Question for Mack3p

[Dzlbudman]

I have been noticing more Mdrives being ordered through my store, I was just wondering if they are getting ordered more and more everywere. I also heard that some of the new UPS trucks are getting them.Are you seeing the Manuals fading away on the assembly line?

[Mack 3P]

UPS had a order of a couple M-drives to try them out. M-drive is only available on the CHU & CXU, typically build around 15-20 per day. Hardly build any Eaton Ultra Shifts anymore.

[Dzlbudman]

Alright. Thanks for the reply. Been getting a lot of fuel haulers and oil field company's switching to them.

[kscarbel]

AMT's are a great option for a lot of customers. And ordinarily, I'd want to purchase a Mack pedigreed design AMT tranny. However, Volvo Group cancelled Mack's plans to offer an AMT version of the Maxitorque ES T300 triple-countershaft transmission, the world's most durable transmission, because they want to promote their own single-countershaft I-Shift AMT. (Swedish engineering is always superior - don't you know?)

My thought is, if I can't order a triple-countershaft Mack AMT, I will certainly order the double-countershaft Eaton UltraShift Plus over the single-countershaft Volvo I-Shift. There's no doubt in my mind that that Eaton's latest AMT range (UltraShift Plus) is more durable.

Edited July 26, 2012 by kscarbel

[convoyduel]

If you think Eaton's UltraShift Plus is a good transmission, you've never used one to back a truck into a dock or in an application requiring smooth and slow engagement. There was one in the Mack rental fleet locally and from what I understand, they're getting rid of it because of all of the problems. The M Drives locally are getting rave reviews.

[james j neiweem]

Weather it is a single, double or triple shaft and gear setup is not really the proper question. The proper question is whether

the shafts and gears are designed to handle the torque. If they are then you are good to go. If the one shaft on an M-drive

breaks you are dead in the water. If one shaft breaks on a double or triple counter shaft setup I believe you are also out of action.In theory with the proper metallurgy and shaft cross sections all designs could be made to be equally strong. Another factor to consider is that more parts allows for more chance of failure.

[41180]

there putting m drives in the 685 hp mp10 in australia so they must be pretty rugged

[kscarbel]

_{I hear you, I really do. To each his own. But even the great ZF (thinking global market) went with a dual-countershaft design for their AMTs, moving away from the single-countershaft design of their manuals.}

[kscarbel]

The latest UltraShift Plus AMTs perform well, with the "Low speed maneuverability for docking and trailering" and "Creep Mode for maneuvering with continous low speed control".

It was the predecessor to the current UltraShift Plus, called UltraShift DM3, that used a centrifugal type clutch which engaged via engine speed. At slow speeds when parking or backing into a trailer, the driver would have to increase engine speed to get clutch engagement resulting in a difficult to control vehicle speed.

However with UltraShift Plus, Eaton added an electric clutch actuator so now the clutch can be engaged at idle, which significantly improves slow speed maneuvering. Your experience would be very unusual for UltraShift Plus, but not unusual for the older UltraShift DM3.

Because the transmissions are actually quite different, Eaton should have come up with an all-new name so people don't confuse the new technology UltraShift Plus with the much different older model. UltraShift Plus performance should compare quite comparably with a Volvo I-Shift.

_.

[Dzlbudman]

We haven't had a single mDrive come in with problems. The guys who haven't driven one will always complain, the trans is amazing. Can't even compair it to the Allison. It shifts like a standard, you feel the shifts. What the drivers are liking is there is no jerking in reverse and also the feature of the trans "learning" the load. It starts in different gears from being loaded to unloaded. The fuel mileage is great we have a milk fleet who bought 1 mDrive and 15 10speed Eatons. The mDrive is getting 7.7mpgs and the Eatons are getting 7.3mpg another cool thing about the mDrive is that it has a 750.000 mile warranty.

[kscarbel]

In all fairness, it's hard to talk about MPG unless you have the exact same driver, same spec truck (rear axle ratios, ect.), trailer and load,....the list goes on and on. We all know that two different drivers in two actually identical trucks can deliver very different MPG results. If all factors are the same, the UltraShift Plus, Volvo I-Shift (and rebadged mDrive), and ZF AS Tronic AMTs will all deliver comparable results.

I don't like Allison's arrogant company culture, but I am curious as to how their new twin-countershaft TC-10 hybrid automatic transmission is going to perform. I say hybrid as they've combined a 10-speed twin-countershaft box with a torque-converter (the latter of course being their specialty).

[ThaddeusW]

In all fairness, it's hard to talk about MPG unless you have the exact same driver, same spec truck (rear axle ratios, ect.), trailer and load,....the list goes on and on. We all know that two different drivers in two actually identical trucks can deliver very different MPG results. If all factors are the same, the UltraShift Plus, Volvo I-Shift (and rebadged mDrive), and ZF AS Tronic AMTs will all deliver comparable results.

I don't like Allison's arrogant company culture, but I am curious as to how their new twin-countershaft TC-10 hybrid automatic transmission is going to perform. I say hybrid as they've combined a 10-speed twin-countershaft box with a torque-converter (the latter of course being their specialty).

Fuller did that a while back, called the ceemat. It was an 8LL or something similar with a torque converter instead of a clutch. I suppose the technology wasn't up to snuff.

[theakerstwo]

Fuller did that a while back, called the ceemat. It was an 8LL or something similar with a torque converter instead of a clutch. I suppose the technology wasn't up to snuff.

I think its main problem was the cost of it.

[Mackpro]

Our sister store sold a local fleet 15 CXU's with the MP8 and M-drive's. All the top drivers who are mostly oldtimers did not want to get out of their older CXU's with manual trans and climb into the new CXU's with the M-drives. Lots of bitching and groaning but the boss said just try them for a week. I not lying but the owner of the company/fleet said after a week , 100% of the drivers said to pass their older trucks on down the line and that their not giving up their M-drives. We have had no failures of any kind with the M-drives. I know one very very large dealership that had to replace 2 but it was by Macks request and just a drop in the bucket of the number of M-drives he had running around there.

[Dzlbudman]

Mackpro, we have had one failure and the mDrive got replaced. no reman, a brand new unit.

[kscarbel]

I've driven them all under varying conditions. The Eaton UltraShift Plus, Volvo I-Shift (rebadged in the US market as the Mack mDrive), and ZF AS Tronic AMTs will all deliver comparable results.

Note: ZF will introduce their all new TraXon range of 12- and 16-speed AMTs at the huge IAA international commercial truck show in Hannover, Germany this September.

And this week, The Germans announced that their U.S. "Detroit" brand will begin selling the DT12 AMT transmission (in direct drive and overdrive versions). This transmission is a rebadged Mercedes-Benz "PowerShift 2" G281-12 transmission. The Cascadia, with its Mercedes-Benz OM472 engine (rebadged as DD15) and M-B G281-12 PowerShift 2 transmission, speaks volumes about the decay of American truck industry. The Freightliner is now as German as the Macks are Swedish.

At one time, cutting edge American truckmakers like Mack Trucks for decades put the world on notice that U.S. heavy truck design was second to none (What Volvo has done to Mack Trucks, reduce a global icon to a mere shell of its former self, should be a crime). For a country in which trucking figures so prominently in our history, it is a tragedy that all the trucks on the roads of America today, with the exception of Navistar and Paccar, are produced by the Germans and Swedes. It is utterly humiliating that America no longer has the ability to compete and lead in our own domestic truck market.

[Mackpro]

Going to M-Drive class in the end of October in Atlanta. It's only a 2 day class and most everyone here at our shop has done been to it. I know anything more than a top cover, ECM or output shaft seal and you replace the complete unit. No tearing it down as of yet.

[fjh]

I've driven them all under varying conditions. The Eaton UltraShift Plus, Volvo I-Shift (rebadged in the US market as the Mack mDrive), and ZF AS Tronic AMTs will all deliver comparable results.

Note: ZF will introduce their all new TraXon range of 12- and 16-speed AMTs at the huge IAA international commercial truck show in Hannover, Germany this September.

And this week, The Germans announced that their U.S. "Detroit" brand will begin selling the DT12 AMT transmission (in direct drive and overdrive versions). This transmission is a rebadged Mercedes-Benz "PowerShift 2" G281-12 transmission. The Cascadia, with its Mercedes-Benz OM472 engine (rebadged as DD15) and M-B G281-12 PowerShift 2 transmission, speaks volumes about the decay of American truck industry. The Freightliner is now as German as the Macks are Swedish.

At one time, cutting edge American truckmakers like Mack Trucks for decades put the world on notice that U.S. heavy truck design was second to none (What Volvo has done to Mack Trucks, reduce a global icon to a mere shell of its former self, should be a crime). For a country in which trucking figures so prominently in our history, it is a tragedy that all the trucks on the roads of America today, with the exception of Navistar and Paccar, are produced by the Germans and Swedes. It is utterly humiliating that America no longer has the ability to compete and lead in our own domestic truck market.

Bro these trucks are American Made at least Thats more than can be said for KW at the moment! I hate the fact Volvo took Mack over too, but they have at least kept the build In the US.I was One Of the nay sayers when they took over But they seem to be building the brand I predicted a Volvo Cab by now We still have our own cab and The sales are on the increase! And They realy have there shit together on the emmisions front! Very few problems with the new units ! (aside from the wiring Harnesses)The Mdrive is starting to make inroads and IT IS as good as stated here Its a bit odd to drive but you get used to it!

[kscarbel]

My friend, yes, the Swedes and Germans do logically assemble their US market products in the US. But being that they are foreign companies, their US profits go overseas in support of Sweden's and Germany's economies. Yes, their US factories do benefit the local US economies where they are located, but the big money heads out of the country to their home country headquarters.

However Paccar, for example, builds all their US market heavy trucks in the US, with the exception the the Peterbilt 320 in Mexico (it's design and low volume doesn't mesh well with the rest of the Peterbilt products on the Denton, Texas assembly line). So, with the exception of the 320, Paccar's Mexico plant produces for the Mexican market. Paccar and Navistar (I say this not being a Navistar fan in recent years) are US-owned companies, headquartered in the US. Their annual corporate profits go to support the US economy (which is struggling now, and probably will continue to do so thru 2013 and 2014). And one can't argue with Paccar's management, resulting in 73 consecutive years of profitability (I'm proud as an American that at least one US truckmaker still excels).

You mentioned your prediction of a Volvo cab coming to Mack. You'll soon see it. The new Volvo/Mack cab for North America will also be shared with Volvo and Renault heavy truck models in Europe and the global market. The North American variation of the new Volvo global cab will be narrower, for use in a conventional truck configuration. So in effect, the upcoming new cab terminates the last remnants of the Mack truck (optional legacy Mack transmissions and axles don't make it a Mack truck). With a Volvo cab, chassis, engines and transmissions (and frequently vendor axles), sadly, that's not a Mack truck.

Way back when, Paccar was also interested in purchasing Mack. At the time, that wasn't well received by Mack people such as myself. But seeing the way things have played out, one can't help but wonder if that would have been the better way to go. At least, Mack would still be an American company.

What Volvo has done, reduce an iconic American truckmaker to a mere shell of its former self, should be a crime.

[41180]

i dont see mack using a volvo cab any time soon . if you look at things now in the mack volvo world mack has the best products . we just took delivery of our new titan and let me say ive never seen a volvo or a peterbilt for that matter as well built as this truck is . it is a remarkable truck mr k

[kscarbel]

My friend, you will be seeing a new cab fairly soon. The current cab has been in production since 1988. It's time to move on, and Volvo knows it.

The US market Titan, loosely based on the Titan sold in Australia, is a fine truck, but not your bread-and-butter high volume model. The Volvo-based Macks account for that.

The Aussie Macks, in many ways, still feel like a Mack truck. For one thing, the Aussie market is very demanding in terms of customer expectations and operating conditions. Personally, I think the Aussie Titan is much better looking than the US Titan, and the Trident is one impressive truck all the way around.

[james j neiweem]

I agree the Aussie Titans and Tridents are sharp. To bad they don't bring the trident or Superliner over here.

[Bullheaded]

Just wondering....when is Mack's "Allison Exclusive" deal for auto's in the vocational models done? I thought it was this year or next?

Just wondering when we will be able to get the M-Drive in the Granite and Titan?

[Green Dash]

I went to our Pittsburgh terminal to swap out a retired Sterling for a new Pinnacle, equipped with an mp7-395 and Mdrive transmission to bring back to my terminal. I normally would have parked it when I got back to my terminal but since my truck was in for service I decided to stay in the Mack. The rest of the night had me running a 423 mile triangle including a round trip across the Allegheny's on the PA Turnpike with 27,000# on the way out and 33,000# coming home. While that's not super heavy by any means, it's typical of what I run nightly so I was able to make a fair comparison the other trucks I've driven on that route.

Having been turned off by my experience with the early UltraShifts for the reasons mention above, I was pleasantly surprised by the way this truck performed. It pulled even the long grades with minimal effort and and was very "comfortable" running in top gear at 1150 rpm as I nervously waited for a downshift and kept reaching for a stick that wasn't there. I only had to deal with a few traffic lights in downtown Pittsburgh but it seemed to handle repeated slowing and accelerating with no problem whereas the UltraShift would get "confused" in that situation. Even backing was nice and smooth.

[kscarbel]

_{I hear you. But again, your past experience was with the first generation UltraShift DM3 (which used a centrifugal type clutch that engaged via engine speed).}

_{The current UltraShift Plus is an entirely different animal. Eaton made a mistake by not giving the current product a new name, to clearly differentiate it from the earlier DM3. The UltraShift Plus compares head on with the Mack mDrive (rebadged Volvo I-Shift).}

_{And, unlike the single countershaft I-Shift (one reason it's not approved for vocational applications), Eaton utilizes the more durable twin-countershaft design (just as ZF does).}