Owner said it had a slight Engine Noise

[220cummins]

This 1998 Volvo with a Series 60 Detroit came into the garage with the owner saying there was a slight engine noise.

Pulled the dipstick to see it was over full, it looked murky and white a sure sign of water. Then I tried to get it running with a few shots of silicone spray and it fired right up albeit clouds of white smoke or burning coolant. I shut it off drained the oil and found the pieces in the first picture(minus the valve) attached to the pan magnet.

Next it was disassembly to fin out what those pieces were. I was thinking piston or liner. After further disassembly the second picture is of the parts that were in the intake manifold. The piston came apart and some went in the down in the oil and some went up into the intake.

Here is after the head was pulled. You can see the piston top wedged in the liner (which was cracked-hence the coolant in the oil) and the wrist pin still attached with the bottom half of the piston moving with the rotating assembly. The bottom of the head looks bad but salvagable and is now at the machine shop getting tore down. Kinda got lucky that it broke the intake valve and not the exhaust and completely wiped out the turbo or other cylinders.

Needless to say I am now doing a complete inframe overhaul. Not bad for an engine that has close to 900k on it and has never been touched before.

[Vladislav]

Nice metal pieces, I like 'em

Once I bought Mercedes off-road vehicle with a gasoline V-8 under the hood.

Not running. The owner said "something about engine, no oil in the pan".

First I observed some strange oil trace above the engine top, it looked like oil came out of a deep stick tube.

Took the heads off and saw something like you posted above. With only difference that the rod broke aluminium cylinder lining (Mercedes car V's) and the side wall also, and the oil pan for the company. There was a bunch of oil/coolant mixture and so on. After I took everything apart I found a rod cover's nut in the pan (and the cover itself). Saw another rod cover's bolt broken but the first one solid with the last two tread turns off. So. Somebody tightened rod's nut not good enough and it turned off. The second bolt worked fair and broken.

The most interesting moment. All the 8 plugs were filled with oil/coolant mixture. So it seemed to me that the guy (or more hopefully woman) drove when the nut got off, drove when the cover came off, drove when the piston broken and the rod was breaking the housing. But he or she stopped when coolant came into the plugs and the engine shuted down.

[vision386]

Years ago i was parked in a truckstop next to a Schneider IH Cabover,i went in to eat/shower and when i came out the driver walked over to me,and asked if i knew anything about trucks. "A little" i said,what seems to be the trouble?" well,it made a loud bang when i tried to start it" (he had something wrapped in a rag in his hand) i made i quick look under the truck (huge puddle of oil) when i stood up,he showed me what was in his hand,and asked "is this important"? it was! what he had in his hand was the journal end of a connecting rod,with a piece of the crank still attached! hole in the oil pan about the size of a football! 60 series detroit if i remember correctly............................Mark

[theakerstwo]

The DD in the photos has dad what is called piston debonding. The top of the piston is molded to the trunk part that holds the shirt on. I have seen it many times. One year and i cant remenber when DD had a lot of bad pistons like that. Many times a peice of piston get between the rod and block and the block is pushed out. Arrow trucking here who buy maybe 250 trucks a year and one year almost all of them had problems like that.They built their own wrecker to recover them so they would be repaired here at home. We replace about 70 engines complete and repair more than that under warranty.Some times a dealer some were would pull the valve cover on the road to find the problem and then close the hood for return home. They were many at one time in our yard waiting for their turn to come in the shop. One day i was giving a ticket and told to get it in and check it out. I towed it in with the fork lift and first then i found was V/C was off so i knew pan needed pulled next. I drained the pan and nothen was in the pan so i jack it up and removed the last bolt in the pan a not come down with the pan. I got a hammer and made it come down and i was under the pan. When it came down it almost mash my stuff out.I did not know but the rain water had drained in alround the back of the hood and filled the pan. Being this was in the winter and it was out side it was all ice in the oil pan.

[220cummins]

Years ago i was parked in a truckstop next to a Schneider IH Cabover,i went in to eat/shower and when i came out the driver walked over to me,and asked if i knew anything about trucks. "A little" i said,what seems to be the trouble?" well,it made a loud bang when i tried to start it" (he had something wrapped in a rag in his hand) i made i quick look under the truck (huge puddle of oil) when i stood up,he showed me what was in his hand,and asked "is this important"? it was! what he had in his hand was the journal end of a connecting rod,with a piece of the crank still attached! hole in the oil pan about the size of a football! 60 series detroit if i remember correctly............................Mark

Schneider drivers lol wow. From what I'm told by the machinist who is checking the head and does some 20 or more series 60 a year the cranks are pretty stout and have to be put thru hell to break. In this case he said, the reason for the pistons come apart is usually due to a weak design of piston in some series 60. Im looking forward to doing this job as it's a learning experience and a little different than a Mack or a Cummins.

[220cummins]

The DD in the photos has dad what is called piston debonding. The top of the piston is molded to the trunk part that holds the shirt on. I have seen it many times. One year and i cant remenber when DD had a lot of bad pistons like that. Many times a peice of piston get between the rod and block and the block is pushed out. Arrow trucking here who buy maybe 250 trucks a year and one year almost all of them had problems like that.They built their own wrecker to recover them so they would be repaired here at home. We replace about 70 engines complete and repair more than that under warranty.Some times a dealer some were would pull the valve cover on the road to find the problem and then close the hood for return home. They were many at one time in our yard waiting for their turn to come in the shop. One day i was giving a ticket and told to get it in and check it out. I towed it in with the fork lift and first then i found was V/C was off so i knew pan needed pulled next. I drained the pan and nothen was in the pan so i jack it up and removed the last bolt in the pan a not come down with the pan. I got a hammer and made it come down and i was under the pan. When it came down it almost mash my stuff out.I did not know but the rain water had drained in alround the back of the hood and filled the pan. Being this was in the winter and it was out side it was all ice in the oil pan.

That's what the machinist called it! I forgot what it was called. He also said it shouldn't be a problem to the head of block because all the damage was confined to the inside of the fire ring which shouldn't affect sealing of the head.

[bullhusk]

The DD in the photos has dad what is called piston debonding. The top of the piston is molded to the trunk part that holds the shirt on. I have seen it many times. One year and i cant remenber when DD had a lot of bad pistons like that. Many times a peice of piston get between the rod and block and the block is pushed out. Arrow trucking here who buy maybe 250 trucks a year and one year almost all of them had problems like that.They built their own wrecker to recover them so they would be repaired here at home. We replace about 70 engines complete and repair more than that under warranty.Some times a dealer some were would pull the valve cover on the road to find the problem and then close the hood for return home. They were many at one time in our yard waiting for their turn to come in the shop. One day i was giving a ticket and told to get it in and check it out. I towed it in with the fork lift and first then i found was V/C was off so i knew pan needed pulled next. I drained the pan and nothen was in the pan so i jack it up and removed the last bolt in the pan a not come down with the pan. I got a hammer and made it come down and i was under the pan. When it came down it almost mash my stuff out.I did not know but the rain water had drained in alround the back of the hood and filled the pan. Being this was in the winter and it was out side it was all ice in the oil pan.

I had 4 of my 93 Petes an one 95 F-Liner with seres 60 piston trouble! two threw the rods out the side!! But I will tell you this........Detroit put new motors in all of them, one had close to 400,000 on it and was out of wrnt. no questions asked they just took it in and yanked the old motor out and put another one in! I'm still usin them today

BULLHUSK

[JTFormula]

Probably a fan belt issue. Lol

[h67st]

Years ago i was parked in a truckstop next to a Schneider IH Cabover,i went in to eat/shower and when i came out the driver walked over to me,and asked if i knew anything about trucks. "A little" i said,what seems to be the trouble?" well,it made a loud bang when i tried to start it" (he had something wrapped in a rag in his hand) i made i quick look under the truck (huge puddle of oil) when i stood up,he showed me what was in his hand,and asked "is this important"? it was! what he had in his hand was the journal end of a connecting rod,with a piece of the crank still attached! hole in the oil pan about the size of a football! 60 series detroit if i remember correctly............................Mark

Positive Crankcase Ventilation!!

[vision386]

Positive Crankcase Ventilation!!

No doubt! LOL!...........................................Mark

[rsb502]

When i worked for Howard Baer I saw that probably a dozen times, seemed to happen on the 470hp DDEC3 engines more than the others. While I was there we actually started rebulding them all at 750,000 issues or not we did an inframe any more than that an we would end up with a broken piston or a rod thru the block so we just built em all. I had an 8.3 250hp Cummins in a school bus we had several around here it was a 97 12v mechanical and logged 355000 m iles on a school bus mind you not otr and it started to rattle and before we could get into it during summer break a rod shot out the block, after inspecting the bolts just came out it didnt break.

[220cummins]

When i worked for Howard Baer I saw that probably a dozen times, seemed to happen on the 470hp DDEC3 engines more than the others. While I was there we actually started rebulding them all at 750,000 issues or not we did an inframe any more than that an we would end up with a broken piston or a rod thru the block so we just built em all. I had an 8.3 250hp Cummins in a school bus we had several around here it was a 97 12v mechanical and logged 355000 m iles on a school bus mind you not otr and it started to rattle and before we could get into it during summer break a rod shot out the block, after inspecting the bolts just came out it didnt break.

Yep this one is a DDEC IV 430/470hp. I have to say even with this many miles the cam, rod, and main bearings are all wore even with not major scoring or heat markers. Had it not been for the coolant burning up when I first had it running I would have said it might have just been an injector causing the miss because it wasn't noisy or rapping. That would have been before the compression check.

[rsb502]

Yep piston crown stuck up top with the rod and skirt still movin, just sounds like a miss running.....then you pull the oil plug and get 6-8gals of coolant and then you get to the oil. It amazed this shit out of me first time one came in, I put a bar on it and it turned ok so I hit the starter and heard the death rattle and miss. And of course when a cold DDEC engine starts it goes right to 1200rpm so it just makes one hell of a rattle.

[theakerstwo]

In 98 or 99 DD came out with what was called half engine. Untill we got some schooling it fooled us. When cold it would start and run on 3 cylinders and also it would alternate on them untill it warmed up or the park brake was released.This fooled us as we as the drivers that got them then we learned how they were running but they would miss like crasy for a while.

[220cummins]

Interesting wonder what the concept behind that was? Fuel savings?

[220cummins]

Getting back into this Series 60. The block,head,crank,and cam came back from the machine shop so I'm finally getting back into this. Here are a couple of pics of the progress. The first pic is the front of the engine with the various timing gears and Bull Gear (big center one) during teardown. The second pic is the polished crank installed and torqued up with new bearings in a newly line-bored block. The third pic is the liner puller I fabbed up to remove the liners from the block. It worked really well and beat spending $600 on a new one. The last pic is the Bullgear that is in good shape but is getting the roller bearings replaced. That is my question. Does anyone know the torque of the 3-1/4" retaining nut that holds this assembly together? I read somewhere online saying 700 ft/lbs. Typically no one re-bearings these Bullgears. Even my buddy that works at Penn-Detriot/Allison wasn't sure of the torque spec because they usually just replace the entire assembly, which I would normally would, but this Bullgear's teeth still look good as well as the rest of the assembly. I'd rather replace the bearing for $130 and be safe then to just throw it back in there or spend $650 for a remanned one

[theakerstwo]

I worked those engine for many years and was always told that you can not keep the nut tight after taking it off so ever one I know exchange the gear.

[rsb502]

I worked those engine for many years and was always told that you can not keep the nut tight after taking it off so ever one I know exchange the gear.

X2 I was told once you stretch the threads it wont ever hold a nut again aand to replace it or youd be digging for pieces of ground up bearing, gear and retaining nut.

[220cummins]

Ok thanks for the info. I'll have to look into getting a new nut or go with the remanned bullgear. 84superdog, do you mean the threads on the hub or the nut itself. Thanks again!

[rsb502]

I was told to replace both due to thread stretch on the hub and never ever ever re-use a nut on something that takes a lot of torque on a Detroit the bolts are cheap compared to doing it again. I bet youll like torquing the head on that one, it goes to 200 or 250 I cant remember which right now in three stages, your arm will be killing you if you do it all at one time(38 bolts I think?). I used three different color paint pens to mark my head bolts to make sure I got em all one color for each torque step. Good luck with the rebuild and make sure the liner protrusion is right if not youll get a head gasket issue pretty quick its a pain in the butt to do but when you use your liner inserter keep pressure on the liner and use a straight edge and caliper to check it, they are pretty touchy on the liner fitment, I think I still have some detroit series 60 injector height guages somewhere around here.

[220cummins]

Thanks for the added info. Ive told and read about the liner height being so touchy. Yep 38 head bolts, I'm gonna get the few paint pens to mark them up thanks!

[rsb502]

Ha I wonder what it takes to get a best answer here on the engine threads? LOL! I had to go thru a many series 60 at Howard Baer we ended up with all the detroit tools to do it right and make it easier, they are actually really simple engines which may be why they are so reliable up to that mysterious 700- 800k mark, I wonder if they build in piston failure at a certain amount of hours?

[220cummins]

I surprised how lighter weight the valve train is say compared to a cummins or a Mack. My machinist told me that he thinks they designed that so if something would fail it would be up top like that not to mention it being an overhead cam.

[rsb502]

Detroit says its due to the Overhead cam, everything is shorter thus needs less rigidity, it is actually part of the reason they are so sarn efficient. I think with a couple mods related to the bull gear and pistons they would be hard to beat engines for sure, they have one of the best power to weight ratios there is and anyone that has run one will tell you a good running 500hp series 60 is right up there with a 525 N14 or 550 Cat 3406E. I have long pondered building one with some custom pistons and cranking it up to see how well it would actually do in the real world without the epa restrictions that cause exces heat and the weak piston.

Thanks for the best answer, LOL! i see some threads get it and some dont it makes me laugh, kindof a crap shoot. LOL!

[theakerstwo]

The gear train was fixed wirth the last 60S. It has a different cam and front cover and gear train.Its the DDEC 5