Cat's and Dogs

[Bullheaded]

Was at a big industry show today. Went over to the Caterpillar rep to rib him. Asked how they like those Cummins parts on their Cat engines, that are really Maxxfarces.

I asked if the rumours are true of Cat's return to the on road truck engine business. He said he can't say, but winked and nodded his head. Said there will be a big announcement in about 18 months. Also said they are breaking their ties with International as the partnership didn't really work out, but they own the rights to that Paystar cab, so they are going to build their own truck under it.

But he didn't say any of this.

Doesn't sound like we will get M-drive in vocational trucks yet either. The Allison deal has been extended. Said they can install one in a Granite if a customer REALLY wanted one, but they have to get lots of approvals, even from Allison.

[Red Horse]

Was at a big industry show today. Went over to the Caterpillar rep to rib him. Asked how they like those Cummins parts on their Cat engines, that are really Maxxfarces.

I asked if the rumours are true of Cat's return to the on road truck engine business. He said he can't say, but winked and nodded his head. Said there will be a big announcement in about 18 months. Also said they are breaking their ties with International as the partnership didn't really work out, but they own the rights to that Paystar cab, so they are going to build their own truck under it.

But he didn't say any of this.

Doesn't sound like we will get M-drive in vocational trucks yet either. The Allison deal has been extended. Said they can install one in a Granite if a customer REALLY wanted one, but they have to get lots of approvals, even from Allison.

IMO, they should stick to what they know best. Wonder how Cat figures they own the "rights to the Paystar cab" How about..."they own rights to the ugly hood"

[mackdaddy]

I like this one!!!!!!!!

[j hancock]

Navistar may be so cash strapped that they did a deal for the cab??? But why? Ugly in my eyes.

If CAT is really going to get back into the truck market, start with a new cab! They sold a ton of motors to the boys running PACCAR products so make a really nice cab to get them interested.

[41180]

The Psystar cab is a nice cab its the hood of the cat ct truck that is ugly. An international 9900 has the same cab as a cat truck but has the long classic hood I'm surprise cat didn't make a long nose classic truck to compete with Pete and kw

[41180]

Another question I have about cat trucos is i saw on truckpaper.com a bunch of new 2014 cat ct660 trucks for sale in Kentucky with 550 hp 15 liter engines. I didn't think that they were making cat 15 liter engines anymore ? So are these Cummins Isx15 engines or is cat putting c15 motors in there trucks and paying a EPA fine?

[MackMann85]

I doubt that either of the things the CAT guy said are true. Their name is mud with all the truck makers out there. As for the cab, they probably own the rights to the interior they redid. I just dont see them investing in a new design....maybe they could try the current truck with their own, real CAT engine. That might be worth something.

I think some Navistar/CAT 15Ls snuck out at the end of 13 as 14 model years. Very small number. Probably cant sell them becasue the 15L project was killed off and suffers from all the same issues as the other Maxxfart engines.

[james j neiweem]

Seems like Cat could seel to Cat, Paccar or Navistar Maybee Volvo. Not Mack Shaker or wesern star.

Why not ford pick ups and mediums or GMC's. A litle kitty in a ferd pickum up would be sweet. Might send Fiat/Dodge packing.

[slpwlker]

I've heard that coal or mining trucks are a complete different animal with emmisions.

[Bullheaded]

Logtruckman....that 15L is the C15 with Int/MAN fuel and air systems. It is discontinued, so those are the mass egr left overs. The Int. and Cat people told me they can't give them away. People don't want a discontinued engine.

Cat was supposed to get three truck models and two engines out of that deal....but now they have one truck, one engine. And now they're even more unhappy because that 13L has Cummins emissions system on it.

[Bobby j]

Never knew cat had anything to do with the NAVSTAR max force engine.......I worked on them at ups freight.....one of the sorriest engines ever seen.........trucks and engines where so bad NAVSTAR bought back the 2010 tractors we had......bobby j.

[kscarbel2]

Never knew cat had anything to do with the NAVSTAR max force engine.......I worked on them at ups freight.....one of the sorriest engines ever seen.........trucks and engines where so bad NAVSTAR bought back the 2010 tractors we had......bobby j.

The more common MaxxForce 11 and 13 are license-built German MAN D20s and D26s. Only the MaxxForce 15 was CAT related (C15).

The "Massive EGR" (EGR levels from 35% to 50%) emissions system used on the MaxxForce 11, 13 and 15 was Navistar-designed. MAN and CAT merely provided the basic engine.

The MAN-designed Euro-5 EGR engines in the global market performed very well. MAN went with SCR for Euro-6 (near EPA2010).

[Bullheaded]

That's why I was very disappointed the Maxx didn't work out......as you say, the MAN version did very well. I figured they had a winner with MAN behind them. I guess they just pushed the EGR too far??

Any word on how they are doing now with the Cummins SCR on them?

[Dirtymilkman]

Navistar could go broke for all I care. The shit they pulled on the other truck makers and on the epa was bad business. Why aren't they responsible for the money they cost everyone else in lawsuits? Because they didn't wanna run scr their way of selling it is lawsuits? F navistar!

[kscarbel2]

Navistar could go broke for all I care. The shit they pulled on the other truck makers and on the epa was bad business. Why aren't they responsible for the money they cost everyone else in lawsuits? Because they didn't wanna run scr their way of selling it is lawsuits? F navistar!

When we talk about Navistar and their failed EGR strategy for EPA2010, there is much more to the story that needs to be said. Navistar didn't pull anything on the EPA. In fact, they were working together.

Let's start at the beginning, about 15 years ago, at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The EPA’s engineers were developing a Heavy to Massive EGR strategy which they named “Clean Diesel Combustion” (CDC).

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/420f04023.pdf

The EPA first mentioned CDC in 2000. FEV Engine Technology (www.fev.com) was behind the scenes under contract to the EPA doing the actual development.

Of course the EPA didn’t invent EGR. European truckmakers introduced EGR on Euro-4 engines in 2004. Both MAN and Scania went on to offer EGR in their Euro-5 (EPA2007) engines without any issues (they also offered SCR – giving customers a choice).

Why is the EPA involved in the design of emissions technology? This is the business of the private sector engine manufacturers and companies like Eberspaecher and Johnson Matthey that engaged in the development and production of emissions reducing components.

Clean Diesel Combustion (CDC) technology began to take form and be appreciated as we were looking for alternative paths to support the EPA’s heavy duty 2007 rules. We were looking for combustion approaches that enabled the engine to exhaust the combustion products with engine-out NO_x emissions at or below a 0.2 g/bhp/hr level at every point where the engine was required to operate.

This NO_x emissions target is the ultimate level of the HD 2007 standard, and will be required for HD engines sold after 2010.

—David Haugen, EPA Advanced Technology Division, at DEER 2004

The EPA team (thru FEV Engine Technology) discovered that it could handle NO_x in-cylinder to a sufficient extent, without relying on aftertreatments, by reducing oxygen concentration to manage the oxidation (combustion) of the fuel in the diffusion flame region of the cylinder. Since NO_x is formed at high temperatures as a byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion, the EPA sought to keep the local temperature below critical NO_x formation threshold—around 2,100°K (1,827°C or 3,320°F), thus largely preventing NO_x formation.

A few months after announcing their EGR technology (“Clean Diesel Combustion”), the EPA and Navistar formed a “partnership” in 2004 in which Navistar would get to test the CDC (EGR) technology on their engines.

Navistar went on to license the EPA’s EGR technology and put it into production. But while the EPA’s EGR solution worked for EPA2007 (as did everyone else’s although some clearly better than others), Navistar’s endeavor to further refine CDC to meet EPA2010 was a failure.

http://www.epa.gov/oms/technology/420f04036.pdf

The EPA gave Navistar prejudiced support all the way to the end when they got in trouble for it when in June 2012, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ruled there wasn't sufficient justification for the EPA to disregard its normal rules and allow Navistar to pay $2,000 for every heavy truck engine that failed to comply with EPA2010 emissions.

[Dirtymilkman]

Navistar should not have tried to get the epa to say scr was no good. Navistar said that trucks can still run without DEF fluid in them. They can run without it, except they can only go 5 mph. They KNEW their product was shitty, trucks wouldn't even make it to the dealers from the factory without being towed in. A head mechanic of a fleet of 200 told me that for every 10 only 4 were decent at best. Needless to say they went freightliner.

[kscarbel2]

Navistar should not have tried to get the epa to say scr was no good. Navistar said that trucks can still run without DEF fluid in them. They can run without it, except they can only go 5 mph. They KNEW their product was shitty, trucks wouldn't even make it to the dealers from the factory without being towed in. A head mechanic of a fleet of 200 told me that for every 10 only 4 were decent at best. Needless to say they went freightliner.

I don't disagree with you.

Speaking of the MAN D20 and D26 (MaxxForce 11 & 13), while MAN could only take EGR to Euro-5, former Navistar CEO Dan Ustian arrogantly thought his people could reach Euro-6 (EPA2010).

I'm simply pointing out the role that the EPA played in Navistar's EGR technology, as many don't know.

[DailyDiesel]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If Navistar's EGR had worked it would have been huge for them. No DEF fluid need every. Money in your pocket. The engines would sell themselves. Unfortunately, from what I've read, Ustain thought if he muscled his engineers and technical staff around enough they could make the impossible possible. Now he is gone and Navistar is fighting to just hang out to what is left. God only knows what foreign company will swoop and take them over.

LOL, maybe Cat will change their minds and just buy Navistar outright.

[bullhusk]

ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS THAT IF CAT GOES BACK INTO THE TRUCK ENGINE BUSINESS THEN THEY SHOULD CLEAN UP ALL THE ACERT STUFF THAT THEY LEFT USE WITH! i STILL HAVE THREE LEFT THAT NO DEALER WANTS ON TRADE UNLESS THEY GIVE YOU NOTHIN FOR THEM! I ALREADY POWER GLIDERED ONE OUT AN THE OTHER 3 ARE ON THE DRAWING BOARD TO BE DONE NEXT YEAR. I AM SORRY I BOUGHT THOSE FARGON ENGINES BUT I LISTENED TO THE CAT SALES GUY TELLIN ME HOW BAD THE DETROIT IS GONNA BE WITH EGR AND HOW MUCH BETTER I WOULD BE WITH CATS TWO STAGE INJECTOR AND TWIN TURBOS WOULD BE, WHAT HE FORGOT TO TELL ME WAS THAT I WOULD BE GRTTIN 2-3 MPG AND THE TURBOS ARE 5 GRAND APIECE!! AND THE TOP END WOUND UP ON THE GROUND AFTER ABOUT 50,000 MI!!

BULLHUSK

[mackdaddy]

I am sticking with the DOG over the CAT..........but I sure wish that the CAT would have bought the DOG. Just think of the V8 we would have today! but you know what they say wish in one hand and S)#& in the other.

[mackdaddy]

I am sticking with the DOG over the CAT..........but I sure wish that the CAT would have bought the DOG. Just think of the V8 we would have today! but you know what they say wish in one hand and S)#& in the other.

[mackdaddy]

I am sticking with the DOG over the CAT..........but I sure wish that the CAT would have bought the DOG. Just think of the V8 we would have today! but you know what they say wish in one hand and S)#& in the other.

[rsb502]

Was at a big industry show today. Went over to the Caterpillar rep to rib him. Asked how they like those Cummins parts on their Cat engines, that are really Maxxfarces.

I asked if the rumours are true of Cat's return to the on road truck engine business. He said he can't say, but winked and nodded his head. Said there will be a big announcement in about 18 months. Also said they are breaking their ties with International as the partnership didn't really work out, but they own the rights to that Paystar cab, so they are going to build their own truck under it.

But he didn't say any of this.

Doesn't sound like we will get M-drive in vocational trucks yet either. The Allison deal has been extended. Said they can install one in a Granite if a customer REALLY wanted one, but they have to get lots of approvals, even from Allison.

From what I keep hearing an M Drive in a vocational truck would be a bad idea anyway, the whole zero tolerance single countershaft thing isnt as great as they claim, you cant rebuild it. I have talked to a couple guys that said they drove nice in road trucks but when there is a problem, any problem you pretty much HAVE to swap the trans out, that would get really expensive after the warranty ran out. If a vocational truck is so hard on dual countershaft Eatons that they wear out faster a single countershaft Volvo trans doesnt stand a chance. i have a friend that just bought a new Granite, MP7 405, Allison 4500, Mack 4.19 rears, he loves it, says it runs better than the 3 other Etech Macks he has and gets the same or better mileage to boot. I think that torque converter and smooth clutchless power delivery is the key tpo their success in vocational trucks and buses, pretty much every bus built for the past 20 years and most garbage trucks have Allisons, lets not even talk about the military (if they cant kill em weekly nobody can).