Cold Weather Operations

[hatcity]

I know this is odd coming from someone in Florida.

Back in the day, a little help on the fuel system was to put a couple gallons of kerosene in the fuel tank.

The reasoning was that kero kept fuel from gelling, and had a lower flashpoint to fire easier.

With the new engines, ULSD, and such, is this still a practice in the northern areas?

How good do the additives do? To what temp. are they effective?

Yes, cold for us is maybe a frost.

[other dog]

I don't know if you can put kerosine in them or not Ed, never heard anybody say. It's probably illegal even if it doesn't hurt anything.

H.H. Moore used to have fuel delivered with kerosine already in it in the winter, didn't have to worry about it gelling with kerosine. I asked Todd Thursday if anybody had any trouble with fuel gelling and he said no, but the DEF froze on a couple of trucks. Mine might have froze, I had to buy some on the road for the first time- $13.99 for a 2 1/2 gallon jug, and the man that delivers the bulk DEF to the yard says it's 98 % water.

Maybe the super hot exhaust helps keep the fuel from freezing, because it used to be when it got down to single digit temperatures you'd best have some kind of conditioner in the fuel or you were in trouble. Doesn't seem to be the case any more.

[refusegetter]

It has been quite cold in RI this past week, I'm talking single digits. I haven't seen or heard of anyone having any trouble with fuel gelling. The delivery companies put an additive in it, not sure what or how much, but it's in their best interest to sell a good product.

[farmer52]

In extreme cold temps (typically Canada), additives will become ineffective. So you have to use kero which is okay but it must be Ultra Low Sulfur Kero. More cost effective to use cold flow improver additve then kero.

DEF will turn to "toothpaste" consistancy when below ~20F. There is a heater in the DEF tank once the engine starts. EPA allows 30 minutes (I think) for the DEF to thaw. When the engine is shutdown, the DEF pump actually pumps the DEF back into the tank so the lines do not freeze.

Fuel suppliers blend fuel per ASTM spec for average temps (in the service area). Problems can occur if someone fuels in the south and travels north (mild climate to cold climate) without refueling with "local" fuel.

[slpwlker]

Ed just go to Wally world. Beleive it or not they sell additive in Fl. Problem I have is go somewhere and buy fuel and they got #1 and # 2 diesel. 40 cents per gal difference. I find it cheaper to get reg fuel and buy the additive myself. Use to have a heater on the truck but don't know if it actually worked. Gonna put another one back on as I never froze. Had a tank act up till I added more additive but truck never died.

[randyp]

I know this is odd coming from someone in Florida.

Back in the day, a little help on the fuel system was to put a couple gallons of kerosene in the fuel tank.

The reasoning was that kero kept fuel from gelling, and had a lower flashpoint to fire easier.

With the new engines, ULSD, and such, is this still a practice in the northern areas?

How good do the additives do? To what temp. are they effective?

Yes, cold for us is maybe a frost.

I am shocked to think anyone in florida could say something "odd". Loosen your thong and clear your head up. Frost is not cold, or even edible, or snow ball material. i dont wanna see no more talk bout fuel gelling from you,,,just beach scene pictures! randyp

[vision386]

My trucks is too old for the DEF/Urea B.S.,but i use fuel additive all winter,and knock wood (my head) i have never had any problems fuelwise. I have seen new trucks with stickers on the fuel tanks that says "Use of fuel additives not recomended" so i'm not 100% sure its a good idea,may hurt the engine? personally.i use "Howes" winter mix,and swear by it,and i've been to some pretty damn cold places! (not Florida cold mind you!) but Montana cold!....................................Mark

[randyp]

I use power service additive year round in everthing. I use it mostly for the cetane boost, and a lil added lubrication for pumps. I do add a small amount of 2 cycle oil to storage tank for more lubrication, as all my engines are from the days when diesel was diesel. Nothing worse than trying to ram a dry hole,,er,,,um,,,diesel hole? randyp

[farmer52]

I use Stanadyne Performance formula in all my Diesel powered vehicles year round. I keep a bottle in the MH storage comparment. Just like American Express..don't leave home without it.

Engine OEMs have always been against using fuel additives. They all say "our engine will run on any Diesel fuel." That may have been true 20-30 years ago but Diesel fuel quality is not what it used to be. Engines today run hotter and return HOT fuel to the fuel tank (fuel is used to cool the engine ECU). And because of this heat, the fuel deteriorates quickly. Hydrocracking of the fuel to remove aromatics and desulfurization are some reasons why the fuel deteriorates quickly (sulfur is a natural fuel stabilizer and provides lubricity). If you ever see "dark" Diesel fuel, that is a result of heat. John Deere recognizes the quality of Diesel fuel has degraded and they market a JD branded fuel additive. CAT has a branded fuel additive also. ASTM specs require a lubricity additive in all Diesel fuel. But there are other benefits from using a good multifunctional additive package...additional lubricity, fuel stability, cetane improver, water control, cold flow improver, and deposit control. A problem developing in newer engines is "internal injector deposits." There are a lot of "mouse milk" products out in the market but if you use a known branded product (Stanadyne, Power Service, Penray, FPPF, Howe, etc.) you should be okay. There are also fuel additives that are specifically formulated to use with bioDiesel.

Additional additives in engine oil and driveline fluids are not necessary. Just use a quality branded product of the correct grade and you will be okay.

[Apple dog]

I have seen some people put a few gallons of gas in the tank. Not to much as it burns hotter than diesel if one could not get to kerosene. It worked well. When I hauled chips and sawdust from MT Storm (so cold at times I would squirt the dirt and it would freeze before I was done) the fuel was cut with kerosene when it was loaded on the fuel tank and then I used to use some additive FFFP I think it was. Now my 96 cat circulate fuel real good. When its real cold and stop to get fuel the tanks feel warm because of the good fuel circulation. I use some Lucas cold weather treatment now.

[purepressure2004]

I remember years ago we used to use this stuff called liquid gold, I can't remember the real name of it. It worked good for ungelling fuel and kept you from gelling up. We use Diesel 911 now as precautionary.

[randyp]

I have seen some people would put a few gallons of gas in the tank. Not to much as it burns hotter than diesel if one could not get to kerosene. It worked well. When I hauled chips and sawdust from MT Storm (so cold at times I would squirt the dirt and it would freeze before I was done) the fuel was cut with kerosene when it was loaded on the tank and then I used to use some additive FFFP I think it was. Now my 96 cat circulate fuel real good. When its real cold and stop to get fuel the tanks feel warm because of the good fuel circulation. I some Lucas cold weather treatment now.

I have seen some people would put a few gallons of gas in the tank. Not to much as it burns hotter than diesel if one could not get to kerosene. It worked well. When I hauled chips and sawdust from MT Storm (so cold at times I would squirt the dirt and it would freeze before I was done) the fuel was cut with kerosene when it was loaded on the tank and then I used to use some additive FFFP I think it was. Now my 96 cat circulate fuel real good. When its real cold and stop to get fuel the tanks feel warm because of the good fuel circulation. I some Lucas cold weather treatment now.

I would rather piss my pants than pull "howard" out of his hiding place anywhere it was that cold! Thats too cold!! randyp

[hatcity]

I normally run Diesel Service stuff, mainly for added lubricity. The bottles I get at NAPA say "cold weather formula" or something like that.

I was just wondering if the kero would create problems with the newer engines.

NOT that I plan to go north of Orlando anytime soon.

Thanks all for the input.

Oh, and Randy, you actually NAME it?

Stay warm

[Vladislav]

Kerosene is not good about cetane index although it works.

Gesoline is extremely bad for diesel because of it's detonation character.

As i read in a book there are different kinds of kero and the aviation kerosene (must read jet fuel) is not allowed for diesel engines.

There is an arctik kind of diesel fuel in Russia (not avail. in the region I live) that is up to -60 Celsias. People say it's clear kerosene.

As about here there are winter and commen fuels for sale. When temp. comes below water freezing (0 C) the winter one must be at stations. So we could have troubles tanking one day and driven some days later when colder time comes. Plus to it nobody might shure about how a fuel is good. So we usually apply some additives. And the most working one is "Hi gear" made in USA (?) There are also different kinds of electric fuel filter heaters those helpful. My car has a heater combined into cooling system so I usually have no issues. Added some antigell just once this winter.

[GreenGiant2]

i run the stanadyne in my stuff. seems to work well

gg2

[randyp]

I normally run Diesel Service stuff, mainly for added lubricity. The bottles I get at NAPA say "cold weather formula" or something like that.

I was just wondering if the kero would create problems with the newer engines.

NOT that I plan to go north of Orlando anytime soon.

Thanks all for the input.

Oh, and Randy, you actually NAME it?

Stay warm

23r8siw.jpg

Well,,I guess i decided to call it Howard one night during a real amorous moment with the lil misses a few years ago Hat. She was little then anyway, (i said a few years ago). I thought i musta been hitting the spot, cause she was moaning and saying,,"Oh Howard, Howard,,,give it to me Howard!" Thats when I named him. I was telling my neighbor Howard bout it a few weeks later, he got a big laugh,,,,er,,,hmmm,,,my neighbors name just happens to be Howard,,hmmm,,,let me get back with you bout this later,,,hmmm,,,,Doh!!!! (this is one hell of a coincidence,,,hmm,,howard?) randyp

[DigDug]

I know this is odd coming from someone in Florida.

Back in the day, a little help on the fuel system was to put a couple gallons of kerosene in the fuel tank.

The reasoning was that kero kept fuel from gelling, and had a lower flashpoint to fire easier.

With the new engines, ULSD, and such, is this still a practice in the northern areas?

How good do the additives do? To what temp. are they effective?

Yes, cold for us is maybe a frost.

Its been around 10 degrees to -10 degrees here for the last week. The newest stuff I have is 2006 and we cut the fuel 50/50 with kerosene and or use Power Service 911 when needed. No problems.

[refusegetter]

I remember years ago we used to use this stuff called liquid gold, I can't remember the real name of it. It worked good for ungelling fuel and kept you from gelling up. We use Diesel 911 now as precautionary.

Liquid gold.... Isn't that just reg diesel?

[Green Dash]

The ulsd where I work has an additive but I don't know exactly what it is. We had single digit temps a few nights this past week with highs in the teens. No gelling issues with the trucks that run day and night or the ones that sit at night.

Well,,I guess i decided to call it Howard one night during a real amorous moment with the lil misses a few years ago Hat. She was little then anyway, (i said a few years ago). I thought i musta been hitting the spot, cause she was moaning and saying,,"Oh Howard, Howard,,,give it to me Howard!" Thats when I named him. I was telling my neighbor Howard bout it a few weeks later, he got a big laugh,,,,er,,,hmmm,,,my neighbors name just happens to be Howard,,hmmm,,,let me get back with you bout this later,,,hmmm,,,,Doh!!!! (this is one hell of a coincidence,,,hmm,,howard?) randyp

Now ya got me feelin' suspicious. I'm gonna have to go door to door and see if any of my neighbors answer to "Softy".

[Freightrain]

I dump some PowerService in the ol B a few times a summer to just add to the protection(lubricity), since I know this old truck stuff ain't built like the new stuff.

Lucky I haven't had to deal with jell'n fuel since I sold my 2000 Ford PSD years back. Only had it jell once in 2 yrs, and I used PS in it all winter.

[slpwlker]

Another additive I run in the fuel is Motorkote fuel additive. Truck really seemed to smooth out alittle more. May start trying the oil additive

[Maddog13407]

have heard of the old timers pourin a little gas in the diesel tank to in the old days. we usually run red oil in all our rental and offroad equipment, i occasionally run a tank thru the truck iim low but not usually, they have been checkin 1 ton pickups here lately in Ny. was glas i had red oil the past few days cause my buddy at Napa told me i had the only Superduty piece of junk around still runnin. he knew something was up. was 18-20 below zero here for 2 days about 3-4 days ago. i usually pour the white jug next to the 911 in the tank year around tho. i have a 100 gallon tank on back of truck and 300 in the shop. have not had any problems, just a plugged filter lately but no gellin.

[leversole]

The superliner has been running everyday around here (I leave it on the block heater) at 8-16 degrees...it was in the mid 20's Sunday...fired up the B model...warmed her up, after about 10 minutes, she just died away like the filters were plugging...must be gellin...it'll be 40 around here tommorrow...will try to cranker up again...

[lucerne tractor]

When I left Dysarts in Bangor Maine a few weeks ago, there was a sign by the fuel desk, good to -20. I believe it has kerosene mix. They also have a pallet or two of Howes by the desk. I have started up at -27 no problem except the batteries were useless, had to get a boost. Man don't they rattle when it's that cold. I know if you have a heating fuel tank for your house outside you have to buy kero but if it's in the basement or garage #2 is fine.I try to run the tanks low and fill up when I get home, more money but it won't gell.

[farmer52]

The superliner has been running everyday around here (I leave it on the block heater) at 8-16 degrees...it was in the mid 20's Sunday...fired up the B model...warmed her up, after about 10 minutes, she just died away like the filters were plugging...must be gellin...it'll be 40 around here tommorrow...will try to cranker up again...

When did you last fuel the B? It may not have winter blend fuel. I think you mentioned you just fueled the Super, so it likely has winter fuel.