So I guess not only can Americans build web site's we can't build helicopters either!

[bullhusk]

The pentagon under this obama freak show has bypassed US helicopter companys to spend 1 billion US TAX DOLLARS (our money again) to buy Russian built mi 17 helicopters for Afghanistan (you know the place that our young men an women where killed an crippled) !! where does it end !! So tell me again... Why did you vote for Obama???

BULLHUSK

[Red Horse]

Well the party line answer will be .."because the Afghans know how to work on the Ruski choppers-too expensive to teach them how to fix a Sikorsky".

Bigger question? why spend a nickel on anything? When will we learn? we are dealing with tribes! Nothing will ever change-be it Iraq, Iran etc etc. We wonder why they kill us and we are trying to help them? Hell-they kill each other!

[Pawel]

But hey - whose fault is it that helicopters built in America are expensive, and you need a degree to fix them? I read you guys telling American companies cannot build simple and reliable trucks and you wonder somebody want to buy simple and reliable choppers?

Dang, in the socialist times you blamed the first secretary when the industry didn't make enough of this or that, or if the meat prices were too high. Some first secretary even ordered the soviet industry to design and build the Mi-17 chopper!

Do you want a free market or not?

Best greetings

Paweł

[Joe Ditchkus]

I did not vote for the Socialist. I still believe in America as the best country in the world.I have been to over 30 Countries and Islands most places were enjoyable to visit and people friendly but I like the U.S. as my home. As far as building good products politics dictates that we and most of the developed world that products that are made are complex to comply with envoirmental rules that were brought about by the greenies. I think some new rules were needed but they are going too far.And yes Pawel I enjoy a free market much better than the controled Socialist one. This is only my opinion which I am allowed and encouraged to have in a free society.Pawel for some reason you seem to put little jabs in about America and how Socialism is better,if I am wrong about this I apologize. Joe D.

[Red Horse]

But hey - whose fault is it that helicopters built in America are expensive, and you need a degree to fix them? I read you guys telling American companies cannot build simple and reliable trucks and you wonder somebody want to buy simple and reliable choppers?

Dang, in the socialist times you blamed the first secretary when the industry didn't make enough of this or that, or if the meat prices were too high. Some first secretary even ordered the soviet industry to design and build the Mi-17 chopper!

Do you want a free market or not?

Best greetings

Paweł

There is probably nothing .."that simple and reliable" in a Mi 17 chopper vs a Sikorsky made in the US or a Mangusta made in Italy. they are all complicated- the point I believe is the Afghans were FAMILIAR with the Mi -17.

My bigger point-don't buy them anything! Not with my hard earned money. History provesthe poit-that part ofthe world is populated by tribes-nothing will ever change them

[mowerman]

But hey - whose fault is it that helicopters built in America are expensive, and you need a degree to fix them? I read you guys telling American companies cannot build simple and reliable trucks and you wonder somebody want to buy simple and reliable choppers?

Dang, in the socialist times you blamed the first secretary when the industry didn't make enough of this or that, or if the meat prices were too high. Some first secretary even ordered the soviet industry to design and build the Mi-17 chopper!

Do you want a free market or not?

Best greetings

Paweł

well what most of us are hoping for here,,,is to go back to the old horsetrade system,,,that seemed to work,,for lotsa years,,,nowadays,,thiers too much corperate,,and government greed ,,such as NIKE,,,with thier sweatshop swish, thats what i call that check mark they use,,,they expect americans to buy thier 100 dollar sneakers,,,but the dont want americans to make them,,at 25 bucks an hour,,,they would rather have 10 year old kids in china do it for 50 cents a day,,,point being thier charging american made prices,,,for china imports,,,and the only one making out are a few crooked corperate hotshots,,,so the china kids are getting screwed,,,and american consumers are overpaying for cheap imports,,and more unnessesary unemployment here,,in other words,,thiers no reason they cant make them here,,,other than corperate greed...bob

[mowerman]

But hey - whose fault is it that helicopters built in America are expensive, and you need a degree to fix them? I read you guys telling American companies cannot build simple and reliable trucks and you wonder somebody want to buy simple and reliable choppers?

Dang, in the socialist times you blamed the first secretary when the industry didn't make enough of this or that, or if the meat prices were too high. Some first secretary even ordered the soviet industry to design and build the Mi-17 chopper!

Do you want a free market or not?

Best greetings

Paweł

oh forgot to finish my point being born and raised here,in the united states,,,most of us a are pissed because for years everything we bought here,,,was made here,,,now most everything we buy,,is imported,,,and doesnt help our economy one bit,,,thiers absolutely no reason for any unemployment here at all,,,everybody should be working and making good money,,,as it once was before ,,,being from poland,,,none of this would make any sence to you,,,the free trade,,open market only benefits a small greedy group,,,the rest of us are not interested at all ,,bob

[Pawel]

Tell you what, I lived in a socialist country for ten first years of my life. That seemed to suck really bad - you couldn't buy nothing, even toilet paper without standing in a looong line. For example getting some paint was so hard, that when you got any, you wasn't picky about the colour, you just bought what was there!

So the people got angry, and the time was right, and Poland - as the first country in the communist block started to take it apart. Now only single countries are left from a system that once reached over half of the world!

And since 1989 we have democracy and free market! Whoa - now you can buy anything you want. You just have to have money - kinda hard if you don't have a job.

I'm lucky as hell - I got a job as an electronics engineer - exactly what I learned to do. But I belong to a small minority on that!

Now Poland is more capitalistic and pro-free-market than countries like Germany or even UK. For all the years after WWII the USA had been a role model for most of the Polish people, but now the trend is slowly stopping. I had a chance to compare Germany to Poland, and I can tell you I like the German approach better - where people care for each other, and don't just go dog-eat-dog, like sometimes happens in Poland, and from I heard, also on these forums, also happens a lot in the USA. Of course a country that puts some kind of pressure to share with others tends to be a PITA - but there's the pressure on citizens to fight for the liberty - that's what we have the democracy for.

One job for the goverment to do is keep the big corporations in check. If it doesn't, who is to keep them from shifting the production to a country where you can employ underpaid children to work seven days a week and make everything dirt cheap for you to import? Like Bob wrote - in the nineties they (the companies) destroyed a lot of nice well paid jobs in USA and Europe, and created ten times more slave-like jobs in third world countries. What happens now is companies, especially banks, got so big, that they can make governments work for them and pass laws that can increase their profits, instead of protecting the people and maling sure everyone is getting an equal chance in life.

So that's how I see it - I don't mean to offend anybody, nor criticize any country. Just trying to understand how the system works and if there's anything to be done about it. And maybe give you another point of view, if you like, of course.

As for the choppers - I researched it a little bit and I can tell you that comparing the newest Sikorsky Blackhawk with a Mi-17 would be like comparing a Granite to an R model (or better a KamAZ truck, because it's Russian, but you probably don't know them babies). Like you don't need a computer to service the Mi-17, just a set of wrenches.

That's a good questions - why buy them anything? But that's asking for trouble, because the next question would be - why pay trillions for a war in a country nobody even heard about? Since that money is already spent, I guess you would like to keep whatever progress there is and protect the investment?

Sorry for the lengthy post - like I said I hope there's no offence taken, because I didn't mean any. Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

[terry]

Well the party line answer will be .."because the Afghans know how to work on the Ruski choppers-too expensive to teach them how to fix a Sikorsky".

Bigger question? why spend a nickel on anything? When will we learn? we are dealing with tribes! Nothing will ever change-be it Iraq, Iran etc etc. We wonder why they kill us and we are trying to help them? Hell-they kill each other!

The last part of this post could not have spoken any better! Our country will never learn. terry

[KECorbin22]

It's all about numbers, When "I am no crook" Nixon went to China in '72, the number guys seen all the people there and the addition went through the roof. Today China has more people that speak English and own cell phones then there are Americans, China has more children with a high IQ then we have children. Why do we trade with China, a communism country, and not with Cuba?? It's the numbers, It does not matter what party gets elected, it is Who is making the profit. One million seconds is 12 days, our current National debt is equal to 34,000 years. If this country had not bail out China, Russia, Germany, Japan and the countries that were on our side, before, during, and after WWII, We would all be talking a different language. The rest of the world really does not like America, even our so called friends, envy US because we have what they will never achieve. The FREEDOM to say I AM AN AMERICAN. I wrote an editorial in '07 stating that the best investment people could make was in ammo and China's money. Was I wrong???

[bullhusk]

But hey - whose fault is it that helicopters built in America are expensive, and you need a degree to fix them? I read you guys telling American companies cannot build simple and reliable trucks and you wonder somebody want to buy simple and reliable choppers?

Dang, in the socialist times you blamed the first secretary when the industry didn't make enough of this or that, or if the meat prices were too high. Some first secretary even ordered the soviet industry to design and build the Mi-17 chopper!

Do you want a free market or not?

Best greetings

Paweł

The point is that it is our money the US tax payin people and the money should be spent on US home grown stuff period! and if we don't keep the US people working to pay tax to the US Gov. then we won't have the money to buy pretzels and hot dogs!

BULLHUSK

[kscarbel]

As for the choppers - I researched it a little bit and I can tell you that comparing the newest Sikorsky Blackhawk with a Mi-17 would be like comparing a Granite to an R model (or better a KamAZ truck, because it's Russian, but you probably don't know them babies). Like you don't need a computer to service the Mi-17, just a set of wrenches.

And that's what it boils down to. The Mi-17 is designed to be abused and neglected, and still fly. When it does break, it's low-tech design can be fixed by amateurs with basic tools (not unlike the AK47). It was specifically designed for harsh operating environments like Afghanistan. And the best part, the hardship of providing after-sales support (and getting paid for it) in Afghanistan falls on the Russians.

[41chevy]

As a person who is happy with my dumb phone and vehicles the need a lot of awareness and driver input, still uses VHS and some DVD's and likes appliances where you turn the knob and flip the switch to use it. I think many things made today are just to "gizmo'd out and too high tech just for tech's sake. Vehicles that stop, stay in the lane and park by them selves. Heads up displays for Text and Email in some cars. We build it like high tech is a showcase of how smart we are.But we forget most of the world wants simple easily repairable things. IWe could fix the M113 we used in Nam with basic tools and a high tech multi meter on the side of the road if needed. Now you need $40,000 in electronic test equipment and a tech. just sayin some times our high tech shoots us in the foot , cause we forget in many places there is no corner technician or satellite link to fix it.

[mowerman]

The point is that it is our money the US tax payin people and the money should be spent on US home grown stuff period! and if we don't keep the US people working to pay tax to the US Gov. then we won't have the money to buy pretzels and hot dogs!

BULLHUSK

ya just another kick in the teeth,,,its like buying girl scout cookies,,from another country,,,because they taste better,,,and telling your daugher,,,sorry i dont care about supporting your troop china cookies,,are more tasty and cheaper to buy,,,besides that...could never figure the logic,,,of keeping us broke,,,they would rather have you cashiering at 7.11 for 8 bucks an hour,,,sending the government 50 bucks a week,in taxes,,,compared to an oilfield hand making 35 bucks an hour sending them 300 a week,in taxes,,thier plan doesnt make any sence to me,,,guess they will figure it out,,,when nobody is working and sending them nothing.hhhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah...last minute comment before i hit the bigroad...bob,

[Pawel]

Bob - but we're talking about many different organizations with different goals here. We've got companies who say - let's move the jobs to Bangladesh, make truckloads of money and don't worry about tomorrow. And we have politicians who say - though it's a pity about the taxes, we've got that nice gentleman, who moved the jobs to Bangladesh and financed our campaign - let's not talk bad about him, next election is comin' and we need more money for the campaign. And who's caring for the country and the hard working people? I guess they're up to themselves on this one.

By the way - we had a joke in Poland, at the time of changing the system. It went: How many people it took to install a light bulb before 1989? Five: One was standing on a table, holding the bulb, and four others were turning the table. How many people does it take after 1989 to install a light bulb? None: Free market does that for them!

Have a nice day

Paweł

[j hancock]

Yup...... Politics are the same throughout the world. Don't be a criminal because the government doesn't like the competition.

It really takes 6 guys on the light bulb because you need a supervisor to tell the 5 guys what to do.

[mowerman]

Yup...... Politics are the same throughout the world. Don't be a criminal because the government doesn't like the competition.

It really takes 6 guys on the light bulb because you need a supervisor to tell the 5 guys what to do.

ya the greedy muslum will tell us to just use candles,,,seems like governments in a lotta lands are turning that was...they just dont care about us at all...bob

Bob - but we're talking about many different organizations with different goals here. We've got companies who say - let's move the jobs to Bangladesh, make truckloads of money and don't worry about tomorrow. And we have politicians who say - though it's a pity about the taxes, we've got that nice gentleman, who moved the jobs to Bangladesh and financed our campaign - let's not talk bad about him, next election is comin' and we need more money for the campaign. And who's caring for the country and the hard working people? I guess they're up to themselves on this one.

By the way - we had a joke in Poland, at the time of changing the system. It went: How many people it took to install a light bulb before 1989? Five: One was standing on a table, holding the bulb, and four others were turning the table. How many people does it take after 1989 to install a light bulb? None: Free market does that for them!

Have a nice day

Paweł

well i appeciate your input,,,seems you got the same problems there...what chaps me most here,,,,i have to work 3 times as hard now,,,as i did when i was 20,,,thats hoew backwards this place has become,,,,and the pigs in power have got it so now they dont have to do anything at all anymore,,,just suck the system,,,and give nothing back...bob

[41chevy]

Yup...... Politics are the same throughout the world. Don't be a criminal because the government doesn't like the competition.

It really takes 6 guys on the light bulb because you need a supervisor to tell the 5 guys what to do.

Seven, a union electrician to turn the switch on and off

[Vladislav]

ya the greedy muslum will tell us to just use candles,,,seems like governments in a lotta lands are turning that was...they just dont care about us at all...bob

well i appeciate your input,,,seems you got the same problems there...what chaps me most here,,,,i have to work 3 times as hard now,,,as i did when i was 20,,,thats hoew backwards this place has become,,,,and the pigs in power have got it so now they dont have to do anything at all anymore,,,just suck the system,,,and give nothing back...bob

Mostly the same way overhere.

There's a lot of Tadjilian and Uzbekian guys who get jobs in construction, street cleaning and other unpopular employes.

Most merchandize made in China or Taiwan.

We still can see many "Made in Russia" things in shops although they are of a low quality and cost expensive in the relation to the 3rd countrie's import ones.

We used to see low quality local made goods but we used to get them 3-4 times cheaper than anything from out of the border. No it's not.

I can say there's a difference with America of people here at previous times lived poorer, now we are able to buy anything we want and many people can do it.

Although it mostly because of extensive oil import wich was provided in Soviet times also but was spent for the army and space technologies.

Nowadays most of the oil input comes into the thing we should call "economics" but really into consumtion. For sure great amount of money goes into power's pockets because of unbeliveble corruption although those guys have to spend alot so a big part reaches others.

Along this process people started to make thier work terrible because many of payed well on different govnt jobs (corrupted) with no need to do things perfect. So when you start to look for any service, for example car/truck repairs you're going to pay alot with no result. You'd be glad to come newer again to that place but you'll get the same anywhere you try. So many people still live not good enough but alot of them should not live as good as they now do.

A little note about choppers.

I haven't heard about that contract for Afghanians (just didn't interested) although there was a talk to buy some of from France for Russian army.

Vlad.