatic tranny. In the long run it will be more efficient and safer to operate. I have driven both in pretty busy places and while it may lack the "cool" factor of shifting it does allow the driver to concentrate on the road and what is happening around him/her.

One other thought concerning your original question: Visit other places that have recently purchased a tanker and drive them. If you find one that suits your needs ask to copy their specs. If they refuse, which is doubtful, ask for them under a freedom of information request.

My experience with firefighting involves aluminum scoop shovels and wet gunny sacks - but you know how you read something and you can tell that they know what they are talking about? Here you go............two good ones

[03' Big Red]

here is a link to W W engine ans Supply, they are Mack dealers and the Harrisburg, Pa location also is a KME dealer ( Kmart mobile equipment )

they should be able to get you a Mack chassis/KME body unit

http://www.wwengine.com/

[03' Big Red]

here is another link to Duncannon FD in Pennsylvania, they have a 2006 Granite with a KME body.

http://www.duncannonfire.com/apparatusPage.php?5