volvo and mack : kind of the admirer owning the idol

[rick harper]

As a 2nd generation Mack Dealer I can understand all the comments about this subject. We have been here in Tulsa for 52 years and only have dealt in Mack products. If you want the Mack symbol to carrying on for years to come, go and support your local Mack dealer. Our history is great and should be told to anyone that will listen. We cant go back to the old ways but look to the future and carry the name with pride.

[kscarbel]

Rick, I very much understand where you are coming from. You speak from the heart with a passion for Mack that was bred from your family's long time connection to the former Mack Truck Company.

But the point is, there is no more Mack Trucks to be proud of. The company no longer exists. It was sold to Volvo in 2000, who wanted the brand name and market share. Having performed pathetically in the US market since 1974 (when they introduced the F86US), Volvo later decided on a strategy to buy out the American competition (White, GMC and finally Mack).

The Mack logo on what amounts to a North American market Volvo truck is NOT symbolic of the Mack Truck Company, nor it's legendary products that you and I were once associated with. The Mack Truck organization no longer exists. Mack is described by Volvo Group as a Volvo brand, and that's exactly what it is, under Volvo Trucks North America.

Today's truck is a Mack-branded Volvo, a very sad reality. I resent anyone calling that a Mack Truck in my presence. That would be an insult to all of us previously affiliated with the Mack Truck Company.

Why should Americans go support their Mack dealer in the sale of Mack-branded Volvo trucks? In other words, why should Americans support Volvo, whose North American profits leave our country to support the economy of Sweden? This is the painful reality of the situation.

And looking deeper, why is America unable to compete in our own domestic truck market? We are the greatest nation in the world, and yet we have allowed our trucking industry to be sold out to and controlled by the Europeans. If our industrial might and abilty for cutting edge innovation is now resigned to history, we should all take lessons in humility.

If any US truckmaker deserved to survive, and under US ownership, it was Mack Trucks, the only US truckmaker that was "part of the language". The only vertically integrated heavy truckmaker (from the 1950s on) in America (which inherently allowed Mack Trucks to offer, I feel, the best heavy truck in America owing to the company's integrated "balanced design" philosophy).

[MackMann85]

I get some of the points you are making but really struggle with some of them. I accepted that we just agree to disagree on just about everything, but in the spirit of giving different opinions, here are two in particular i have trouble with that you said in red.

In other words, why should Americans support Volvo, whose North American profits leave our country to support the economy of Sweden?

What about the thousands Americans that work at the engine and truck plants that get paid for their work and in turn take their paychecks and buy other american goods? Or the thousands of other jobs for suppliers that sell parts to Mack? And doesnt the money from a sold truck go to paying those very people and improving the facilities they work in among many other expenses here in the USA? For me i'd rather buy a truck BUILT in the USA from a foreign owned company than one built in MEXICO from a US owned company. I just see that as betrayal by US brands. If a Mack was built in Mexico or Sweden i would see your point, but it isnt, so i dont

Today's truck is a Mack-branded Volvo, a very sad reality. I resent anyone calling that a Mack Truck in my presence.

I get that some parts are shared, and I dont like it a hole lot either. But when i look at a new Granite going by I see a Mack only front axle, hood/bumper, cab and interior, heavier frames, mack rear axles riding on camelback suspension and oh yeah a T300 transmission. Seems to me I about named all the major things that make a truck so I dont really agree that it is only a rebranded Volvo. I've never been to the engine factory either but i'd wager alot of them working there are the same mack engineers that were designing engines when volvo bought them ten years ago. The Titan is totally unique and the cabover garbage trucks are about as Mack as they ever were with no volvo counterpart. So thats how I feel when I think about Mack even if others dont!

[kscarbel]

The salaries to Volvo employees (I can't rightfully say Mack employees) at Greensboro, Hagerstown and Macungie certainly support the local economies in their area. My point is, the business unit profits at Volvo Trucks North America go to Volvo Group in Sweden, supporting that country's economy rather than our own.

I get that some parts are shared, and I dont like it a hole lot either. But when i look at a new Granite going by I see a Mack only front axle, hood/bumper, cab and interior, heavier frames, mack rear axles riding on camelback suspension and a T300 transmission. Seems to me I about named all the major things that make a truck so I dont really agree that it is only a rebranded Volvo. I've never been to the engine factory either but i'd wager alot of them working there are the same mack engineers that were designing engines when volvo bought them ten years ago. The Titan is totally unique and the cabover garbage trucks are about as Mack as they ever were with no volvo counterpart. So thats how I feel when I think about Mack even if others dont!

You mentioned a Granite, a vocational model which has a greater chance of being built with Mack axles and transmissions (The I-Shift isn't approved yet for vocational trucks in the US market). Prior to the introduction of the Volvo I-Shift in the Mack-branded chassis, did you know the majority of Mack-branded trucks were built with Eaton transmissions rather than Mack transmissions? You're arguing for Volvo while they're actually shunning legacy Mack components in favor of the I-Shift and Eaton transmissions.

The typical Mack Pinnacle is not built with a Mack transmission or rear drive axles. Can a Volvo truck chassis with a Volvo D11/13/16 engine, Volvo I-Shift or Eaton transmission, Meritor drive axles, Mack front axle, and legacy Mack cab and hood that is produced by Volvo Trucks North America be considered a Mack Truck? No my friend, absolutely not.

In the days of Mack Trucks, the standard spec was a "pedigreed" drivetrain. In addition to a Mack-designed engine, the standard transmission was a triple-countershaft Mack "Maxitorque" transmission, and the drive axles were Mack dual-reduction bogies (the best transmissions and axles in the world). However Volvo chooses to promote Eaton (manual transmissions) and Meritor drive axles. It's not a Mack truck, but of course Volvo bought the Mack brand and can do as they like.

I'll bet that I like the Mack T300 triple-countershaft "Maxitorque" transmissions even more than you. But Volvo doesn't. That's one reason Volvo cancelled Hagerstown's plan to create an AMT version of the T300. In Volvo's "perfect world", every Mack-branded truck would have the Volvo I-Shift AMT. Never mind that a single-countershaft transmission will never be as durable as a triple-countershaft transmission.

I'm glad the Mack brand has a severe service tractor like the Titan, although I don't care for its pimp car trim. I much prefer the Australian Titan, and the Trident (One wonders why Volvo doesn't bring the Trident to the US market).

The Mack MR has soldiered on since its introduction in 1978. Under Volvo, rather than invest in a much needed all-new cab and chassis replacement for the MR, they dragged their feet and finally introduced the hideous looking Terrapro in 2007. Certainly this low-cost, modest refresh of a nearly 30 year old truck, notable only for its tacky new appearance, has done nothing to impress the refuse industry. The MR (Terrapro) is long on the tooth now in terms of technology - the refuse industry would welcome a game-changing new refuse chassis that would revolutionize the business in the way the MR did in 1978. However Volvo has no desire to invest in that direction. Expect a new model featuring a low-mounted Volvo global cab on the Volvo chassis in the future.

Historical note - The Mack MR was introduced in 1978, in response to Crane Carrier Corporation's "Centurion" launched in 1974. Mack President Henry J. Nave was so impressed with the industry-changing Centurion, the first vehicle of its kind designed specifically to meet the needs of the refuse industry, that he ordered Mack engineers to study and surpass it.

[MackMann85]

Theres alot of misinformation in your post, but continuing to go back and forth with you is pointless so I will just agree to disagree

[james j neiweem]

When the Signal Companies bought Mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong

When Renault bought Mack. Mack was dead-Wrong

When Volvo bought mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong again

Mack still lives on to fight another day.

[staxx]

This DOG will never be put down!!!!!!!!

[kscarbel]

When the Signal Companies bought Mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong

When Renault bought Mack. Mack was dead-Wrong

When Volvo bought mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong again

Mack still lives on to fight another day.

Jim, It's always good to hear your thoughts. I personally felt that the tie-up with The Signal Companies was a win-win situation, and so did Mr. Zenon C.R. Hansen. Like all Mack employees, I was initially quite concerned about Renault's plans for Mack, that is until we were able to see that Renault has no intention of taking the Mack out of Mack (as Volvo has), and also learned what a wonderful leader Elios Pascual was. While your thoughts are different, I genuinely enjoy hearing your views.

But your belief that "Mack still lives on" is, sadly, just no more that wishful thinking on your part. Mack Trucks is no more. It was sold to Volvo Group. Now, Mack is little more than a nameplate on a North American market Volvo heavy truck chassis. Perhaps, you'll realize this when the new cab arrives. As someone that was involved with Mack their entire life, I share the sadness of every career Mack employee. Frankly speaking, we used to work for the best US truckmaker and a global leader.

If you don't believe that Mack Trucks no longer exists, head up to 2100 Mack Boulevard in Allentown and see for yourself. But I can tell you ahead of time, the store is closed, However, you can find the nameplate at Volvo Trucks North America, the Swedish company that purchased Mack.

The nameplate is indeed still around (albeit on a Volvo chassis with Volvo global components), but the company is not.

I'm not going to support Volvo and the Swedes. I look out for the USA, the greatest country in the world.

What Volvo has done, reduce an American icon to a mere shell of its former self, should be a crime.

[rw613]

When the Signal Companies bought Mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong

When Renault bought Mack. Mack was dead-Wrong

When Volvo bought mack. Mack was dead.-Wrong again

Mack still lives on to fight another day.

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT TRUCKDRIVER

[41180]

so i will ask you one more time kscarbel. so a mack granite with a 20k lb mack front axle and 58k lb mack rears on camelback suspension with a mack transmission is not a mack truck ? this is what you saying. how about a chu with a 14k lb mack front axle and mack 44k rears on mack air ride and a 18 speed mack transmission is not a mack truck ? and of coarse a mack titan with a triple frame and 65k lb mack rears and a mack 18spd and 23k lb mack front axle is also not a mack. right ? mp series engines are good engines theyn are able to be serviced at mack dealers and service dealers. the m drive is being built right here in america as well as the mp series engines so what is swedish about this ?

[kscarbel]

so i will ask you one more time kscarbel. so a mack granite with a 20k lb mack front axle and 58k lb mack rears on camelback suspension with a mack transmission is not a mack truck ? this is what you saying. how about a chu with a 14k lb mack front axle and mack 44k rears on mack air ride and a 18 speed mack transmission is not a mack truck ? and of coarse a mack titan with a triple frame and 65k lb mack rears and a mack 18spd and 23k lb mack front axle is also not a mack. right ? mp series engines are good engines theyn are able to be serviced at mack dealers and service dealers. the m drive is being built right here in america as well as the mp series engines so what is swedish about this ?

There are two aspects here.

First, a truck produced by Volvo Trucks North America with a Mack nameplate, in my opinion, is certainly not a Mack truck.

Second, while you're talking heavy vocational specs, I'm talking about the entire production range as a whole.

Let's talk about your vocational examples. There's a Volvo chassis, with Volvo wiring, fuel tanks and other Volvo global components. Then there's the Volvo engine (D11, D13 or D16). Then we have a Mack or Eaton tranny with the Mack front and rear axles you mentioned. It's a mixed bag of components assembled for you by Volvo. No sir, that's not a Mack truck. Rather, that's a Volvo-produced chassis with a few legacy components they acquired from the Mack purchase.

("Mack air ride" is actually designed and produced by Hendrickson, a great American company)

Now let's discuss the higher volume on-highway line-haul tractors. Today's Pinnacle, by Volvo Trucks North America, typically does not have a Mack tranny or rear drive axles. We're talking about a Volvo truck chassis with Volvo wiring, fuel tanks and other Volvo global components, a Volvo D11 or D13 engine, Volvo I-Shift or Eaton transmission and Meritor drive axles. The only legacy Mack components are the front axle, and the cab and hood.

So to answer your question, the two Mack spec examples you provided are NOT Mack trucks. Mack Trucks Inc. no longer exists. Volvo Group, of Sweden, purchased Mack Trucks in 2000.

Your two examples are Mack-branded products from Volvo Trucks North America that currently have a Volvo content (by component value) of 50 to 80 percent. And when the US version of the new Volvo global cab arrives, that figure will rise to 70-100 percent.

My friend, your thought process is intriguing indeed. I regret your incorrect perception that a Volvo D11/D13/D16 engine or I-Shift transmission produced at a North American Volvo Powertrain facility, by virtue of its US manufacturing location, is no longer Swedish (I'm sure Volvo President Olof Persson would be surprised by your thought as well).

Irregardless of manufacturing location, the D11/D13/D16 engines and I-Shift transmissions (rebadged as mDrive) are products of Volvo Group. Perhaps you should take a trip to Gothenburg, Sweden and enlighten yourself.

I never said Volvo's engines were bad (although certainly not the best). Many truckmakers have produced solid engines over years. Personally, I always preferred Mack designed engines, an integral part of the "pedigreed" drivetrain. The unique and superior qualities of the Mack drivetrain made the company an American success story for 100 years. Now, it is utterly humiliating that Mack, the greatest name in trucks, has become a Swedish success story.

Sadly, Volvo immediately chose to terminate independent Mack engineering with the closure of Mack Truck's Engineering, Development and Test Center in Allentown, and take on all future Mack-branded truck development at Volvo's Greensboro R&D center. Yes, Volvo engineers designing Mack-branded trucks.

Because Volvo NEVER understood the meaning and value of Mack Trucks in America, Volvo had ZERO interest in allowing Mack Trucks to continue. In the truck industry, Volvo is the epitome of "divide and conquer". The end of Mack Trucks under Volvo ranks as one of the greatest business tragedies in American history.

In 2000, Mack had minor issues (At any point in time, what truck maker doesn't?). But Mack was still a solid company. In fact, Mack was arguably more solid than Navistar is today. And yet, Volvo immediately engaged their ignorant plan to shut down Mack Trucks and absorb the rest (principally the brand name) into Volvo Trucks North America. Along the way, Volvo had the audacity to state otherwise, but their onward actions were inconsistent with their lies. .

If you're pleased with the Mack-branded trucks produced by Volvo Trucks North America, my friend, that's all that matters. Send Volvo a letter expressing your appreciation.

Vad Volvo har gjort, minska Mack till ingenting, bör vara ett brott.

[fjh]

Well I predicted A multi fit Cab 5 years in! DIDN"T HAPPEN ! I Didn't like THE BIG V either , We still have our own cab ??? So I guess Its still a Mack till the cab changes! And they quit offering genuine old school components. When that happens then the thing is truely dead . Swen and Ollie will have had their way at that point! Until then its a Mack.

[mack4ever]

here in the netherlands whe ricived the message from our boss that our renault dealership goos toegether with the volvo dealership.

so renault and volvo in one building.

but it will be renault on the one site and volvo on the other site (he tels us)

let`s see what happens.

leon.

[EM6285]

Well my 2012 International Workstar 7400 states "Made in Mexico" ( I am from Puerto Rico )

Front axle has a big "Made in Mexico"

I do not care about any of their Maxxforce engines because I am suffering the failure of the Maxxforce Advanced EGR. My truck is at the dealer and I won't get it fixed until February 2013.

Our parent company bought brand new MACK trucks for the refuse industry, so far so good with the MACK MP-7 Engines.

[EM6285]

A true MACK enthusiast will always support the MACK TRUCKS brand. GO MACK !!!!

We got the MP-SERIES diesel engines and they are not 100 alike their VOLVO D-series counterparts. The MP-SERIES have some MACKNESS to their specific design, they even rotate opposite to the VOLVO D-SERIES, with MACK'S own programming and tunning. We are pleased at our partent company in the refuse industry with the performance of the brand new 2012 MACK Granite with MACK MP-7 engines, while my INTERCRAPTIONAL is at the dealer for service because of all the issues with the MAXXJUNK diesel engine it has, Simply put it this way, I want to set my NAVISTAR TRUCK on fire or blow it in pieces.

MACK gets much discredit because its relationship with VOLVO. MACK is doing well here in PUERTO RICO with record sales. PINNACE RAWHIDE EDITION is the top selling tractor truck surpassing the Kenworth W-900.

Lests be supportive to the MACK brand.

[kscarbel]

"Lests be supportive to the MACK brand" ? Sounds like the kind of statement you hear at a charity fundraiser.

My thought is, let's be supportive of American companies because their corporate profits support the U.S. economy.

Why should Americans support a Mack-branded Swedish product whose U.S. subsidiary (Volvo Trucks North America) sends its annual profits to Gothenburg, Sweden contributing to that foreign country's national economy?

Go Mack??? Mack's relationship with Volvo??? There is no "relationship". Mack Trucks no longer exists. Sweden's Volvo Group purchased Mack Trucks in 2000. Mack is a "Volvo brand", per Volvo Group.

Mack-branded MP7 and Renault-branded DXi11 engines are Volvo D11s.
Mack-branded MP8 and Renault-branded DXi13 engines are Volvo D13s.
Mack-branded MP10 engines are Volvo D16s.
All Volvo engines (per Volvo), albeit with different paint and software.

Volvo has terminated the Mack-designed pedigreed powertrain (i.e. American know-how) in favor of "superior" Swedish engineering (sarcasm on my part).

The Bulldog fell into the hands of a foreign rival during a moment of opportunity. I look forward to the day that Mack returns to American ownership and becomes a "Mack" truck once again.

[MackMann85]

Could you please elaborate on how the profits of a company like Navistar help the american economy more than Volvos profits as they pertain to the International and Mack brands? I may be looking at it wrong, so thats why i'm asking. As i see it, you sell more International trucks, profit more, and invest/hire in the people and facilities that support those trucks in the USA (or mexico). And along the same lines, you sell more Macks, you profit more, and invest/hire with said profits into the same USA people and facilities that support those trucks in the USA. Which contributes to the American economy in either case. So to me, at least in this example, a US owned company and foreign owned company arent very different in this area. Am i off base here? Does where the bank holding the money is located really matter here if it gets spent in America?

[kscarbel]

The salaries of employees at any truck plant in the US indeed benefit the local economies.

Navistar and Paccar pay corporate level taxes to the United States because they are incorporated in the United States (They are American companies).

Volvo is incorporated in Sweden and pays Swedish corporate income taxes (note Volvo Group's Annual Report).

Net profits from Volvo Group's US business units, including Volvo Trucks North America, flow to the company's corporate home in Sweden.

Interestingly, Volvo Group is in hot water this year, accused of creating a “new ingenious tax system” to “avoid corporate income tax in Sweden”.

In the perfect "global economy", Swedish and German companies wouldn't have any bias towards Sweden and Germany. But naturally given the human thought process, national and economic patriotism, that day won't come soon. Just as we are proud Americans biased towards the success of our country and American companies, they are as well. When it matters, the Swedes look out for Sweden and the Germans the same.

Within the "global economy", foreign players are waging a global economic war against us. In the US truck market, we are losing, with only two American truckmakers remaining. Think about that.

How can a small country like Sweden (roughly the size of California) have two globally successfully truckmakers (Volvo and Scania), while the greatest country in the world has seen its truck industry over the last three decades reduced from eight players to just two?

Are the Europeans now better at business than we are in our own country?

I say with pride that we remain the greatest nation in the world. And yet, we have allowed our trucking industry to be sold out to and controlled by the Europeans. Has humility replaced national pride?

[farmer52]

kscarbel:

I will agree with you on several points (especially concerning foreign ownership). I hope you are driving a personal vehicle made in America by an American company (GM or Ford). All the rest are owned by a foreign company (Chrysler, etc.). I own Jeep personal vehicles but I did not have a say in the change of ownership of Chrysler. I also question the purchase of a new GM (Government Motors) vehicle.

I have several friends who work at Mack. The bottom line is...if Volvo (or some other company) did not buy (or invest in) Mack, Mack did not have the resources to develop a new engine to meet increasingly strict EPA emissions regs. Hence Mack would have closed the doors or offered a truck with another brand of engine. Remember the ASET engine starting in 2002 and its performance/reliability. Caterpillar was interested in Mack in the mid 80s but did not pursue because they did not want to market an on-highway vehicle. Fast forward to 2010 - Cat and Neverstar.

I don't agree with everything Volvo has done with Mack but we have to move on. I own a Mack truck as a hobby so my concern is the supply of parts to maintain my vehicle. Foreign ownship is something that we will have to live with, like it or not. Too many Americans and American companies are only concerned about the $$$$$$$. A majority of the blame I put on Wall Street and the investment community.

I will get off my soap box!

[james j neiweem]

The demise of the US industrial base is all by design beind the scenes. The new world order boys had to weaken the US so that we can fit into their global puzzle. The tri lateral

commission was the means to bring this about. One of their goals was to weaken the US and to strengthen Europeon Industrial giants and the Japaneese Korean area.

[EM6285]

Here at our MACK TRUCKS dealer customers spec their MACK PINNACLE tractors with Mack Pedigree components like Mack Transmissions and rears (axles and carriers ) Check out this GOLDEN DOG MACK PINNACLE built and spec'd ordered by a customer of our local MACK TRUCKS DEALER. And it is not an M-Drive automated manual, it is a MACK MAXITORQUE unit !!!!!! MACK potential customers have to spec their trucks with less vendor components and more MACK components. We like the MAXITORQUE TRANSMISSIONS and MACK axles and carriers. At least our dealer iis very supportive when asking for a GOLDEN DOG PEDIGREE MACK TRUCK.

[EM6285]

GOLDEN DOG MACK PINNACLE. MACK ENGINE. MACK TRANSMISSION MACK REARS, AXLES, CARRIERS.

[EM6285]

MACK PINNACLE RAWHIDE EDITION. GOLDEN DOG.

[EM6285]

MACK PINNACLE. Golden Dog.

[EM6285]