Initial Run-in And Retorque Of The Heads Procedure

[treemuncher]

I finally got the E9 all back together and cozy with the frame. The test driving bobtail was fine except that it was slipping the clutch a little due to the torque and maybe some errant grease or oil on the flywheel. The clutch was re-adjusted and I took it out to pick up some equipment with my lowboy. While the trailer was empty, I had no problems but after I loaded up with about 25k lbs of equipment, the ride home went real bad, really fast. I'm pretty sure a couple of head gaskets let loose as I lost a lot of power and it started running very rough. I made it home, but it was a slow ride.

The only thing that I think may have gone wrong on my reassembly would have been the run-in and retorque procedure. I am a meticulous mechanic. I don't think that I missed anything on reassembly. The book was very vague regarding initial run-in procedures.

My questions:

1) What is the correct run-in procedure before retorque of the heads?

2) Should the engine be hot or cold during retorque?

I was so pissed with the whole deal that I parked the truck over the holiday week and left town. Now I have to face reality and get busy with it and determine if the head gaskets did go. If a simple retorque procedure can't fix the problem then I guess I will be yanking the motor out of the cradle, again I am not happy with the machine shop that did the valve job as they banged the heads around and left scratches that cross over the fire rings. I think this led to the problem.

The block measured flat enough with the feeler gauges, as did the heads but both surfaces looked less than perfect. I think the motor had a bad gasket or two on it for a long time before I adopted it. Any suggestion besides finding another heart for the patient would be appreciated.

Edited November 28, 2007 by treemuncher

[theakerstwo]

I finally got the E9 all back together and cozy with the frame. The test driving bobtail was fine except that it was slipping the clutch a little due to the torque and maybe some errant grease or oil on the flywheel. The clutch was re-adjusted and I took it out to pick up some equipment with my lowboy. While the trailer was empty, I had no problems but after I loaded up with about 25k lbs of equipment, the ride home went real bad, really fast. I'm pretty sure a couple of head gaskets let loose as I lost a lot of power and it started running very rough. I made it home, but it was a slow ride.

The only thing that I think may have gone wrong on my reassembly would have been the run-in and retorque procedure. I am a meticulous mechanic. I don't think that I missed anything on reassembly. The book was very vague regarding initial run-in procedures.

My questions:

1) What is the correct run-in procedure before retorque of the heads?

2) Should the engine be hot or cold during retorque?

I was so pissed with the whole deal that I parked the truck over the holiday week and left town. Now I have to face reality and get busy with it and determine if the head gaskets did go. If a simple retorque procedure can't fix the problem then I guess I will be yanking the motor out of the cradle, again I am not happy with the machine shop that did the valve job as they banged the heads around and left scratches that cross over the fire rings. I think this led to the problem.

The block measured flat enough with the feeler gauges, as did the heads but both surfaces looked less than perfect. I think the motor had a bad gasket or two on it for a long time before I adopted it. Any suggestion besides finding another heart for the patient would be appreciated.

If you had i guess you are talking about head gaskets leaking or blowing you would hear them making a leaking copression noise like leaking compression to the out side. But if they blowed that soon your engine has a problem other than a torque procedure. I know old boys that dont take time to retorqe and dont have that much trouble. i guess you check the liner protrueion and the top of the liner were not damage.You probley would have compression in the coolant if you had a head gasket leaking bad enough to loose power.It i were you i would find the clyinder that are missing and that is easy and then pull the valve covers on that cylinder and then see if a push tube did not jump off. I my self let the engine get 5 to 10,000 miles on it then let it cool and retorqe by backing off one head bolt at a time 1 turn and retorque it and go to the next bolt and the reset valves. I have not worked on the E9 very much but the 864 865 was my days and the thing you dont what to do is start tear it down llok for the miss. find it firsr and go on it may be a missing injector ,i mean they may have been ok before you pulled it down but any thing can happen when you are around a little dirt that is on all trucks and who knows why a push tube kicks off but some time they do. I dont know what you did to it but you will find it when you start checking for a miss.

[treemuncher]

If you had i guess you are talking about head gaskets leaking or blowing you would hear them making a leaking copression noise like leaking compression to the out side. But if they blowed that soon your engine has a problem other than a torque procedure. I know old boys that dont take time to retorqe and dont have that much trouble. i guess you check the liner protrueion and the top of the liner were not damage.You probley would have compression in the coolant if you had a head gasket leaking bad enough to loose power.It i were you i would find the clyinder that are missing and that is easy and then pull the valve covers on that cylinder and then see if a push tube did not jump off. I my self let the engine get 5 to 10,000 miles on it then let it cool and retorqe by backing off one head bolt at a time 1 turn and retorque it and go to the next bolt and the reset valves. I have not worked on the E9 very much but the 864 865 was my days and the thing you dont what to do is start tear it down llok for the miss. find it firsr and go on it may be a missing injector ,i mean they may have been ok before you pulled it down but any thing can happen when you are around a little dirt that is on all trucks and who knows why a push tube kicks off but some time they do. I dont know what you did to it but you will find it when you start checking for a miss.

I've had head gaskets let go on other engines. They do not always make noise to let you know compression is lost, nor do they always leak into the coolant system.

My plan is to start cracking injector pressures and using an infrared temp probe this AM to determine which cylinders are having a bad day. I've got a cylinder compression tester to check with after the preliminary test is done to see how bad things are.

What is your definition of a "push tube"? Are you referring to a pushrod that operates between the lifters and the rockers?

My liners spec'd out fine during pre-assembly measurements. Everything was re-assembled with care and done by the book. Even the torque wrench was new! The liners were not removed from the block. Only a valve job, new gaskets, seals and painting were done.

Thanks for the input.

Does anyone know if the retorque should be done with the engine hot or cold?

[fjh]

Muncher

Heres the drill!

Determinte which head is the culpret!listen for a ticking sound or use your heat gun!remove the lid and check for anything out of the ordinary bent push tubes on rockers ill adjusted or loose jam nuts on cross heads and rockers . Does the engine pound?/???? metal on metal sound???? if so lift the rocker on your suspect head and check the valve stem height! are they even?? if not you have droped a valve seat! Head's should come off and sent back to these guys to fix properly!if not maybe a bad injector or somthing!I have built my fair share of E9s and have never had a problem with head gaskets in a short period like you've done! Having said that!

Spec on liner height = 1/2 to 41/2 thou 4 is best the higher the better Being as you didn't remove them WERE THEY EVEN ALL THE WAY AROUND????

The liners can and do sink (counter bores crack)

head bolts you need to check ALL the bottom bolts for being broken SPECIALLY the corner ones we always replaced these with new they always seemed to break for some reason!

Anyway let us know what ya find determine the problemand and I'll try and help ya out some if your willing to listen!

[treemuncher]

Update: After cracking loose each injector line and listening to the difference in rpms, I determined it was #1 & #2 cylinders that were not operating.

After pulling the right fender off and getting under the rocker cover, it was determined that the rocker arm assembly had come loose, jumped the push rods and snapped one of the bolts off with about 1/2" threads left in the head. I was lucky enough to get the remains out of the head with just a sharp punch and a small hammer. Some of the holes around the base of the mounts were less than perfect but a little file touch up put things back to a flat state. I found 3 leftover 7/16 grade 8 bolts from my previous exhaust re-work that were perfect. I used the least damaged old bolt to make up the fourth unit. A new o-ring, some oil and locktite and things are now back together. The motor sure sounds better but not as good as "killer" the pullin' rig!

I must have missed torquing down those bolts on the rocker assembly during the re-build. I doubt there was any other way that they could have come loose in 50-60 miles. Other than a tiny chip out of the head next to the broken bolt, nothing was hurt but my backside from me kicking myself.

I hope to road test it again tomorrow after I finish with the mirror installation. The next drag will be about 52-55k lbs when I move my trackhoe. After that, I have a D8 to move and that should be the real test. If the clutch is not slipping with either of those loads then things will be looking pretty good.

I would still like to know what the factory's idea of run-in and retorque procedure is supposed to be. After the initial fire up, I let the engine run for about 30 minutes at 1200-1500 rpm with no load. I pulled it back in the shop and retorqued the next morning when everything was cooled back down. I don't know if this was the right way or not but there did seem to be a considerable amount of take up on the retorque.

[Camelback]

treemuncher i am glad that you have found your problem. I have always retorqued my heads cold and never had a problem. You said the machine shop was clumsy with your heads, well your not alone. I have never had any luck with machine shops when it comes to mack heads for some reason. I had one shop basically ruin 2 sets of mack heads for me and i can tell you i was not a happy camper when i came to pick them up. They milled one set like a wedge, and well the other set of heads it looked to me like they was training a flunky how to cut a firering. These were endtb 676 heads and the set that they goofed the fire rings up on well i put them on the engine anyway, and it runned for about a week and then the front head cracked wide open from the freezeout plug in the front to the block. LOL may have not been the machine shops fault for the crack but i blamed it on them anyway.

[fjh]

Proper run in as follows!Acorrding to me and it works for EVERY ENGINE for the most part, Start the engine run a 1000 rpms till tempature starts to rise ,run under moderate load till operating temp is reached!

PUT A BIG LOAD ON ITS BACK AND PRETEND that you just stole a million bucks from the bank and the cops are after you and you don't want to be thrown in the slammer.In the morning follow the previous writers instructions on head torqing back off 1\4 tighten to 225 Book says 210-20 I think?I always went a little tighter worked for me. :)And while your at it re tighten (ALL) the hose clamps the ones on the back in front of the turbo ALWAYS leak after a runnin and the water pump bypass as well!

The worst possible thing you can do to a high HP engine is not work it! 30 minutes idling is too long in my opinion ,the first hour or two of running is the MOST important hours of the engines life.IF you can get a good hard run in, in the first hour of a rebuild you got it made.The engine will not use oil and will serve you well glad you found the problem and it was simple!

The above breakin opinion is based on true life experiance NOT FROM SOME ONE FLYING A DESK!

When the v8 first apeared WE SOLD lots Here ,we had oil burners and some not !After some time We observed the engines that were oil burners were trucks that had made the trip from the factory to our lot 3500 miles awayEMTY !The trucks that were piggy backed from the factory were fine( no hours )the driven truck with dogs on its back were fine, BUT if the truck was BOBTAILED from there to here is where problems were encountered! Oil burners were inadvertantly created by doing this! No one really clued in to this for quite a few years.After working with the engine for a number of years you could see the pattern un fold and it really all makes sense.Our company from that point on tried to be sure that v8's were piggybacked and not driven emty that solved alot of problems!

Hence the method of breakin I use and will swear by EVERYTIME!

[Camelback]

fjh i have been a mechanic for years rebuilding diesel engines macks, and cats mainly my specialties and you are 110% correct. Never let those engines idle around after a rebuild. the harder they are worked in a break in the better, don't be a light foot and load light with a fresh rebuild. I have yet to have a oil burner that was worked hard in the break in period. Its so hard to get some ppl to agree though they think it needs to be babied around and thats when they get into trouble. Every engine i rebuild goes to hard work immediatly and if it can't it simply isn't runned until it can pull a load.

[Camelback]

the last 350 2 valve mack engine i rebuilt i started it idled it up checked for leaks backed under my east endump trailer and went straight to pick up a load of coal 50 miles away and i runned the truck one gear too high all the way to the pit on the empty side just to put a lil more load on it.. grossed out at 120,000 i am in kentucky by the way so i can do that....runned the dog piss out of the ol dog all day long and the engine to this date does not use a drop of oil between changes.

[treemuncher]

Last night I found the link to the Eaton Clutch video. I forgot who posted it but many thanks. That's a great video regarding how to install and set up the clutch. I re-adjusted my clutch and rechecked everything this morning. All was set to spec, now. Bob-tailed it did not seem to slip. With the lowboy and 25k lbs it slipped a little and then was ok. I moved the trackhoe this evening (50k lbs + 20k lb trailer) and I could slip it a little in high gear but then it seemed to dry out and hold well when I had to climb a steep hill on a side road heading to my jobsite.

The engine is still leaking oil, very badly. While I did not do a complete rebuild, just a valve job and head gaskets, I replaced the majority of the gaskets and oil hoses to prevent leaks. The liners still had light hone marks and few, if any, scratches. Everything looked really good inside the motor. Now, I still can't see where all the oil is coming from although it looks like the rivets at the draft tube connection might be the cause. When I had the engine out, I put in all new hoses in the valley and all new gaskets. The only other culprit could be the back of the injector pump.

As far as the rest of the engine goes, I am not impressed with the E9 at all. I don't expect it to run as fast as my WRX but it is still lacking power. I've never seen any black smoke and I am wondering if the air throttle is fully opening the injection pump. On a long pull, the pyrometer has not exceed 900 degrees, empty or loaded. The smoke that does exit the stack is usually nearly white or light in color but never black. I don't know if this is the emission controlled throttle or lack of fuel. All new filters were installed so that should not be the cause.

Does anyone have any suggestions on checking the air throttle? It acts as if it does not deliver full fuel flow when the pedal is on the floor, sometimes. The pedal will also make a funny sqeaking sound after crossing a rough area in the road, almost as if something in the air valve is loose or leaking. I think I miss the old cable rig on my E6. The E9 sounds like a freight train, which is cool. Now if I can get it to pull like one, I will be satisfied. When I pulled the trackhoe today, it was a little faster than the E6 but not by much and that's not good. My E6 was never over enthusiastic.

[fjh]

Last night I found the link to the Eaton Clutch video. I forgot who posted it

I beleive that be me!The thing the video touches on but dosent ephisize is the linkage adjustment!Get that clutch arm set properly and the rest is a cake walk!If you are using an easy pedal clutch and the linkage is not set correctly and you shoot for their measurments it will slip!

Them dam air throtles are a pain!You can tweak the peasure at the foot valve a bit but for the most part you need to mess with the linkage till you get it to hit the stop fully!!this is and rd 800 right?I would get or make a cable setup simular to the superliner set up it will make your life much simpler!SEE if Barry can set you up with at least a cable and devize your own pedal.

That v8 should pull like a train too IF you got full throtle and the stop is going FULL ON!Have somone push on the throtle and confirm at the pump that the lever is going full on! on both levers!The other posibility is the smoke limit diphram MAY have a hole in it!A good running V8 will make 24 to 28 psi boost and stay under 1000 on the pyro!A HOT V8 will make 28 to 32 psi boost and stay in the same heat area!

[treemuncher]

Last night I found the link to the Eaton Clutch video. I forgot who posted it

I beleive that be me!The thing the video touches on but dosent ephisize is the linkage adjustment!Get that clutch arm set properly and the rest is a cake walk!If you are using an easy pedal clutch and the linkage is not set correctly and you shoot for their measurments it will slip!

Them dam air throtles are a pain!You can tweak the peasure at the foot valve a bit but for the most part you need to mess with the linkage till you get it to hit the stop fully!!this is and rd 800 right?I would get or make a cable setup simular to the superliner set up it will make your life much simpler!SEE if Barry can set you up with at least a cable and devize your own pedal.

That v8 should pull like a train too IF you got full throtle and the stop is going FULL ON!Have somone push on the throtle and confirm at the pump that the lever is going full on! on both levers!The other posibility is the smoke limit diphram MAY have a hole in it!A good running V8 will make 24 to 28 psi boost and stay under 1000 on the pyro!A HOT V8 will make 28 to 32 psi boost and stay in the same heat area!

Yes, this is the RD that has the E9. My engine is running about 20-22 psi max boost. I have not seen the pyro get past 900 degrees. Both of these guages are brand new so they should be reliable. I'll have to check the throttle linkage this weekend when I can get an assistant, or cut a 2x4 to length between the seat and the throttle.

What is meant by "both levers" on the throttle adjustment. As far as I know, there is only one servo on the left side that operates the throttle.

I'm hoping that dropping that rocker arm assembly on #1 & #2 did not damage anything. It operated for 20-25 miles like that to limp on home. Other than bad fuel washing, I would not see it as too much of a problem. Without oxygen, the fuel should not have been able to ignite and as thin as the fuel is, it should have been able to bypass the rings. I was careful not to overheat anything on that trip home that night.

Thanks for the input.

[fjh]

Both levers !THE STOP LEVER wether air or cable poperated has to be fully on! And the throtle needs to go fully on to acheive comlplete power!Once youve run this abit you may want to juice it sum!The straight fuel pump didn't put out as good as the v pump! you can remove the (AFC)smoke limit divice at the top rear of the pump and slide the fuel plate forward 30 or so thou to get some more jam from it! You'll find the info to do this on this site> http://www.tstproducts.com/INSRUCT98.pdf

22 psi Is MAYBE 400 hp on a v8 what is the rating on the VALVE cover!

NOTE anything more than 28 psi boost your running the risk of pounding out your wristpin bushings!

USE THE POWER WISELY.

[Lmackattack]

FJH set me up real good with my 285 mack, He explained how to get my little 6 cly to 25-28psi on good pulls and keep my egts from gong past 1100deg. this is without a front mout air to air (just an charge cooler) if that E9 cant get above 23 psi it may be the reason it has no balls?

i have only driven a few V8 macks but i do know that in high range (gearbox)you should keep up with newer trucks with slightly more HP. As FJH said check the linkage. One of the superliners i drove had that junk air throttel and it always gave trouble the older and longer you drove it.

is it possible that when the pushrods jumped that the engine hyd locked on a cyl? it may have blown out the Head gasket on that cyl and is now causing some other issue.if the valves were closed and fuel was being injected that can be a problem??

hope you find the problem.

Trent

[treemuncher]

Both levers !THE STOP LEVER wether air or cable poperated has to be fully on! And the throtle needs to go fully on to acheive comlplete power!Once youve run this abit you may want to juice it sum!The straight fuel pump didn't put out as good as the v pump! you can remove the (AFC)smoke limit divice at the top rear of the pump and slide the fuel plate forward 30 or so thou to get some more jam from it! You'll find the info to do this on this site> http://www.tstproducts.com/INSRUCT98.pdf

22 psi Is MAYBE 400 hp on a v8 what is the rating on the VALVE cover!

NOTE anything more than 28 psi boost your running the risk of pounding out your wristpin bushings!

USE THE POWER WISELY.

It's a 500 hp E9.

Maybe I need to mount a 100 lb propane cylinder on the back end and put in the propane injection kit! The propane kit gave my F550 so much torque that it stripped out the stock clutch on a long hill! Propane makes a diesel much more fun to drive, that's for sure.

I'll be pulling the truck into the shop today to check on the throttle linkage. I know the stop lever is set correctly from when I installed the motor. If the air linkage is working proper, I'll set the fuel up a little bit at a time until things look right by the numbers. I certainly don't need to worry about trashing this engine.

[fjh]

It's a 500 hp E9.

Maybe I need to mount a 100 lb propane cylinder on the back end and put in the propane injection kit! The propane kit gave my F550 so much torque that it stripped out the stock clutch on a long hill! Propane makes a diesel much more fun to drive, that's for sure.

I'll be pulling the truck into the shop today to check on the throttle linkage. I know the stop lever is set correctly from when I installed the motor. If the air linkage is working proper, I'll set the fuel up a little bit at a time until things look right by the numbers. I certainly don't need to worry about trashing this engine.

Agreed! 24-28 28 is still safe! Like I told Trent if your pulling hard and you got just a smidge of black gray smoke your doing good at 28.

Before you do anything remove the 3/8 line that goes to the smoke control at the manifold!Suck on that line If it will not hold vacuam it will not hold preasure It needs replacing! replace it if its leaking before making any adjustments to the fuel plate

[treemuncher]

I made some adjustments to the throttle linkage because the throw did not appear to be correct. At full pedal mash, the air cylinder did not bottom out the throttle arm. It was as if the air cylinder was not moving far enough.

I also pulled the air throttle out and did some clean up and new o-rings on that part. It should be noted that the o-rings must be the correct size on the throttle body parts. I used what I had at the shop which was a tad overly thick and it caused the throttle to jump around alot due to the tight fit. The old part was reinstalled and that problem was solved.

While it was in the shop, I tested the diaphram on the puff limiter. It was fine. All of that assembly was pulled apart and cleaned up as well. So, I made some other adjustments while I could see how it worked. Now, the throttle response is much snappier, it lets out just a little black-grey smoke and seems to run somewhat stronger. I turned the fuel up just a little but my turbo pressure still has not exceeded 22psi, but then again, my trailer is still empty for the road tests. The next equipment move should tell me more.

I'm also going to post a question in steering & suspension regarding my power steering. It turns great to the right but it gets tight when turning to the left and will not go to the locks without extreme effort on the steering wheel.