What are the differences between C85, 95, 125?

[joemac]

I was taking some photos and recording the dimensions of physical aspects of a '65 C95 at a firehouse near my sisters' last night.

I was occasionally slightly bothered by a 70 year-old guy who wanted to talk.

As much as I wanted to listen and converse with him, that wasn't why I was there. I had a schedule.

At one point, I asked him ( a self-proclaimed Mack C expert) what the differences were between the various models, 75- 125.

His response was to walk us around to the front of the cab and indicate with his finger where the cab was two+ inches wider on both sides.

My BS meter pegged.

I eventually got his phone number after his numerous offers to help.

He was name-dropping, the dearly departed Harvey being one.

Claimed he had fourteen rigs at one point, down to eight now.

Had the first and second Fox models that originally went to Jersey.

I didn't sleep well. It bugged me.

I called the curator in Allentown, about a 35 minute trip from here.

He explained that it was the drivetrain and pump capacity as well as some other features. The cabs are all identical.

Which is what I believe.

How could this guy get something like that so wrong?

Or, is he right?

[MADDOG93]

No he is not right. it is very simple and you already have it right. The C-85 is the 707C motor with a 750GPM pump, The C-95 has a larger pump[ more discharges ].. at 1,000 GPM with the 707c. The 125 means 1,250 GPM pump. The sheet metal is all the same but can be larger and longer body with a bigger size tank or more compartments but the cabs are all the same, what ever the dept wanted. Each discharge is 250 GPM so a C-85 has 3 discharges, a C-95 has 4 and the C-125 has 5 discharges. Hope this helps.

[39 Baby Mack]

I was taking some photos and recording the dimensions of physical aspects of a '65 C95 at a firehouse near my sisters' last night.

I was occasionally slightly bothered by a 70 year-old guy who wanted to talk.

As much as I wanted to listen and converse with him, that wasn't why I was there. I had a schedule.

At one point, I asked him ( a self-proclaimed Mack C expert) what the differences were between the various models, 75- 125.

His response was to walk us around to the front of the cab and indicate with his finger where the cab was two+ inches wider on both sides.

My BS meter pegged.

I eventually got his phone number after his numerous offers to help.

He was name-dropping, the dearly departed Harvey being one.

Claimed he had fourteen rigs at one point, down to eight now.

Had the first and second Fox models that originally went to Jersey.

I didn't sleep well. It bugged me.

I called the curator in Allentown, about a 35 minute trip from here.

He explained that it was the drivetrain and pump capacity as well as some other features. The cabs are all identical.

Which is what I believe.

How could this guy get something like that so wrong?

Or, is he right?

What are you talking about "the dearly departed Harvey"?????

Ron

[fxfymn]

Surely not Harvey Eckart. He is alive and still writing and as knowledgeable about Mack's as anyone.

[MADDOG93]

I didn't want to touch that[Harvey] because I just sent him some photos.

[joemac]

Well, to use the popular vernacular, "my bad".

I thought I'd read that the esteemed Mr. Eckart had passed a few years ago.

The way the self-proclaimed expert spoke the other night, it seemed he referred to him in the past tense, also.

My sincerest apologies.

Talk about starting off on the wrong foot...

At any rate, thanks for the explanation.

I was aware that the body dimensions were a variable among rigs and I was nearly certain that the cabs were the same, excepting the open-cab models differing from the canopy cabs.

[Doug Maney]

Wait until Harvey hears this! He'll get a kick out of it.

[bulldogboy]

Just for the record, the number of 2.5" discharges is not always indicative of the pump size. My department's "B-85F"s were 750 GPM but were spec'd with 4 discharges, 2 on each side.

That's the thing about fire apparatus, while they may look similar, everybody spec'd them differently.

bulldogboy

[1958 F.W.D.]

I just swapped emails with Harvey right before Christmas, I am sure he will be amused to know that he is supposed to be pushing up daisies.

Hey joemac, I see that you are in SE Pa. I am originally from Montgomery County. I have a sneaking suspicion I know where you were and who the self-proclaimed "expert" was......I am dying to know.....Care to share with us? Or you could even private message me.......Inquiring minds want to know!!!!

[yarnall]

Welcome to the forum joemac. Glad to hear Harvey is still alive. Lets see those pictures you took. I also live in SE. PA(Boyertown). Do you have any trucks? Mike

[joemac]

I'm near Morgantown, and also very glad to learn that Harvey is still with us.

The only 'truck' I have is a '95 Isuzu Rodeo that I inherited from my son.

Six-cylinder, four wheel drive, not what I'm used to. I'm looking to sell it.

The photos were limited to details of items, such as ladder racks and latches, construction items; boring stuff.

Edited January 11, 2014 by joemac

[Mack458]

Joemac, some of the B-125s had a longer hood and radiator area to fit a Hall Scott motor for the increased pump capacity. Not many B125s were built to my understanding.

[VALS327]

Hello,

My heart sank when you mentioned Harvey and then I realized he sent me an email several hours before I red your post.

In reference to the C Model Cabs its been my experience that the early ones from Sidney Ohio are slightly different. The drivers seat is mounted on a box frame that extends from the passenger side. as seen on page 24 of Harvey's C Model book. later cabs the box was used to mount the passenger side seat bottom and the drivers seat was mounted on a pedestal. The rear sliding window on the earlier cabs was attached to the cab itself while the Allentown cabs the rear sliding window is attached to the canopy section. The first cabs also had framework and a skin under the headlights which was not visible because the front bumper covered it. This was deleted early on during production and a piece of triangle shaped flat metal was added for support. The panel that the rear of the dog house on the Ohio cabs slightly differs also. They were made of a large sheet of sheet metal with a wire mesh covered opening leading to the pump area. The opening on later cabs was just an open space and the framework was also different.

Other changes were mainly cosmetic such as the dash cluster of the Ohio cabs were finished with a different metal then the Allentown cabs. The defroster on the Ohio cabs were mounted to the center post between the windshields while the Allentown cabs had slots in the dash located by the window. The head liner in the Ohio Cabs I believe were mesh with a thin layer of foam attached while the Allentown cabs had a one piece pre formed piece of fiberglass. The location of the switches on the dash was also slightly different and an obvious change was the headlights. I can not put my finger on when all of these changes were made. I do believe that some of the early cabs produced in Allentown carried over some of the Ohio features and were changed to its final configuration by 1961/62.

In reference to the wider cab. I have heard from a reputable source that there were two different size windshields for the C Model. Its my opinion that the cabs were the same width but the earlier Ohio cabs may have had a larger space on the post located between the windshields. After looking at C model windshields they appear to be reversible.

The C85 is a 750 gpm, the C95 is 1,000 gpm, and the C125 is a 1,250 GPM when referring to a pumper. all three of these came standard with the ENF 707B/C. After 1960 there was an option for an ENDTF 673. With this option came the oil bath air cleaner and a tachometer on the dash. You could add the oil bath air cleaner and dash tachometer to the rigs with the ENF 707B/C. The Vin for a C85 with the 707B/C would read as follows C85F XXXX. The C indicates the model, the 85 indicates the pump size, and the F indicates fire line. If the rig was a diesel then the Vin would read C85FD XXXX. The D indicates Diesel. The last four numbers are the production number in the run for the series.

There were several other odd ball models with low production numbers C505, C75, and the C21. The C505 had a 500 gpm pump with the ENF464A or ENF540 engines. The C75F was 750 gpm with the ENF464A or ENF540 engines. The C21 was 1000 GPM or larger with the Hall Scott motor.

Sorry for going on so long with my post I hope I was able to clear things up. The information in my post is based on my observations and information from Harvey's book on the Mack C Model.

Don

Edited January 11, 2014 by VALS327

[joemac]

Thanks for that. Interesting about the construction differences.

The model I'm making is to be based on the Sidney cab. It would be great if I could be reunited with the old '59, even just to get some critical detail pics.

Maybe I can track 'er down.

I have two of Harvey's books and nowhere does it actually explain the differences.

Not slighting the books, it's probably just common knowledge that I was unaware of.

Apparently, there are others...

Edited January 11, 2014 by joemac

[609albert]

Don ,you are the authority on the C models ,I meet you at the summer convention in n.j. , I'm still looking for a R model pumper to go with my LS85 . Al from n.j.

[yarnall]

The is an R tanker in eBay.

[609albert]

yes ,I saw it looks kind of beat and I would like a good fire body with it, not many around.

[1958 F.W.D.]

If thats the same R "tanker" I am looking at Mike, I wouldnt touch that thing with a 10 foot pole. That rig started out in life as a 1000 pumper with a 500 tank. What do you want to bet they didn't change out the rear suspension and drive when they added the extra weight of 500 more gallons of water plus the stainless tank and everything else? I bet that thing is BEAT.

[fxfymn]

I can't help but wonder if the slightly different C models from Ohio are in fact left over chassis from Ahrens-Fox. A-F delivered 3(??) "C" models before their owner, Beck, was bought out by Mack for their bus and fire truck line. The C is the only fire truck Mack ever built that was not based on another Mack chassis as it was a "pirated" design from A-F.

I know the first A-F "C" models was delivered to a company in NJ and I believe is in the hands of a collector.

[609albert]

just wondering if BECK built the Cinninatti cab.

[fxfymn]

I don't believe so since the "Cincinnati" cab was produced by Truck Cab Manufacturers in Cincinnati, OH. They have been in business since 1948 and they still make fire truck cabs.