volvo and mack : kind of the admirer owning the idol

[kscarbel]

I was surprised to hear that so I called Truck Enterprises in Harrisonburg. They didn't know they were giving any customers the perception that they should "stay away". Truck Enterprises are good people. So is Cooper Kenworth.

Harrisonburg of course is home to Truck & Equipment, a long-time Mack distributor. Bob Plecker was great to work with. Is his North & South Lines still running?

The MX in Europe is selling well. It's rated up to 510hp there (485hp in the US). As its use ramps up in the US market, I think you'll see its a good engine.

[41180]

ill put a mp10 or mp8 up against that mx anytime .

[41180]

why do you hate volvo ?

[Frmconcrete09]

wow, interesting info... KScarbel ... Id like to know just as everyone else , who do you work for and/or what is your name

[kscarbel]

I'm not making a comparison between the MX range and any other engine. I'm simply saying it's a solid modern engine that has been proven in markets around the world.

However if you want to compare the 12.9L MX to the 12.8L MP8 (the rebadged Volvo D13), you'll find them quite comparable in performance.

Why do I have such distaste for Volvo? Because the Swedes have taken a once great American icon and reduced it to a mere shell of its former self.

Volvo only wanted the Mack nameplate. That became painfully obvious when Volvo closed Mack's world headquarters and R&D center and transferred those functions to Volvo HQ in Greensboro, North Carolina. And, Mack Truck's Hagerstown plant became a "Volvo Powertrain" facility.

To understand Volvo, it helps to have an understanding of the global truck industry. Volvo is battling Mercedes-Benz (Daimler), MAN and Scania. It's a competition amongst the European truckmakers. The US truck market is involved because that added sales volume decides the outcome of the battle.

Volvo wanted the Mack, White and GMC nameplates to grow stronger in their battle with the other European truckmakers. Freightliner likewise purchased Freightliner, Sterling and Western Star for the same reason.

And a recent development, Volkswagen has expressed interest in purchasing Navistar. Many Americans aren't aware that VW has controlling ownership of MAN and Scania. While MAN and Scania are extremely good, they have no North American presence. Buying Navistar would allow VW to battle Volvo and Daimler in the North American market. For the first time, the 3 major European players would be fighting over and dominating the US market. And I can tell you, it will be ruthless. But the saddest result of all would be that America would be down to just one truckmaker - Paccar.

Volvo could care less about what Mack Trucks has always stood for. Volvo has been focused from day one on creating the North American Volvo truck with a Mack nameplate. And with the arrival of the new cab, they will have accomplished that.

If you like Volvo trucks, I think that's great. By all means, go buy one (or more). But what Volvo has done, shut down the greatest name in the American truck industry and moved to producing what amounts to Volvo trucks with Mack nameplates, ought to be a crime.

In our great country, in which trucking figures so prominently in our history, it is unbelievable that all the trucks on the roads of America today, with the exception of Paccar and Navistar, are produced by the Germans and Swedes. It is humiliating that America no longer has the ability to compete and lead in our own domestic truck market.

If you want to buy a Volvo with a Mack nameplate, and you realize that's what you are doing, please by all means go ahead. But of course, it's just that - a Volvo with a Mack nameplate. It is not a Mack Truck. Thanks to Volvo, that legendary American truck company that once set the benchmarks for others to follow is just a memory.

[mackdaddy]

I have read your past posts and can agree with you on many of the points. But what did we really expect when Mack was sold to Volvo? Has Volvo taken some of what Mack had to offer in engineering and people and incorporated that into the product lines? I was impressed with the investement that Volvo put into the Mack customer center and I believe Volvo management does appreciate the history of the Mack company and means to preserve it. Our country has changed alot over the years in how we view foreign investment. There was a time Chrysler was wanting to buy Mack and that got shutdown by the FTC and that would never be an issue today. As for Zenon Hansen there is no doubt he was a great leader and visionary. But the maxidyne concept was underway when he arrived and with his leadership it went into production. Zenon was also a great salesman and that goes along way in promoting a product and especially a product that performed as the Mack line did at that time. But what has deregulation done to the manufacturer's? For Mack it had to have an effect as many of the concentrated unionized truck lines were on the east coast. These were second and third generation ran companies that grew up with the bulldog and had loyalty. The improvement of the components from all of the vendors has certainly contributed to a more homogenized product out there and it is now more sales and dealer involvement that makes a difference. You can read Montville's book Mack and then take it from that time foward and see that Mack was always on a roller coaster ride financially. Big investments led to a new product that later aged and profits would fall until they ramped up again and so on. That is why Signal invested in Mack and once they saw the end of the line they bailed. I recently purchased a new Mack and would do so again as it has treated us well, the dealer is solid, and it performs. I still see alot of "real" trucks such as dumps, logging, refuse, etc that run Mack rears and the camelback suspension with a bronze bushing. It is still a valid suspension for the right reasons.

[convoyduel]

Would have to agree with Mackdaddy. The 2011 thru 2013 Mack products are the best vehicles they have offered in years, maybe decades. Powerful, quiet, smooth, ergonomic, etc. I'll be very skeptical of a new family cab concept if it comes about. The CH series cab has refined into a very durable product for the daycab market. If the family cab rumors are true, vulva will be hard pressed to beat it.

[rw613]

I was surprised to hear that so I called Truck Enterprises in Harrisonburg. They didn't know they were giving any customers the perception that they should "stay away". Truck Enterprises are good people. So is Cooper Kenworth.

Harrisonburg of course is home to Truck & Equipment, a long-time Mack distributor. Bob Plecker was great to work with. Is his North & South lines still running?

The MX in Europe is selling well. It's rated up to 510hp there (485hp in the US). As its use ramps up in the US market, I think you'll see its a good engine.

I was surprised to hear that so I called Truck Enterprises in Harrisonburg. They didn't know they were giving any customers the perception that they should "stay away". Truck Enterprises are good people. So is Cooper Kenworth.

Harrisonburg of course is home to Truck & Equipment, a long-time Mack distributor. Bob Plecker was great to work with. Is his North & South lines still running?

The MX in Europe is selling well. It's rated up to 510hp there (485hp in the US). As its use ramps up in the US market, I think you'll see its a good engine.

i just thought you were full of shit before but now i know

[rw613]

Would have to agree with Mackdaddy. The 2011 thru 2013 Mack products are the best vehicles they have offered in years, maybe decades. Powerful, quiet, smooth, ergonomic, etc. I'll be very skeptical of a new family cab concept if it comes about. The CH series cab has refined into a very durable product for the daycab market. If the family cab rumors are true, vulva will be hard pressed to beat it.

Would have to agree with Mackdaddy. The 2011 thru 2013 Mack products are the best vehicles they have offered in years, maybe decades. Powerful, quiet, smooth, ergonomic, etc. I'll be very skeptical of a new family cab concept if it comes about. The CH series cab has refined into a very durable product for the daycab market. If the family cab rumors are true, vulva will be hard pressed to beat it.

i agree 100%

[rick harper]

As a second generation Mack Dealer I'm very proud of our heritage. Yes Mack has had their problems just like all truck manufacturers have had in past and will in the future. This market is a world market today. With the EPA and all the government regulations it would be hard to stand alone with all the engineering cost. Paccar has been profitable, but they have never step out and tried to engineer and build their own powertrain. Engineering an EPA engine is a hell'va lot harder then sitting around grooming cabs and sleepers.

[rw613]

As a second generation Mack Dealer I'm very proud of our heritage. Yes Mack has had their problems just like all truck manufacturers have had in past and will in the future. This market is a world market today. With the EPA and all the government regulations it would be hard to stand alone with all the engineering cost. Paccar has been profitable, but they have never step out and tried to engineer and build their own powertrain. Engineering an EPA engine is a hell'va lot harder then sitting around grooming cabs and sleepers.

As a second generation Mack Dealer I'm very proud of our heritage. Yes Mack has had their problems just like all truck manufacturers have had in past and will in the future. This market is a world market today. With the EPA and all the government regulations it would be hard to stand alone with all the engineering cost. Paccar has been profitable, but they have never step out and tried to engineer and build their own powertrain. Engineering an EPA engine is a hell'va lot harder then sitting around grooming cabs and sleepers.

very very well said and very true if it wasnt for cat and cummings there wouldnt be a paccar

[41180]

i agree the mack line is the best its been since the late 90s .

[kscarbel]

I have read your past posts and can agree with you on many of the points. But what did we really expect when Mack was sold to Volvo? Has Volvo taken some of what Mack had to offer in engineering and people and incorporated that into the product lines? I was impressed with the investement that Volvo put into the Mack customer center and I believe Volvo management does appreciate the history of the Mack company and means to preserve it. Our country has changed alot over the years in how we view foreign investment. There was a time Chrysler was wanting to buy Mack and that got shutdown by the FTC and that would never be an issue today. As for Zenon Hansen there is no doubt he was a great leader and visionary. But the maxidyne concept was underway when he arrived and with his leadership it went into production. Zenon was also a great salesman and that goes along way in promoting a product and especially a product that performed as the Mack line did at that time. But what has deregulation done to the manufacturer's? For Mack it had to have an effect as many of the concentrated unionized truck lines were on the east coast. These were second and third generation ran companies that grew up with the bulldog and had loyalty. The improvement of the components from all of the vendors has certainly contributed to a more homogenized product out there and it is now more sales and dealer involvement that makes a difference. You can read Montville's book Mack and then take it from that time foward and see that Mack was always on a roller coaster ride financially. Big investments led to a new product that later aged and profits would fall until they ramped up again and so on. That is why Signal invested in Mack and once they saw the end of the line they bailed. I recently purchased a new Mack and would do so again as it has treated us well, the dealer is solid, and it performs. I still see alot of "real" trucks such as dumps, logging, refuse, etc that run Mack rears and the camelback suspension with a bronze bushing. It is still a valid suspension for the right reasons.

It's a pleasure to hear your thoughts. You are absolutely right, Zenon C.R. Hanson was a leader, a visionary and an amazing salesman. And Zenon knew how to seize the moment with Walter May and Win Pellizzoni putting the finishing touches on the Maxidyne.

(The 1969 Bulldog Airlines crash was a tragic loss of Mack talent. One can only wonder how it affected the future. From that point on, Mack never allowed a large group of engineers and/or executives to take the same aircraft)

Yes, there were times when other companies considered buying Mack Trucks (eg. Chrysler, Paccar), and Mack at its height bought out other companies as well to support the company's growth. The rollercoaster effect, the high and low business cycles, are the nature of the market.

We all know here that Mack Trucks was no ordinary company. If Mack was to be sold, I would have liked the new owner to invest in Mack and restore the company back to greatness. Mack Trucks, incomparable among US truckmakers, was worth saving. Arguably, Renault did just that.

However, with my experience at Volvo and Scania, I knew from the start that Volvo was going to shut down Mack as a company and merge it into the Volvo world. Personally, I have a very serious problem with that. I didn't lose sleep when GMC and White disappeared.

But now, the Mack Truck company, arguably the most significant truckmaker in US history, no longer exists. It's merely a group of offices within Volvo's headquarters in Greensboro, North Carolina. When you contact your Mack service or parts representative, his e-mail address is JohnDoe@volvo.com. And please, ask your Mack service or parts representative what happens at regional meetings when they stand up and tell the Swedes that their changes are not in the best interests of Mack Trucks, the distributors and the customers. Please, ask them. The Volvo people arrogantly like to do all the talking, and are very poor listeners (How could a Mack veteran possibly know more than the Swedes?).

The trucks produced now with the Mack nameplate incorporate North American market Volvo chassis, engines and transmissions (Volvo I-Shift). If a person likes Volvo components, that's fine with me. Volvo builds a reasonable truck. By all means, go to the Volvo truck distributor and place an order.

You mention Mack rears. Never been anything better. But sadly, a high percentage of Mack trucks today are built with vendor rears (Volvo has a biased relationship with Meritor).

When you purchase a Mack truck, you expect a "Mack truck", built with Mack-designed pedigreed components.

If Volvo actually understood the significance of Mack Trucks, they would have demonstrated that by revitalizing the company rather than taking it apart. They intentionally chose the latter.

Under Renault, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Mr. Elios Pascual in the way he entered the picture and led Mack. He had the Hansen spirit. But his two French successors were short-timers who didn't have the understanding and enthusiasm for Mack as Pascual did. Mack suffered. Volvo had an opportunity to rebuild Mack and benefit from the massive capability of a healthy Mack Truck company. But, Volvo preferred to immediately start taking the company apart and make it a nameplate on what are for the most part Volvo global components (How do you like those meaningless Volvo "global" part numbers?).

The soul of Mack Trucks is gone. Volvo has shut down "the greatest name in trucks".

So, if you want to buy a Mack branded heavy truck with a Volvo D13 engine, Volvo I-Shift tranny, Volvo chassis (the Volvo design shared with New River Valley) and Meritor rears, by all means go ahead. But for the record, that's not a Mack truck.

We absolutely do live in a global economy. No argument. But as Americans, would we be happy if Ford, GM and Chrysler, our last surviving carmakers, were all sold to European and/or Asian carmakers?

I am proud that our great country has for over 100 years led the world in innovation. Just over 60 years ago, at the end of WW2, Europe and Japan were in rubbles and we were the industrial might of the world.

If the United States, the greatest country in the world, no longer has the management and engineering expertise to have its own world class truckmakers, then we all need to do some very serious reflecting.

Speaking for myself, I don't want Europe profiting from our country's trucking industry. A country as great as ours should be able to lead in the truck industry, as we had for so many decades before. We are Americans.

[MackMann85]

kscarbel = broken record spinning around, and around, and around, and around.....

[41180]

kscarbel. have you seen the new mack rears . top load mack rears with double lock option . the gold bulldog is alive and well. go on truck paper.com an look at the macks alot of them have mack rears. but you wont listen . you just keep saying the same story over and over and over and over and over. we get it . volvo owns mack. they share parts and chassis . big deal. we live in a world economy. the m drive/i shift is a great transmission. i dont see paccar or navistar making a transmission yet. mack still has a identity. i remember as a kid i was a fan of gmc generals. volvo bought them and immediately ended the general. volvo bought autocar and white and immediately turned them into volvos . mack is a differant animal. volvo has owned mack for 12 years and mack still has there own cabs . transmissions rears and engine family with different hp and torque characteristics than volvo. mack has the titan heavy haul truck. look just 5 yrs ago mack had the outdated aset engines that were gutless and unreliable. and if you needed a big bore engine you had to buy the cummins powerd cl733 . how can you say that mack is dead? the bullldog is barking loud and proud again as far as im concerned

[james j neiweem]

Mack enthusists are Mack enthusiasts down to their core. Some may own paccars or other breeds but they rarely are enthusiasts of these other breeds. Granted vovo and diamler

are europeon companies but they are owned by stockholders of many different countries including the USA. Same goes for navistar and paccar they are owned by stockholders many of them Europeon. The global economy being what it is can change overnight. Ten years from now Deere or Cat may own Volvo and Mack and Seimans may own Paccar. Chill out Mack fans the plug on Mack hasn't been pulled yet. Not in over 100 years as a matter of a fact.

[kscarbel]

Mack enthusists are Mack enthusiasts down to their core. Some may own paccars or other breeds but they rarely are enthusiasts of these other breeds. Granted vovo and diamler

are europeon companies but they are owned by stockholders of many different countries including the USA. Same goes for navistar and paccar they are owned by stockholders many of them Europeon. The global economy being what it is can change overnight. Ten years from now Deere or Cat may own Volvo and Mack and Seimans may own Paccar. Chill out Mack fans the plug on Mack hasn't been pulled yet. Not in over 100 years as a matter of a fact.

Mr. Neiweem, I couldn’t agree more. Mack customers were indeed dedicated down to their core. No other truckmaker ever had a customer base as loyal as Mack Trucks.

The phrase “Built Like a Mack Truck” became a part of the American language without any advertising, symbolizing the strength, ruggedness and reliability of cutting edge Mack engineering, a company hallmark from the time the Mack AC was developed under legendary Mack chief engineer (and vice president) Alfred Masury.

Mack’s integrated “balanced design” drivetrain philosophy played a key role in the company’s success. Each component was perfectly matched, allowing it to compliment the characteristics of the other components for maximum horsepower utilization, load-carrying capabilities and longevity. With total control over design and production, Mack drivetrains provided customers with the ultimate in performance for reduced operating costs. Mack efficiency translated into greater fuel economy, driver productivity and resale value complimented by reduced component wear, maintenance and downtime.

But tragically, the plug was indeed pulled on Mack, when Renault sold its RVI truck unit (which included Mack) to Volvo in 2000. I always preferred that Mack remain independent, or at least U.S. owned. I will say that Renault to a significant extent allowed Mack to operate independently. But Volvo from day one demonstrated that they had no such intentions. They closed Winnsboro and relocated on-highway production to Volvo's New River Valley plant, and began building Macks on Volvo chassis.

Expressing their intentions quite clearly, Volvo symbolically closed Mack headquarters in Allentown and moved those functions to Volvo headquarters in Greensboro, North Carolina. And, Volvo closed the Mack Engineering, Development and Test Center, passing on its duties to the inferior Volvo R&D facility in North Carolina (some 400 miles away from Macungie).

I see little chance of Deere or Cat owning Volvo Group in 10 years (or Siemens acquiring Paccar). But America indeed has an extremely dire situation. "Global economy" aside, a country with a healthy economy able to tolerate cyclical dips requires a diverse industrial base. We've all but lost it. Twenty-five plus years ago, our great country was the world leader in nearly every industry. Today, we only have two notable industries, aircraft (Boeing) and automobiles. If we don't quickly "reset" the direction of U.S. industry, I shudder to think about the state of the U.S. economy in another 25 years.

[kscarbel]

One reason for the downfall of Mack Trucks was a traitor named Marc Gustafson. His father, a dedicated Mack man, had established several dealers in Florida. His father's credentials allowed him the chance in 1992 to join Mack Trucks in Allentown, fast tracked to vice president of sales and marketing. But the son, unlike his father, had no integrity or loyalty for Mack. During his four short years at Mack, he was plotting with the ruthless Swedes at Volvo to conspire against Mack.

Gustafson abruptly left Mack in 1996 to become CEO of Volvo Trucks of North America. He betrayed Mack and used his privileged insider knowledge against Mack Trucks to help orchestrate Volvo’s takeover. Unlike the thousands of career Mack veterans across America, Gustafson only cared about his own personal advancement. He was no team player.

Note the time period, 1996. This is when Mack lost momentum and direction. At Volvo, Gustafson convinced Volvo Group that with his insider knowledge, he could deliver Mack Trucks into Volvo’s hands.

Renault-appointed Mack President Pierre Jocou responded quickly and took a hard stand against Gustafson’s defection (see below). But Volvo then used its relationship with Renault (the result of their merger negotiations) to ease the legal battle against Gustafson. Volvo succeeded in replacing the pro-Mack Mack President Pierre Jocou with the pro-Volvo takeover Mack President Michel Gigou.

This is why Pierre Jocou's tenure as Mack president, which began in March 1995, ended prematurely in November 1996. From December 1996 thru July 2001, Gigou was merely minding store while the Volvo takeover of “the greatest name in trucks” was being negotiated behind closed European doors.

Ironically, after Gustafson used his 4 years at Mack to stab the company in the back, he only lasted 4 years as CEO at Volvo Trucks of North America. And then just one year as head of American LaFrance under Freightliner (talk about a big step down). It would seem his inability to be a long-term team player caught up with him. If he’d been a 100% committed Mack man in the same way as Zenon C.R. Hansen, Mack Trucks might very well today still be an independently operating truckmaker under Renault (who from 1983 had been a very reasonable partner).

Mack Trucks Sues Former Executive, Says Marc Gustafson Took Company Secrets With Him To His New Job.

October 01, 1996 | by ELLIOT GROSSMAN, The Morning Call

Mack Trucks Inc. has sued the new president of rival truck manufacturer, Volvo GM Heavy Truck Corp., accusing him of taking company secrets when he left Mack two weeks ago.

And Mack has won at least a partial victory in Round 1 of the legal battle involving Marc Gustafson, a former Mack executive vice president.

Chief Judge Edward Cahn of the U.S. District Court in Allentown issued a temporary restraining order Friday, forbidding Gustafson from participating in any Volvo sales and marketing activities or from disclosing any Mack sales and marketing information at Volvo.

But Mack wanted Gustafson blocked from working for Volvo -- or any Mack competitors -- for at least a year. Mack also asked for damages to be awarded at a trial.

At a hearing next Tuesday, Cahn will more deeply delve into the case so he can issue a permanent order.

Gustafson served as Mack's executive vice president for sales and marketing for four years until he resigned Sept. 19, effective that day. He then went to work at Volvo GM Heavy Truck headquarters in Greensboro, N.C.

Mack sued him last week in Lehigh County Court. But he asked that the case be heard in federal court, and Mack did not object.

Mack claims that Gustafson is violating his contract with Mack. In the contract, according to Mack, Gustafson promised to not disclose any confidential Mack information outside Mack.

"It would be impossible for him to ignore his knowledge of Mack's business plans as he considers Volvo's business plans and its competitive strategies," according to Mack's lawsuit.

For example, the suit claims, Gustafson has knowledge of Mack secrets about its costs and pricing structures. This information, which Mack uses when bidding on large orders of trucks, is known only to select individuals at Mack.

Since Mack and Volvo often compete for such orders, Volvo will have an unfair advantage, according to Mack.

Also, Gustafson's knowledge about products being developed by Mack will enable Volvo to take steps to respond to Mack's new products before the products are announced publicly, Mack claims.

Before filing the suit, Mack President Pierre Jocou sent a letter to Volvo's chairman, asking him to not employ Gustafson, at least until the two sides resolve Mack's concerns.

[kscarbel]

kscarbel. have you seen the new mack rears? top load mack rears with double lock option. the gold bulldog is alive and well. go on truck paper.com an look at the macks alot of them have mack rears. but you wont listen. you just keep saying the same story over and over and over and over and over. we get it . volvo owns mack. they share parts and chassis . big deal. we live in a world economy. the m drive/i shift is a great transmission. i dont see paccar or navistar making a transmission yet. mack still has a identity. i remember as a kid i was a fan of gmc generals. volvo bought them and immediately ended the general. volvo bought autocar and white and immediately turned them into volvos . mack is a differant animal. volvo has owned mack for 12 years and mack still has there own cabs . transmissions rears and engine family with different hp and torque characteristics than volvo. mack has the titan heavy haul truck. look just 5 yrs ago mack had the outdated aset engines that were gutless and unreliable. and if you needed a big bore engine you had to buy the cummins powerd cl733 . how can you say that mack is dead? the bullldog is barking loud and proud again as far as im concerned

I appreciate your thoughts. I'm sorry if you perceive that I am repeating myself. But you can always exercise your freedom to skip over my posts.

I was thrilled to see the Mack top-mounted dual reduction carrier evolve with the C150/151 series. But in addition to Mack’s patented automatic power divider (inter-axle lock), please realize that driver-controlled inter-axle and inter-wheel (differential) locks were always Mack factory options. That's not new.

However, since Volvo only promotes the Mack carrier in vocational trucks, it will continue to see low sales volume. When Mack Trucks was in business, 99 percent of on-highway Mack chassis were built with Mack carriers. Their strength and durability were a key customer attraction. All the successful on-highway Mack fleets (e.g. Overnite) had pedigreed drivetrains.

But Volvo decided not to promote the Mack carrier across the board, in both the on-highway and vocational segments.

Volvo still offers the Mack triple-countershaft Maxitorque transmissions (the best transmission in the world). However, Volvo once again doesn't promote it so production is limited. You'll typically see an Eaton.

In 1985, for example, it was rare to see a vendor transmission in a Mack. In any model, on-highway or vocational, Mack maxitorque transmissions were the standard spec. Simply speaking, Mack promoted the "Mack" truck, the Mack pedigreed drivetrain because it was superior.

My friend, to put a gold bulldog on a Mack-branded truck with a Volvo D11, D13 or D16 engine should be a crime. Talk about misleading the customer.

The ASET engines were bad. Since that happened under Volvo, you should ask them why. You also complained about the lack of high horsepower Mack engines. While you have Volvo on the line, ask them why they snubbed Mack engineering and terminated production of the E-9 V-8 engine rather than allow Mack engineering to upgrade it to meet evolving emissions requirements or design a big-block pedigreed Mack 6-cylinder engine.

I respect your personal opinion that it is "no big deal" for Mack-branded trucks to use Volvo chassis modules, engines, transmissions and other components. Perhaps, you purchase a Chevrolet or GMC truck, depending on which dealer has the lower price at the moment. Hey, it's the same truck. No big deal, right?

But I personally have a different thought, that today's Mack-branded truck with Volvo components is not a Mack Truck. No veteran Mack employee would disagree. Despite the carry-over (and soon to be replaced) cab and hood, it’s mostly Volvo (Volvo chassis, engine, transmission, ect.).

A Volvo engine, with software programming for Mack-branded Volvo trucks, is still a Volvo engine.

I'm glad Mack has the Titan tractor (although it's not selling). Personally I preferred the RD-800 for severe service on-off road and the heavy-duty RW-700 series Super-Liner for on-highway heavy hauling (The CL-700 series wasn't attractive). I would like to have seen Mack bring the Australian market Titan (and Trident) to the US. I don't care for the pimp car trim style of the US market Titan.

[jzack]

We've completely lost it. Twenty-five plus years ago, our great country was the world leader in nearly every industry. Today, we only have two notable industries, aircraft (Boeing) and automobiles. If we don't quickly "reset" the direction of U.S. industry, I shudder to think about the state of the U.S. economy in another 25 years.

America losing its manufacturing base is mostly myth. America still builds more things by GDP than Germany, Japan, and yes even China. Many of the job losses people hear about in manufacturing are do to automation and other efficiencies of a post-industrial economy. Our industial base is still the envy of the world, thats why all the major global players have to come here to compete in the global economy that AMERICA MADE.

[41180]

i believe the pre volvo mack was the one that discontinued the v8. 1999 was the last year of production, renault failed to modernize the v8 to a electroncally controled fuel system and a better engine brake. also renault mack was the one that discontinued the rw and replaced it with the CL, the cl was a rugged and dependable truck we have 4 of them but they were bland . they look identicle to the set back ch series which were mostly light duty fleet trucks mostly. you have to be a mack fan to know the differance of a CL and the ch set back. so in my opinion mack made alot of mistakes pre volvo which led them to loose market share. the titan is over priced . most consumers dont care if mack and volvo share chassis and engines. they want a reliable and cost competive truck.

[kscarbel]

i believe the pre volvo mack was the one that discontinued the v8. 1999 was the last year of production, renault failed to modernize the v8 to a electroncally controled fuel system and a better engine brake. also renault mack was the one that discontinued the rw and replaced it with the CL, the cl was a rugged and dependable truck we have 4 of them but they were bland . they look identicle to the set back ch series which were mostly light duty fleet trucks mostly. you have to be a mack fan to know the differance of a CL and the ch set back. so in my opinion mack made alot of mistakes pre volvo which led them to loose market share. the titan is over priced . most consumers dont care if mack and volvo share chassis and engines. they want a reliable and cost competive truck.

Hagerstown ended production of the E9 V-8 in 2003. Volvo took over Mack in 2000.

You're right, the CL was introduced prior to Volvo in 1992, to replace the RW-700. I'm just saying that, personally, I preferred the appearance and capabilities of the RD-800 and RW-700 (depending on application) to the CL. The CL did the job, but the bulbous nose was bland (like you said). While these three models were lower volume models for specialized applications, I never had a price complaint - just very pleased customers.

A company is only as good as its leaders. Look at the mess that Navistar is in now. Ustian arrogantly refused to listen to his engineers about EGR. Now, finally, he's gone. Navistar just borrowed a billion dollars, but at their present cash burn, not to mention the additional expenses inherent to getting them back on track, I expect that billion to be expended within 12 months. Then what? Merge with a relatively weak Oshkosh (military vehicle sales are in a cyclical downturn and both McNeilus and JLG are not money makers), or sell out to Volkswagen?

It's very difficult, unfortunately, to find high capability leaders back-to-back. Please read my post about Marc Gustafson. Tragically, he was VP of sales and marketing from 1992 to 1996 - he was dictating the future product plan. But he didn't know as much as he thought he did......and made some bad choices.

Mack President Ralph Reins (1989-1990) was another typical modern young CEO that came in, with no trucking experience, and departed abruptly (with a golden parachute), but not before leaving a mess for career Mack employees to clean up.

In any event, you are right that Mack made mistakes in the 1990s. Of course it is easy to look back, but there were significant issues during the 1990s including Gustafson and the Volvo takeover that seriously derailed Mack from a better path.

Mack was an altogether different and unique truckmaker. Mack was the only vertically integrated U.S. heavy truckmaker. There were two kinds of truck customers, the ones who accepted the "assembled truck", and the ones that believed they kept more money in their pocket by running Macks with the company's proprietary (and darn near indestructible) drivetrains. Companies like Overnite and BFI chose Mack trucks for the reason that Mack trucks allowed them the highest possible earnings.

You feel that most truck customers don't care if Volvo's Mack-branded trucks use Volvo chassis and drivetrain components. I respect your opinion. And if it were any other American truck, you might get me to agree.

However, I feel Mack's traditional customer base does care very much about this point. The thought process of Mack Trucks and Mack customers was always quite different from that of the assembled truckmakers and their customers. Mack engineering and the company's superior pedigreed drivetrain sold the truck. Mack's competitors, candidly speaking, all at one time or another admitted their envy. But now, ironically, the Mack-branded vehicle has become an assembled truck, using outside components. Volvo closed the Mack Engineering, Development and Test Center, in favor of transitioning to Volvo global market components. Volvo engineers now design the Mack-branded trucks for North America. This is an insult to everything that the Mack name stands for in our great country, and to every individual who dedicated their life to Mack Trucks. What Volvo has done, reduce a global icon to a mere shell of its former self, should be a crime.

Customers have always wanted reliable and cost competitive trucks. Nothing new there. And Mack trucks always represented the best value combined with unrivaled durability. Mack did not offer the lowest initial purchase price, but factoring in life cycle costs, the Mack truck ultimately offered the lowest cost of operation.

As they say, Mack means a lot of things to a lot of people. Mack was in my life for four decades. I never enjoyed life more. We all knew we were involved in something exceptionally great, and it showed in our confidence and the quality of our work. Mack people, from east coast to west - no other truckmaker ever had a higher caliber group of individuals.

Mack Trucks, unlike any other truckmaker throughout U.S. history, had a soul. Mack was not a brand. Mack was a legend. Mack was a family, of employees and customers. For customers, Mack was a feeling. For Mack employees everywhere, Mack was a way of life. Nobody ever said "built like a Freightliner, or International". No other U.S. truck brand ever became a household word.

Mack Trucks, the legendary US truckmaker that for a century put the world on notice that it was at the forefront of heavy truck development and symbolized the greatness and might of America, no longer exists.

Volvo wanted and found the means to acquire the Mack brand and disassembled the company. Now, the decapitated Mack brand is no more than a Mack emblem on a disposable low-quality truck built around Volvo components. When I look at a (U.S.-built) Mack truck at the dealers, I'm disgusted with what Volvo has done to a once great American truckmaker. The new Macks on the lot are rusting from front to back within a month (I suppose the lack of primer paint and paper thin coat of paint adds to Volvo's bottom line). The shoddy way the wiring and air piping are plumbed along the chassis is an embarassment. No, such construction is not indicative of a Mack truck.

[kscarbel]

America losing its manufacturing base is mostly myth. America still builds more things by GDP than Germany, Japan, and yes even China. Many of the job losses people hear about in manufacturing are do to automation and other efficiencies of a post-industrial economy. Our industial base is still the envy of the world, thats why all the major global players have to come here to compete in the global economy that AMERICA MADE.

Quoting Mr. Brian O'Shaughnessy, CEO of Revere Copper Products (the oldest industrial company in the U.S.), "We all need to wake up and understand the forces of foreign economic mercantilism that are waging an economic war against us."

It is humiliating that America has become so non-competitive in heavy truck design that we no longer have the ability to compete and lead in our own domestic truck industry. One by one, American truckmakers have been bought out by European rivals. It is not in America's economic interest for the Swedes and Germans to dominate our country's truck industry.

[41180]

i think all new vehicles rust alot sooner than they used to. look at any frame of a pickup truck after 3 yrs the paint is gone . i wish things were like the old days as well. but we live in this world economy and the old america is gone forever. im just as sad as you about this. i wish i could buy a brand new mack superliner or titan model with a modern mack v8 engine with 600 hp and 600 engine brake hp, but it does not exhist. i was skeptic of the titan we got recently but knock on wood so far its been great. the mp10/ d16 is a powerful engine and the engine brake is downright ferocious. and its the quietest truck ive ever heard. we plan purchasing more. and the best thing is we can still go to our mack service dealer and get excellent service. so to us thats the best thing about staying with the new macks, a truck is only as good as its service dealer. we have had other brands and the service is just not there.

i know for a fact that 1999 was te lst yr of the v8 here in the us . my dad tried to order a cl in mid 99 and they told him it was no longer available in trucks, so he would have to get a cummins or a ch with the 460xt 487 hp etech with 1760 torque so thats what he did. it was a good little truck but got totaled in 2003 . and we gliderd it into cl log truck chassis. i currently run the 04 cl glider every day with the 460xt and 18 speed mack trans. like you mack is in my blood .

[kscarbel]

I hear you. And yes, the Volvo D16 will give you solid performance. But if I could put you in the seat of a Scania R Series (with a 16.4L 730hp V-8) or MAN TGX (with a 16.2L 680hp V-8) , you'd be impressed even more.

Volvo's termination of Mack product, including the 16.4L E9 V-8 (rated up to 610hp in truck applications*), was a slap in the face to genuine Mack engineering and an insight of things to come.

* 700hp (TRM 700-100 tank transporter), 750hp (AMX-30 B2 main battle tank), 900hp and 1,000hp versions for military applications - dual stage Garrett turbocharging on both exhaust manifolds, 4 turbos total.

There's no question that the European truckmakers build outstanding products. But the issue here is: Why are America's truckmakers losing their ability to lead? When a legendary American truckmaker, indisputably a global icon and representative of our country's most prominent companies, falls into the hands our European economic rivals (and make no mistake about that), we need to begin asking ourselves some hard questions.

Twenty-five years ago, the US truckmakers were superior to their European peers. Now, the European truckmakers have purchased six of our truckmakers and dominate the U.S. domestic truck market. Only Paccar and Navistar remain (and the latter on shaky ground). No one lost sleep when England's truckmakers faded into history. But now we are talking about the United States of America. Our great country was once a global powerhouse that redefined the meaning of industrial might and engineering excellence.

Was the American corporate management at our defunct truckmakers inferior to that of the Europeans? Are the Europeans now better at business than we are in our own country? Has humility replaced national pride?

Americans have a typically American way of running the store, actually quite different from the European business culture. However at the end of the day, in our unique American way, we used to lead. Now, over half of the heavy trucks on the road in America are produced by the Germans and Swedes. Should we Americans all stick our heads in the sand and allow the Europeans to take over our truck industry? No big deal? Wrong - This is a very big deal.