Spicer Turbomatic issues...

[Marty3d]

Total newbie here. I just bought a 1960 American LaFrance model 900 fire truck with a Continental 749cid gas inline 6 and a Spicer 2-speed turbomatic transmission (model 184). (no, I really don't have any good sense) The truck runs about like it is supposed to - but only in reverse (which is how I drove it home). The transmission is, to my mind anyway, an ingenious novelty. It has an air-disengaged friction clutch in front of a separate torque converter. After the torque converter it has an overrunning clutch and a large splined drum with a shift collar. Low gear is simply driving through the converter. High gear is engaged by a hydraulic clutch pack and engages the drive shaft directly from the friction clutch to the output shaft. The overrunning clutch allows it this to happen and turn faster than the torque converter would have it.

But, it's not working...anybody out there know about these things? I can find very little information anywhere, save for a few older posts on this site.

[slpwlker]

Idk anything about that but Welcome to the jungle

[Frmconcrete09]

Wow, sounds like you know way more about it than I ever will .. Sounds like a rare machine , hope ya figure it out

[41chevy]

Dana Spicer Automatic Guy is / was a member here. Hasn't posted for a while but here is imfo from him

He used to be the engineer/part time seviceman on this unit from 1968 until 1975. I can usually troubleshoot. garritorr@yahoo.com

Hope this helps Paul

[Marty3d]

Dana Spicer Automatic Guy is / was a member here. Hasn't posted for a while but here is imfo from him

He used to be the engineer/part time seviceman on this unit from 1968 until 1975. I can usually troubleshoot. garritorr@yahoo.com

Hope this helps Paul

I found this forum via a search which included his post. I have e-mailed him with no response. I hope that he is well and can respond.

[Olivetroad]

I found this forum via a search which included his post. I have e-mailed him with no response. I hope that he is well and can respond.

Greetings! I am not much help, but I would love to see the system you are working on - any pictures? any of the truck?

[JumperAndSon]

Total newbie here. I just bought a 1960 American LaFrance model 900 fire truck with a Continental 749cid gas inline 6 and a Spicer 2-speed turbomatic transmission (model 184). (no, I really don't have any good sense) The truck runs about like it is supposed to - but only in reverse (which is how I drove it home). The transmission is, to my mind anyway, an ingenious novelty. It has an air-disengaged friction clutch in front of a separate torque converter. After the torque converter it has an overrunning clutch and a large splined drum with a shift collar. Low gear is simply driving through the converter. High gear is engaged by a hydraulic clutch pack and engages the drive shaft directly from the friction clutch to the output shaft. The overrunning clutch allows it this to happen and turn faster than the torque converter would have it.

But, it's not working...anybody out there know about these things? I can find very little information anywhere, save for a few older posts on this site.

I don't know, but it sounds complicated. Why don't you just swap an Allison into it?

Ben

[JumperAndSon]

Total newbie here. I just bought a 1960 American LaFrance model 900 fire truck with a Continental 749cid gas inline 6 and a Spicer 2-speed turbomatic transmission (model 184). (no, I really don't have any good sense) The truck runs about like it is supposed to - but only in reverse (which is how I drove it home). The transmission is, to my mind anyway, an ingenious novelty. It has an air-disengaged friction clutch in front of a separate torque converter. After the torque converter it has an overrunning clutch and a large splined drum with a shift collar. Low gear is simply driving through the converter. High gear is engaged by a hydraulic clutch pack and engages the drive shaft directly from the friction clutch to the output shaft. The overrunning clutch allows it this to happen and turn faster than the torque converter would have it.

But, it's not working...anybody out there know about these things? I can find very little information anywhere, save for a few older posts on this site.

Ohh, by the way,

Ben

[umodelnut]

Welcome, but I dont really know anything about Spicers.

[JumperAndSon]

Welcome, but I dont really know anything about Spicers.

Let's be honest here. You don't know anything about anything.

Cousin Ben

[umodelnut]

Let's be honest here. You don't know anything about anything.

Cousin Ben

Mmmmm, hmmm, sure I dont.

[Marty3d]

Ok, it's raining today so no work under the truck. I am headed out to look at a milling machine - another bit of old iron. I will post photos and what I have been up to ... probably Thurs as the forecast is for Sun. Still no summer here.

[1958 F.W.D.]

Dont listen to the "Bobsey Twins" there......One thinks that all trucks should lean to the side and the other one thinks that you should be mixing oil with gas for all engines and that they need to break the sound barrier at idle........

I am going to cut and pasted your post to an email and send it to my father and see what he says, he has driven several C model mack firetrucks (707 mack gas) and might have some insight.......

[1958 F.W.D.]

Here's what my father had to say....I know it doesnt help you much, but at least you have a little history.....

"This sounds like what Oreland had in the Cs. I drove the old 703 to several fires. Centre Square's early CF had that trans behind a 237 Maxidyne. When Spicer got wind of it they told Mack "you will not ever again." It won't take the torque of a Maxidyne. I don't know how the thing held up over the life of the truck.

I think that trans was originally designed for transit buses. In the 50s the PTC (now SEPTA) got a huge order of GM buses that had 4-71s and that trans or something similar to it. But I think it had some kind of air shift arrangement. I remember riding them an when it was time to upshift, the driver would lift his foot up off of the throttle. You'd hear some air hissing and the trans would go "Wham!" into direct drive. (That order of buses has quite a story of its own behind it. I don't have enough time to tell it right now.)"

[JumperAndSon]

Dont listen to the "Bobsey Twins" there......One thinks that all trucks should lean to the side and the other one thinks that you should be mixing oil with gas for all engines and that they need to break the sound barrier at idle.......

Heeyyyyyy!!!!

Ben

[dek1581]

I don't know, but it sounds complicated. Why don't you just swap an Allison into it?

Ben

all kidding aside, is the allison the same length and if not, what type of modifications (change driveshaft,etc) would have to be done?

[Marty3d]

The Turbomatic is approximately 3 ft long. I can go shorter, but not longer as there is a very short driveshaft from the tranny to the fire pump (only about 14"). I also don't know the details of the engine-transmission connection. I would hope that it is a standard SAE flywheel/bellhousing but I don't know which size yet. Were I to go that route, I would be seriously tempted to install a modern diesel (that 749 cubic inch 6 cylinder gas motor would make an awesome rat rod).

[1958 F.W.D.]

One thing you need to remember about converting a fire truck gas engine to a diesel- most gas engines are anywhere from 2600 to 3200 rpm's. Thousands of firetrucks from that era were converted to 671 Detroits, which are 2100 rpm engines- therefore if you want to maintain your top speed now, you will need to convert your drive axle gearing as well. Or you could convert to something like a Cat 3208 which has some 2800rpm road versions, and not lose all that much. You would need to compare the torque and horsepower curves with what you have now to see if it would work.

As for the tranny, I suspect that an Allison HT740 would probably bolt right up, but again check before you buy.

[dek1581]

One thing you need to remember about converting a fire truck gas engine to a diesel- most gas engines are anywhere from 2600 to 3200 rpm's. Thousands of firetrucks from that era were converted to 671 Detroits, which are 2100 rpm engines- therefore if you want to maintain your top speed now, you will need to convert your drive axle gearing as well. Or you could convert to something like a Cat 3208 which has some 2800rpm road versions, and not lose all that much. You would need to compare the torque and horsepower curves with what you have now to see if it would work.

As for the tranny, I suspect that an Allison HT740 would probably bolt right up, but again check before you buy.

would the allison ht740 be a direct replacement for the spicer 184 and how many speeds(does it have overdrive) does it have?

[Marty3d]

The Continental engine has a 2900 rpm redline. 2800 is preferred. It specs at 265 hp, 540 ft-lbs. I checked up on the HT740, seems it fits everything from 6-71's to 8v92ti's to series 60 detroits and cummins - with an SAE #1 bellhousing. That specs to 21.75" OD, and that is something I can check on.

I don't know the differential ratios, or even the top speed of this rig - so far I have only been able to drive it backwards. If I can locate the ratios, I can calculate road speeds. The HT740 maxes out at 1.00:1 with a lockup TC, same as the Spicer.