Help with 2015 613 spec (Pinnacle)

[LSI]

I'm cleaning up specs on new truck for dealer.I run midwest to southeast.62mph,dry van drop and hook,30% of loads are 79500#.Looking at 445hp with M-Drive.Would like to get 8mpg but 7.5 would be ok.3 gearings have been mentioned,2:66 with single o.d.,2:66 direct,3:08 with single o.d..Tyson driver is running 2:66 direct and getting 8mpg at 65mph.When I talked to him he was at 1550rpm's.That must be around 65 to 68mph.

[rsb502]

Well you get more rear wheel torque with direct drive, any overdrive reduces rear wheel torque and so therefore you have a shot of best mpg with direct but the higher gears are easier to damage and you lose bottom end takeoff. Running near gross you will appreciate the lower 1st gear with an overdrive transmission and its unlikely youll ever notice much difference in mileage out of a controlled test setting. If you were running closer to 40,000-50,000# all the time a higher low wont matter as much so the direct would give you decent service. If your not set on the M Drive and want to get the best of both worlds go with a Mack 318LR or 313LR, or even an Eaton 18 speed transmission there youll get a lower low gear to get you moving near gross so you can still run the higher rear gears and when you pop it into OD your gonna really drop rpm. Have you decided against the super econodyne option? Mack has alreay done the homework if you go with the Super Econodyne Pinnacle and you should get the best possible mpg with that set up.

[LSI]

Super Dog:Dealer in Canada said his customers got better fuel with the 445C,but they run heavier than we do.Plan is to go through Mack leasing with 4yr trade cycle.Local dealer was looking at 3:08 single o.d.

[rsb502]

You have to take tire size, transmission ratio and gear ratio into account to get your cruise rpm. I run 1450rpm at 70 in the RW with 11R24.5 tires and 3.65 rears. With the E9 that's about the best economy, somewhere from 1400-1500rpm, any less it lugs and uses more fuel, still pulls hard just uses more fuel to do it. I watch the boost and pyrometer more than anything and rolling into the throttle under 1400 you can watch it climb, around 1500 the pyro stays under 900, its burning the fuel more efficiently because it has more air.

[rsb502]

There have been on other guys on here that really liked the 445 too, seems to be a good spec, just gotta get the rpm in the sweet spot and with an eaton or Mack 13 or 18 you can split a gear and keep it there easier than a 9-12 speed but with the m drive they say you can get better mileage. If you could get em to put in an Allison TCS10 you'd be set, that torque converter would make it niiiice.

[LSI]

You have to take tire size, transmission ratio and gear ratio into account to get your cruise rpm. I run 1450rpm at 70 in the RW with 11R24.5 tires and 3.65 rears. With the E9 that's about the best economy, somewhere from 1400-1500rpm, any less it lugs and uses more fuel, still pulls hard just uses more fuel to do it. I watch the boost and pyrometer more than anything and rolling into the throttle under 1400 you can watch it climb, around 1500 the pyro stays under 900, its burning the fuel more efficiently because it has more air.

Tire size will be 295/75 22.5.From your post it looks like direct will do the job.I think the M-Drive has a lower ratio on 1st gear.

[Mackdaddy2030]

Yes, 1st gear ratio is lower with the direct drive. So is reverse.

Sorry that it is sideways

[Mackdaddy2030]

Well I guess the were right side up.

I just bought a '12 with 445 and M drive direct with 2.64. It's not a bad Trans, but wish I held put for the Allison. It does not shift as smooth and pulling the tank I notice. And it's hard to get use to the shift points. Though others I talk to love the TRANS. I'll have to wait and see how I like it pulling the dump and belt trailer.

[rsb502]

Eaton 18 speed is 14.40 low, .73 OD, Mack 318LR 16.42low, .71od.

[rsb502]

Eaton 18 speed is 14.40 low, .73 OD, Mack 318LR 16.42low, .71od. I'm not gonna tell somebody not to get an auto, however a clutched auto shift is not the smoothest at low speeds and off road and remember that with an M drive/I shift there is a 0 shaft endplay measurement so they pretty much can't be repaired they always have to be replaced.

[rsb502]

Id much rater have an Allison TCS10 if Mack would build it but like a granite with a decent sleeper or a CHU with a heaviest front axle for heavy haul work, they just refuse to. Really stupid considering they have all the parts and won't put them together, but its one more way to limit Macks market share. If you want a KW W900£L with a 70" sleeper and a 20k steer axle they say ok, same with Pete, freightliner and Volvo but not Mack they just say we can't do that.

[james j neiweem]

F!!!!!!!!K Vo_)(*&^%$#@lvo!!!!!!!! IMHO of course. Why not let Mack management make decisions for Mack. Volvo can always use the Obama pen.

[Mackpro]

Make sure you order the Horton 2-speed fan clutch , unless you like changing the monster Borg Warner Cool Logic fan clutch every year and a half.

[cxn613]

just changed our cool logic a few months ago and pulled the radiator to do it. Can it be done with out pulling radiator? and also can it be converted over to Horton clutch

[Mackpro]

just changed our cool logic a few months ago and pulled the radiator to do it. Can it be done with out pulling radiator? and also can it be converted over to Horton clutch

Yes and yes. We just lean the radiator forwards about 5 inches and pull fan and fan clutch together. On the Horton website has the changover parts. Our horton rep comes by our dealership about every 6 months and updates info and parts . Your local dealership should have the info.

[cxn613]

Ok thanks, I'll keep that in mind for next time.

[LSI]

I am still working on this. I'm stuck with 2:64 single o.d. vs 2:64 direct.I talked to a Tyson driver that said he was getting 8mpg.He thought it was a direct because he passed me at 65 to 68mph and tach was at 1550rpm.He runs heavy,80000#.I would like to know how Tyson specs there Macks.I run 62 to 65 mph at 79000 95% of time I may be running 25000# in future.If Freightliner is using 2:50 12spd direct,how would the 2:54 m-drive do?

[bbigrig]

We have been over this before a few times....have we not???? Just keep in mind the faster the rear end/direct drive trans combo, the more torque you are putting on the drive line and rear end.

445C is the way to go and remember, us Canadian guys hauling on US turf haul the same weights you guys do.

8.3mpg hauling 80,000GVW usually down to the Mid-west US from Ontario, Can.

445C-13 fullerOD 355 Eaton rears on 22.5. That spec for us is best because it could be hauling US 80k GVW 4 days of the week and 110k GVW here in Canada the next.

Buy the truck already...LOL....if you are leasing it for 4 years tweak the spec on the next one if it doesn't do what you want this round.

I do need to ask, Have you driven an M-drive with a load yet? I have and wasn't that impressed... especially on decels at lights where the clutch doesn't disengage or doesnt down shift/decel and it feels like you are stopping not only the load behind you but a truck that is still under power. I've heard horror stories of the first version I-shifts and there clutch solenoids not disengaging. Drivers having to push the brake pedal through the floor to stop from running into the back of a car. Over $4000 dollars premium on the purchase price and another hit on the trade in value....yes, in the thousands again$$$$$. Ask yourself...high drivetrain torque, expensive option, low trade in value....Why would you go M-drive?? Are going to save that much in fuel???

[rsb502]

Instill think your Gearing it too high, you get the rpm too low with your 2.56 rears and you'll lug and it won't pull for shit and fuel mileage will suck. Ask guys here what they are running and go with that. I also don't like the m drive but more for the "0" tolerance internals that will make the trans unrepairable only replaceable for a premium fee. I like bbigrigs set up of the MP8 445C, 13 speed 3.55 rears, only change I would make is low pro 24.5 rubber.

[j_martell]

I don't have much to add here, other than the eaton 18speed is the best transmission I have ever run.....a gear for EVERYTHING.....though I have zero experience with the autos/amts. Are the mack and eaton 18's geared similar?

[LSI]

We have been over this before a few times....have we not???? Just keep in mind the faster the rear end/direct drive trans combo, the more torque you are putting on the drive line and rear end.

445C is the way to go and remember, us Canadian guys hauling on US turf haul the same weights you guys do.

8.3mpg hauling 80,000GVW usually down to the Mid-west US from Ontario, Can.

445C-13 fullerOD 355 Eaton rears on 22.5. That spec for us is best because it could be hauling US 80k GVW 4 days of the week and 110k GVW here in Canada the next.

Buy the truck already...LOL....if you are leasing it for 4 years tweak the spec on the next one if it doesn't do what you want this round.

I do need to ask, Have you driven an M-drive with a load yet? I have and wasn't that impressed... especially on decels at lights where the clutch doesn't disengage or doesnt down shift/decel and it feels like you are stopping not only the load behind you but a truck that is still under power. I've heard horror stories of the first version I-shifts and there clutch solenoids not disengaging. Drivers having to push the brake pedal through the floor to stop from running into the back of a car. Over $4000 dollars premium on the purchase price and another hit on the trade in value....yes, in the thousands again$$$$$. Ask yourself...high drivetrain torque, expensive option, low trade in value....Why would you go M-drive?? Are going to save that much in fuel???

bbigrig;Is the 13 OD a double OD?I talked to a Mack salesman up there that said you were getting better mpg with the 445C than the 445SE.Some fleets have told me that they're getting .5 better with the M-Drive.I need to test drive one to get better idea.Every one I talked to at truck stops down here loves the M-Drive.I'm running a 9200IH now with 13 double OD,3:55,ISX 525 hp,1850 in top gears.We are also looking at Freightliner.The Mack is several thousand cheaper which surprised me.Boss is trying to get a 4 year lease.Several fleets in central Iowa are running 445SE,M-Drive single OD and 2:64 rears.not sure on their mpg.I like your input.

[bbigrig]

I don't have much to add here, other than the eaton 18speed is the best transmission I have ever run.....a gear for EVERYTHING.....though I have zero experience with the autos/amts. Are the mack and eaton 18's geared similar?

A 13 speed is a castrated 18 speed. pretty much the same gear steps only with an 18 you can split both ranges.

Mack 18's and Fullers are close but depending on the version of either Mack or Fuller you can get some weird gear combo's. I've got a T2180 with a serious low range reverse gear that is comparable to the 12 speed (TRTXL1070B) deep reduction reverse. When its in high range reverse its like a normal low range reverse on a Fuller.

The BIG difference with a Mack 18 versus a Fuller is the Mack won't last as long or take as much abuse....And will cost more to repair......

[bbigrig]

bbigrig;Is the 13 OD a double OD?I talked to a Mack salesman up there that said you were getting better mpg with the 445C than the 445SE.Some fleets have told me that they're getting .5 better with the M-Drive.I need to test drive one to get better idea.Every one I talked to at truck stops down here loves the M-Drive.I'm running a 9200IH now with 13 double OD,3:55,ISX 525 hp,1850 in top gears.We are also looking at Freightliner.The Mack is several thousand cheaper which surprised me.Boss is trying to get a 4 year lease.Several fleets in central Iowa are running 445SE,M-Drive single OD and 2:64 rears.not sure on their mpg.I like your input.

If I remember correctly there is no longer a non automated 13 speed Fuller transmission that doesn't have a double overdrive (usually .86 first split and .73 final split) Second last hole in high split is 1:1 gearing. Sure the M-drive is great and if you guys are planning on leasing the trucks you won't have as much exposure to issues or costs related to an older or trade in value M-drive. Currently I am waiting till late 2016 before we purchase anything new from Mack. Late 2016 is the possible release of the new Cab and sleeper. SE is Super Econodyne which is only available with the M-Drive. Did you talk to my Salesman in Stoney Creek? He would probably steer you the same way I would.

Our Combo is running 1350RPM at 100km/h

[bbigrig]

Instill think your Gearing it too high, you get the rpm too low with your 2.56 rears and you'll lug and it won't pull for shit and fuel mileage will suck. Ask guys here what they are running and go with that. I also don't like the m drive but more for the "0" tolerance internals that will make the trans unrepairable only replaceable for a premium fee. I like bbigrigs set up of the MP8 445C, 13 speed 3.55 rears, only change I would make is low pro 24.5 rubber.

Lo -pro 24.5 adds weight to the truck. 24.5 tires low pro or normal are becoming rare in Canada. there is no benefit to using that wheel and tire size here. All a 24.5 wheel does up here is add more weight to the chassis. (More steel or alum. to the wheel) 22.5 does just fine.

[rsb502]

10-4 bbig, a lot of folks are going to 22.5's round here too. The 11r22.5 on an Alcoa wheel vs a low pro 24.5 on an alcoa is the same height 42" and the 24.5 is actually 2.6# lighter by the books,lol. I always liked the 42" tall tire but the shorter sidewall on the 24.5 seems more stable to me, just personal preference really. On the subject of the Eaton 13 speed being a double od, well its not what you think. The term double od came from way back when some mechanics did gear flips to trucks to get the top two gears to be od, creating a .73 8th and .62 9th, the hi-lo split on the side of the shifter is actuality an underdrive or deep reduction back box. When your in hi on the splitter the gear ratios are the same as the 9 speed used to make up the 13, when you split it to lo your actually putting that gear thru a real reduction. Back box the get a half gear step. The Eaton low is 12.44 I think and the od is .73, the mack is also 12 something but .71 od so a little higher on top, the mack 313/318LR have 16.42 lo and .71 od.