RUST CONVERTERS

[burnin oil]

What is everyones opinion on rust converters? I started repairing the roof on the L model a couple of days ago and have some surface rust to deal with. None of the pitting I am repairing is worthy of cutting out the panel and welding in new metal. I wire wheeled them to bare metal and cleaned the caveties as good as I could then applied a paint on rust converter to neutralize anything I couldn't get out or see. Now I am debating if I should leave the converter in place or strip it off before applying the body filler. If it matters the stuff I used is from clean strip and comes in a 8oz bottle. I have read bad things about rust converters but had good success with this stuff when I used it 5-6 years ago on my daily driver in the rocker panels. Only rust to come back is where the paint has been rubbed off from entering the vehicle. Opinions please.

[Underdog]

I have used a product for years called RUST-X from a company called PRO-TEK Industries. I will not endorse the company because their sales tactics are borderline criminal. I had a bad experience involving phone sales and my credit card. That said, it turned out to be a worthwhile product that I have been satisfied with. I use it mostly for rust control on the framerails, and have not had any trouble with paint adhesion over the RUST-X. These products work best if some rust remains on the surface, rather than cleaning down to bare metal as the iron oxide is part of the chemical reaction.

Gregg

[Bigdogtrucker]

Chassis saver,then topcoat!

[burnin oil]

Good info so far. I should clarify that I am not coating the entire roof with converter but only areas that had rust damage. Such as the ring around the clearance lights and horns. I also have a decent size rust spot at the rear top of the cab to tackle where the paint peeled at one time and got resprayed. No through holes there either as I have the headliner out and can see the bottom side. Right now I am only wire wheeling rust spots and once that is done I will strip the paint back to due a layer of body filler and a coat of primer/paint so everything is even. Definatly will need a second round with the body hammer but it is pretty straight for having a pole barn fall on her. Any other opinions are welcome.

[gvam]

I have used a product called Rust Converter from Gemplers. Have had good luck with it on our farm equipment and p/u truck. As Underdog mentioned, this product also works better if there is a little light rust left on as that is how the reaction takes place. It dries pretty even, but I have recently tried a light sanding over it to get the surface smooth prior to primer and then paint. so far so good on that

[thomastractorsvc]

I have used the duplcolors rust converter with good success comes in a spray can put coat on left it came back hit with wire brush and applied then after that used self etching primer then went from there, easy to use as they were both in spray cans.

[Rob]

The so called "rust converters" are a phosphoric acid based product and are not bad if used as label directions state. You are better off using a flap disc on a 5" grinder and smoothing the area, then using a stiff crimped wire brush in a small air, or pencil grinder to remove the rust and pitting. When the metal is smooth and shiney, apply a phosphoric acid based "metal treatment" from an automotive paint supplier but don't allow this to dry. Keep it wet for about five minutes as it will actually raise the molecular pores of the steel. After the dwell time has elapsed, wipe the surface dry with a clean lint free cloth, and then apply a primer surfacer, or as mentioned an acid etch primer commonly referred to as "wash primer". You can skip the phosphoric acid bath and rely solely on the wash primer to accomplish the same task but the chemical etch of the surface will not be as good, or deep.

The better preparation you do, the better the finished product will be.

Rob

[burnin oil]

Good info. Thanks. Unfotunatly I do not have an air supply so I am stuck doing things the old fashioned way. A little more work but not bad. Looks like I will have to find a paint store and look up the chemical wash. My biggest problem is the time frame I am using is so long that I am relying on rattle cans to keep everything in good shape until all the body work is done. At this rate It will be under spray can for a year or two as I have alot of irons in the fire.

[Rob]

Good info. Thanks. Unfotunatly I do not have an air supply so I am stuck doing things the old fashioned way. A little more work but not bad. Looks like I will have to find a paint store and look up the chemical wash. My biggest problem is the time frame I am using is so long that I am relying on rattle cans to keep everything in good shape until all the body work is done. At this rate It will be under spray can for a year or two as I have alot of irons in the fire.

Grab a stiff crimped wire brush to chuck into a drill. These work well and do not generate enough heat into the panel to warp it. Be careful with a flap disc. They can generate a lot of heat and you really don't need to bear down on the grinder/sander. Let the machine do the work.

You would be well served to purchase a 5hp single stage air compressor and purchase needed materials in larger quantity than is available in spray cans. There is very little actual product in those cans and a lot of propellant.

Rob

[burnin oil]

You would be well served to purchase a 5hp single stage air compressor and purchase needed materials in larger quantity than is available in spray cans. There is very little actual product in those cans and a lot of propellant.

Rob

Trust me I wish I had the space in the RV for a large compressor. I have a huge 240v compressor back home at my parents farm that I miss pretty much daily. I could basically run a sandblaster from dusk to dawn with that thing. Fill the hopper and maybe 3 minutes of down time till the sand ran out. I also really miss the ability to use a 3/4" impact! My toys keep getting bigger and I have less space and tools to get the job done. Some days I really wonder how I fit as many tools, a mig welder, acetlyne torch, and all the parts I have into a 35' trailer. I definatly have an understanding wife.

As far as the stiff bristle deal goes, are you talking about the wire wheel that is braided together, maybe 20 strands then another leg? That is what I used on a grinder to clean the rust out. I also have another one without the braids sitting there for stripping the paint back. It works pretty good on paint but not the rust.

[Rob]

Trust me I wish I had the space in the RV for a large compressor. I have a huge 240v compressor back home at my parents farm that I miss pretty much daily. I could basically run a sandblaster from dusk to dawn with that thing. Fill the hopper and maybe 3 minutes of down time till the sand ran out. I also really miss the ability to use a 3/4" impact! My toys keep getting bigger and I have less space and tools to get the job done. Some days I really wonder how I fit as many tools, a mig welder, acetlyne torch, and all the parts I have into a 35' trailer. I definatly have an understanding wife.

As far as the stiff bristle deal goes, are you talking about the wire wheel that is braided together, maybe 20 strands then another leg? That is what I used on a grinder to clean the rust out. I also have another one without the braids sitting there for stripping the paint back. It works pretty good on paint but not the rust.

I was referring to the type of brush about an inch in diameter with the bristles pointing out the end. You bear on the drill forcing the bristles into the pits from the rust.

My wife got tired of parking across the street and told me to build a building so that's what I did.

Rob

[burnin oil]

Never seen that attachment before but it is essentially just a needle gun. I may have to go to Northern and see if they have one in stock.

2 more duty stations with Uncle Sam and I will be doing the same. The wife vetoed any more big toys until I own property somewhere.

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

I have used all sorts of rust converters through the years from many reputable companies and in my honest opinion i think everyone of them is a bunch of witch craft hobbledy hoop bull shit. I think the best thing to do is to sandblast to bare steel and use a good primer. PPG makes a primer called DP 40 that seems to hold up the best out of any primer i've ever used. any rust work that we ever get in the shop we always use it and it seems to work the best. Just my 2 cents

[Rob]

I have used all sorts of rust converters through the years from many reputable companies and in my honest opinion i think everyone of them is a bunch of witch craft hobbledy hoop bull shit. I think the best thing to do is to sandblast to bare steel and use a good primer. PPG makes a primer called DP 40 that seems to hold up the best out of any primer i've ever used. any rust work that we ever get in the shop we always use it and it seems to work the best. Just my 2 cents

PPG's DP series epoxy primer was really good until they were forced to remove the lead content in it and then it was called simply DPLF primer. It is still epoxy based but not near as good with corrosion resistance as it used to be. The grip to bare steel is not a "tenacious" as before. I always purchased DP40, (gray/green), DP48, (white) and DP90, (black). Never purchased any of the other colors as these offered good color blocking by themselves, or mixed together.

Rust converters aren't really any good in my opinion. They are for the most part phosphoric acid based at about 2% concentration. If a person is to use a wire brush, or blast rust from the pores of steel, then apply the acid for about five minutes keeping the surface wet, the grain will actually be "raised" promoting a very good bonding surface for undercoats. This is all your so called "metal prep" solutions are with the addition of colorant added for marketing.

Back in about 1998 or so I moved0 to "Transtar" undercoating products due to cost, and they still had lead in them. In my opinion their products are very cost effective to use including their "high solids" clearcoats/activators. I eliminated PPG out of the shops in the early 2000's and moved to "Sikkens" due to dealer representation. In this area, PPG just priced themselves out of the market. I still have a Sikkens mixing bank in my hobby shop and the paint is kept agitated. I still fix a few cars ever now and then......

Rob

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

your correct. now it's dplf. they removed the lead and now it dries much quicker

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

I'm not a huge PPG fan myself. But I'm definitely not crazy over any Transtar products either. I think there DBC,DBU, and Global basecoats belong in the garbage. however i do like the omni line as well as the shopline and valupro lines ppg offers. I think PPG has a decent clear coat. however if i was to choose i would use BASF's Limco line or there Glasurit line. Some of the best products on the market and with metallics they boast how it's very difficult to get it to blotch and stripe. But as far as these old Mack's are concerned i think PPG's Concept (high end), Omni MTK Acrylic Urethane, or Limco single stage are great products to use. I think these rust converters make a bigger mess

Edited July 14, 2012 by flstf93

[HeavyGunner]

I used stuff called Over Rust on the fertilizer trucks when I worked at the co-op and supposedly it converts the rust into a hard epoxy coating. It seemed to work very well since it did stop rust on those fertilizer trucks.

[Rob]

I'm not a huge PPG fan myself. But I'm definitely not crazy over any Transtar products either. I think there DBC,DBU, and Global basecoats belong in the garbage. however i do like the omni line as well as the shopline and valupro lines ppg offers. I think PPG has a decent clear coat. however if i was to choose i would use BASF's Limco line or there Glasurit line. Some of the best products on the market and with metallics they boast how it's very difficult to get it to blotch and stripe. But as far as these old Mack's are concerned i think PPG's Concept (high end), Omni MTK Acrylic Urethane, or Limco single stage are great products to use. I think these rust converters make a bigger mess

DCC Concept was a very good product when the genuine DU5, or DFX7 hardners were available. Glasurit never caught on around here as they couldn't break the Spies-Hecker line. I demo'd it but never went that route as Sikkens had much better vendor support. Omni I found great for the used car line but the lack of blending offsets, and the lack of good color holdout were definate drawbacks. Place a car in the sun for six to nine months and bring it back in to paint match it and there is a chore for an inexperienced painter. The Omni line of clearcoats did not have enough UV screeners in them to hold up long term, (my opinion) but you do get what you pay for. Never had any problems with Transtar products but they market a lesser expensive line, and the upper line which I think was called "EURO" but can't remember for certain. Always used 3M tape, masking paper, and plastic covers as they were of a seemingly better quality than the generics. Some of the Norton sandpaper was better than 3M, some was worse so that took some getting used to.

I pretty much quite using metal conditioner as it seemed to never get rinsed off properly and the runoff down the sides caused paint problems later on; ie. comebacks. I think PPG's number for wash primer was DX-171 but it's been awhile so could be wrong. It was a dull yellow transparent color.

Rob

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

We have a chip bank of Spies Hecker at the shop and it does give great matches. I think we are one of the only shops that use it (we only use it on new/very late model vehicles) because the closest support for it is 70 miles away. Concept did change but is still a great paint. The transtar "euro" clear was the only thing i ever used and i used it with spot/panel harder and in my opinion the only thing that hardner would be good for would be motorcycle parts because it's so fast. In my opinion transtar's highend isn't as good of a product as ppgs's low end (omni). it's too fast to do a small car hood for my liking but everbody is different. the Sikkens you talk of i've never heard of and i don't think it's available around my neck of the woods at all. but as far as tape i can't stand any of the 3m. the old vanilla tape was good tape. the new vanilla, green, yellow, blue, etc. i haven't found one i like. i don't care for many 3M products anymore. for tape i use ProGrip. it's cheaper, holds better, and clear won't make it curl up like it does to 3m. plus the 3M tears hard for my liking

Edited July 14, 2012 by flstf93

[Rob]

We have a chip bank of Spies Hecker at the shop and it does give great matches. I think we are one of the only shops that use it (we only use it on new/very late model vehicles) because the closest support for it is 70 miles away. Concept did change but is still a great paint. The transtar "euro" clear was the only thing i ever used and i used it with spot/panel harder and in my opinion the only thing that hardner would be good for would be motorcycle parts because it's so fast. it's too fast to do a small car hood for my liking but everbody is different. the Sikkens you talk of i've never heard of and i don't think it's available around my neck of the woods at all. but as far as tape i can't stand any of the 3m. the old vanilla tape was good tape. the new vanilla, green, yellow, blue, etc. i haven't found one i like. i don't care for many 3M products anymore. for tape i use ProGrip. it's cheaper, holds better, and clear won't make it curl up like it does to 3m. plus the 3M tears hard for my liking

Is that "Euro" clear in an red can? If so, it is much too fast for anything but cut ins and very small parts as you mention. The product I liked and still use is in a blue can with two different activators. Never have had any problems with it and seldom need a buffer. I have a heated spray room, (full downdraft) and still like my old Sata NR-92 for basecoat, and the trusty "Accuspray" for clearcoat unless doing rockers. Sikkens is an Akzo-Noble product from Holland. It matches pretty fair but has lost a bit of edge through the years.

I liked the original 3M crepe tape, and the early green tape they came out with as it took a bake cycle pretty good. Never really had any curling problems or adhesive separation. We tried several tape brands but always came back to 3M after beating on the salesman. I did not purchase tape from the paint supplier but rather direct from a 3M distributor.

Rob

Rob

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

the transtar clear i used Rob was the stuff in a blue can. way to fast for my liking. As far as where we spray is an enclosed room with a side draft fan. I spray with a sata 4000 RP gun with a 1.2 tip. let me tell ya that gun is a hoser but if i keep the fluid in a little tight i get no-buff jobs quite often. I'm a firm believer that a clean paint job comes from the amount of prep work you put into it

[Rob]

the transtar clear i used Rob was the stuff in a blue can. way to fast for my liking. As far as where we spray is an enclosed room with a side draft fan. I spray with a sata 4000 RP gun with a 1.2 tip. let me tell ya that gun is a hoser but if i keep the fluid in a little tight i get no-buff jobs quite often. I'm a firm believer that a clean paint job comes from the amount of prep work you put into it

I use a 1.7 tip on my clear gun that is gravity. My base gun, is the 92 Sata using a 1.4 tip. It is not HVLP and I like it. It also uses more material than the Accuspray which has a 43 tip in it for clear. I lay it quick and seldom need to do any finish work. It is fast but I can still get around an entire pickup truck without having melt in problems. Four hours later with just the fan running, (no heat) I can start to assemble carefully. I really don't do completes but a side is about as much as I'll handle any longer.

When I had the "SprayBake" booth operational, (for two painting operations simutaneously) I could get a car sprayed in the room and be drinking a Coke before the painter would even be 3/4 finished applying his clear on the same size job. 10 minute flash time between coats in that room works very well @75 degrees. I suppose it's what you get used to.

Rob

[BrianDzimitrowiczJr]

I use a 1.7 tip on my clear gun that is gravity. My base gun, is the 92 Sata using a 1.4 tip. It is not HVLP and I like it. It also uses more material than the Accuspray which has a 43 tip in it for clear. I lay it quick and seldom need to do any finish work. It is fast but I can still get around an entire pickup truck without having melt in problems. Four hours later with just the fan running, (no heat) I can start to assemble carefully. I really don't do completes but a side is about as much as I'll handle any longer.

When I had the "SprayBake" booth operational, (for two painting operations simutaneously) I could get a car sprayed in the room and be drinking a Coke before the painter would even be 3/4 finished applying his clear on the same size job. 10 minute flash time between coats in that room works very well @75 degrees. I suppose it's what you get used to.

Rob

i'll have to double check on my tip size now that i think of it. i wanna say it's a 1.2. i know it has a small tip. i've never sprayed in a booth nor has my mentor ( my father is a veteran collision repair/resto man/ metal man of over 30 years and runs his own shop to this day). but i do think that every shop/setup is differant and there aren't two people in this country that use the same exact products. us for example use the same gun for sealer/base/ and clear. we never bake except for a rush job and bake the primer. my dad's from the old school of centari acrylic enamel (Dupont) w/ (siphon feed DeVillibis) that you could clear on top it if you waited about 4-8 hours(preferably 8-12). kinda similar to DCC Concept's four hour wait with a PPG (preferably Concept) clear coat ( BTW my father sprayed a B42T for my grandfather while Maddog13407 (matt has 7 years on me) was still wet behind the ears and it's still holding up decent. It's fading some but for being sprayed almost 30 years ago it doesn't look too bad. To us it's known as #32 and can be seen in the 2003 ATHS yearbook at the National Convention is Syracuse)

Brian

Edited July 14, 2012 by flstf93

[Rob]

i'll have to double check on my tip size now that i think of it. i wanna say it's a 1.2. i know it has a small tip. i've never sprayed in a booth nor has my mentor ( my father is a veteran collision repair/resto man/ metal man of over 30 years and runs his own shop to this day). but i do think that every shop/setup is differant and there aren't two people in this country that use the same exact products. us for example use the same gun for sealer/base/ and clear. we never bake except for a rush job and bake the primer. my dad's from the old school of centari acrylic enamel (Dupont) w/ (siphon feed DeVillibis) that you could clear on top it if you waited about 4-8 hours(preferably 8-12). kinda similar to DCC Concept's four hour wait with a PPG (preferably Concept) clear coat ( BTW my father sprayed a B42T for my grandfather while Maddog13407 (matt has 7 years on me) was still wet behind the ears and it's still holding up decent. It's fading some but for being sprayed almost 30 years ago it doesn't look too bad. To us it's known as #32 and can be seen in the 2003 ATHS yearbook at the National Convention is Syracuse)

Brian

I had a couple of guys that liked the 1.2 tips on guns but I couldn't get used to them at all. Not enough material throughput. Damned hard to "tiger stripe" with the small tips however. I've had a lot of spray guns through the years and non bust up the metallic content more evenly than "Accuspray" in my opinion. Those guns however are very time consuming to maintain but the material savings through them offset the inconvienience greatly. I have three of them still.

When I was getting my start in 1973 in the auto body industry, Centari was THE enamel to use. You put that down with 793 hardner, (panel hardner) and use 3602 thinner, it was ready to push out in the rain in about 30 minutes. You could buff in an hour. Just the ticket for high volume shops at the time. When 780S clearcoat became available in 1981, I started using it after Centari set up without problems. As with most first generation products, there was both a learning curve, and minor problems to overcome but these were all worked out.

DeVilbiss spray guns: Now there was the ticket in the 70's. An MBC Devilbiss, .035 fluid tip, and a number 80 aircap and a smooth steady rythm, even a novice could make either lacquer, or enamel look good with little effort on an open floor. Lot of guy, (and girls) liked the Binks Model 7, but it just didn't fit my hand as well as the DeVilbiss products. I had MBC's, JGA's, and several other variants.

The industry has changed significantly since I exited selling the corporate entity in 2006 to an investment firm including all my interests in the operating shops. I retained my own commercial property, infrastructure/equipment, and rights to "dabble" in a bit of side work, but cannot, (and don't want to) be around a production shop atmosphere again. The "margin" is just not there like it used to be.

I have only been employed by a single auto body repair facility in my time, and was fired from there cause I "couldn't get along".

Rob

[Maddog13407]

i dunno where to start on this topic haha. My truck has Dcc on it with DCX61 hardener with Dau75 clear. kinda backwards puttin that old school clear on but it sprays nice if you can still get it. the DBC you might as well brush paint a barn door with. that stuff is total garbage. that old Devilbiss JGA got used alot on my truck along with the new Sata. in my opinion nothin can lay down a good coat of primer like an old school gravity feed Devilbiss.