MP8 injector cups

[Kingdirt]

10-4 Challenger. Back a month or so ago, I replaced that Diff sensor. One of the first suspects. Ive pulled those hoses, AND disconnected from the plugs, and blown air thru them. It passes thru no problem, but I always wonder if theres a little rock, or piece of debris in there that lets the air go thru, but still throw the pressure enough to kick it into regen. I have heard it happens at VERY little pressure difference.

Im putting things back together today, My egr cooler was taken down to a local shop to be cleaned, and they just called and said its ready. I just dont have the space or tools to do it myself. I have a brand new pipe going on behind the injector, new exhaust gaskets all the way back to the DPF, 7th injector cleaned again, and new gasket/seal. Nothing really stood out, other than that pipe being completely destroyed. I cant believe transport Equip in Missoula replaced my flex pipe, directly behind this one, and never noticed it was rotted through, but hey, It was wrapped in heat tape.

One other glaringly odd thing I found,....... Mack Techs encouraged to chime in, PLEASE. Below My DPF filter, in the bottom piece of that assembly, There is a hole. If you drop the WHOLE DPF, top piece, catalyst, filter, and bottom piece, and set it on the ground there is a plate/bracket welded to the bottom, that keeps it from just wobbling over on its side. Well, when we got it off, I noticed soot coming out of under that plate. And after looking inside, there IS a hole going thru it. I believe, it may have had a plug? or been epoxied over? Kinda like a relief valve in case Backpressure gets to high? Am I way off base, or did someone just drill a hole in the thing somewhere down the road? TEC has had this thing in, and all taken apart, when they cleaned my filter, and they never said anything about it, But it does seem like I saw it once, and it had some kinda brownish gunk in it. I dont know, maybe its supposed to be there, to drain liquid, but it HAS to affect the pressure in the bottom half of the assembly.

Fingers crossed,.. Ill be firing it up in a few hours.

[Mackpro]

I had 3 Tyson trucks in a row with bad camshafts, This would cause that cylinder to have so much unburned fuel that it was starting uneeded passive regens when the soot ratio was very low. However if you soot ratio was high, if the EGR diff sensor ports are clogged or sensor bad ,the ECM is seeing low pressure/flow. The ECM opens up the EGR valve farther to get the pressure /flow up to specs. This can clog/soot up your DPF in 50-80 miles.

[Challenger]

How big is the hole? There are no relief valves for backpressure. Ive seen a filter so plugged the truck wouldnt start.

[Marcel67]

Wait! thats not the MOST frustrating thing.. I did pay cash for a 2 year/ 200,000 mile 3rd party warranty, too. So far, nothing has been covered,. Engine, Transmission, Turbo, and differentials only. NO DPF or exhaust coverage at all. What a NOOB I am, I probably deserve this.....

I made the same mistake. Cancel that Insurrance and get your money back. Injector cups failed not covered oil cooler failure not covered and do can o go on and on

[Mackdaddy2030]

I have a '12 and would love to do a delete, but not sure about what all the repercussions are if you get caught or if a dealer will turn you in if you need service.

[jcalesan]

I'm new to the forum but extremely knowledgeable about the injectors and cups. Especially on 2011 models to current with MP8 /D13. I have 38 pinnacles. There is no cure for the problem. There have only been very minor attempts at improvements. . The problem is really not copper or stainless or even installation. Most MV techs and service managers know the problem exists but no one including the engineers have a good handle on the reason for failure. MV has blamed the problem on everything from dirt getting in the tanks thru uncovered tank vents to fuel and fuel pressure related to the current emissions requirements. There has been 10 releases of updated injectors claiming that the newest injector and cup is the cure but ultimately it's not. The only protection for the one truck owner or a fleet is to spend the money and buy an extended warranty.if your hard to start, have a cut out miss between 12 and 1400 rpm's,and no codes, it's injectors...... other than injectors,minor VGT turbo calibration issues and some other PITA sensors, the trucks are good.

Now the good news. MV is releasing a common rail fuel system in 2017 ( not model year 2017).

[1965]

I'm new to the forum but extremely knowledgeable about the injectors and cups. Especially on 2011 models to current with MP8 /D13. I have 38 pinnacles. There is no cure for the problem. There have only been very minor attempts at improvements. . The problem is really not copper or stainless or even installation. Most MV techs and service managers know the problem exists but no one including the engineers have a good handle on the reason for failure. MV has blamed the problem on everything from dirt getting in the tanks thru uncovered tank vents to fuel and fuel pressure related to the current emissions requirements. There has been 10 releases of updated injectors claiming that the newest injector and cup is the cure but ultimately it's not. The only protection for the one truck owner or a fleet is to spend the money and buy an extended warranty.if your hard to start, have a cut out miss between 12 and 1400 rpm's,and no codes, it's injectors...... other than injectors,minor VGT turbo calibration issues and some other PITA sensors, the trucks are good.

Now the good news. MV is releasing a common rail fuel system in 2017 ( not model year 2017).

I just bought a 2012 Chu; I have noticed that cutout before; my truck doesn't seem to pull good in that 1200 to 1400 rpm range & I have felt a cutout; my question is do I need to put injectors in; or have them put in or can I run it till it gets worse; seems like it does good above the 1400 rpm range; what would you suggest? Thanks

[jcalesan]

Sorry to say but the miss will get progressively worse and it will happen quickly. Be careful when it becomes a full blown miss between 12 and 1400. You will also start to experience extremely hard starting. It is also much cheaper in the long run to do all 6. If you dont, you will be opening it up again in another couple months. Make sure they also adjust the valves when they reassemble. The test for bad injectors is pretty simple, the tech will check for air returning out of the head.

[1965]

Sorry to say but the miss will get progressively worse and it will happen quickly. Be careful when it becomes a full blown miss between 12 and 1400. You will also start to experience extremely hard starting. It is also much cheaper in the long run to do all 6. If you dont, you will be opening it up again in another couple months. Make sure they also adjust the valves when they reassemble. The test for bad injectors is pretty simple, the tech will check for air returning out of the head.

What do you mean when you say (be careful) when it becomes a full blown miss between 12 & 1400? Is it something I can harm or something; I have only felt that 1 or 2 times; also can I change the injectors myself; I would rather do it myself where I can run the overhead myself; don't trust my Mack dealer Thanks

[jcalesan]

Careful means" get it fixed before it leaves you sit" tow charges are expensive and leaves you vulnerable to over the road repairs that are never done right. If you can't trust your dealer, I would suggest you find one that you can. I would not recommend anyone do their own on a blog. Everyone's skills are different. I can say that we have a dealer do all of ours. If the truck is out of warranty, mack or volvo dealers can do them. If you need a good dealer. I can recommend serval in different regions. Also, if you become a polite pest and as the regional service rep to get involved, he can offer some assistance depending on the situation.

[1965]

Careful means" get it fixed before it leaves you sit" tow charges are expensive and leaves you vulnerable to over the road repairs that are never done right. If you can't trust your dealer, I would suggest you find one that you can. I would not recommend anyone do their own on a blog. Everyone's skills are different. I can say that we have a dealer do all of ours. If the truck is out of warranty, mack or volvo dealers can do them. If you need a good dealer. I can recommend serval in different regions. Also, if you become a polite pest and as the regional service rep to get involved, he can offer some assistance depending on the situation.

You are just talking about injectors; the cups should be ok

The only problem I would have if something has to be programmed into computer; I'm sure it is but could I put them in & then take it to the dealer & let them program it; or have them make a service call & come to me & program it; I really rather do it myself; My dealer is in memphis & they just don't have good attitude; at least the mechanics I've talked to & service manager is no better; that's just my opion. Thanks

[220cummins]

You are just talking about injectors; the cups should be ok

The only problem I would have if something has to be programmed into computer; I'm sure it is but could I put them in & then take it to the dealer & let them program it; or have them make a service call & come to me & program it; I really rather do it myself; My dealer is in memphis & they just don't have good attitude; at least the mechanics I've talked to & service manager is no better; that's just my opion. Thanks

Cups come with the injector kit. Change them when you change the injectors cause they are usually messed up from the injector "walking" around in the cup

[jcalesan]

Aways do the cups as well. And they will almost always be bad. I think the proper name for the tool required to set the cups is a "SWEDGE TOOL" and it is specific to the injector cup. McMahon in Nashville is good. Legacy in Somerset and Bedford pa are really good. Any of the rr locations in oh are good. M&k in Michigan are ok but are a bit high for labor. Susquehanna near Williamsport pa are good.

And yes the inectors will need programmed. Como rail in 2017. Can't wait till 18 when they finally get the bugs worked out.,I'm placing my order now.. lol

[220cummins]

Aways do the cups as well. And they will almost always be bad. I think the proper name for the tool required to set the cups is a "SWEDGE TOOL" and it is specific to the injector cup. McMahon in Nashville is good. Legacy in Somerset and Bedford pa are really good. Any of the rr locations in oh are good. M&k in Michigan are ok but are a bit high for labor. Susquehanna near Williamsport pa are good.

And yes the inectors will need programmed. Como rail in 2017. Can't wait till 18 when they finally get the bugs worked out.,I'm placing my order now.. lol

Two different twos for swedging (installing) cups. One for copper cups and one for stainless. Stainless are the replacement and current production. I'm curious to see common rail setup I keep hearing about.

[1965]

Cups come with the injector kit. Change them when you change the injectors cause they are usually messed up from the injector "walking" around in the cup

Aways do the cups as well. And they will almost always be bad. I think the proper name for the tool required to set the cups is a "SWEDGE TOOL" and it is specific to the injector cup. McMahon in Nashville is good. Legacy in Somerset and Bedford pa are really good. Any of the rr locations in oh are good. M&k in Michigan are ok but are a bit high for labor. Susquehanna near Williamsport pa are good.

And yes the inectors will need programmed. Como rail in 2017. Can't wait till 18 when they finally get the bugs worked out.,I'm placing my order now.. lol

Two different twos for swedging (installing) cups. One for copper cups and one for stainless. Stainless are the replacement and current production. I'm curious to see common rail setup I keep hearing about.

Thanks for all the information; don't know what am going to do

When the common rail engine comes out reakon how long before we can trust that they have it right? Sold my 09 model because scared of having cup problems, knew it had 2 replaced (copper) got a low mile 12 model thinking at least won't have to worry about cup issues; thinking ought to trade this for a new one & get best warranty then trade when the common rail engine comes out & have some warranty still left for maybe good trade in value; but hate to be the ginnie pig on the new engine

[jcalesan]

I think and hope it will be a big improvment. It is my understanding that it is to be released in 2017.

[kscarbel2]

Thanks for all the information; don't know what am going to do

When the common rail engine comes out reakon how long before we can trust that they have it right? Sold my 09 model because scared of having cup problems, knew it had 2 replaced (copper) got a low mile 12 model thinking at least won't have to worry about cup issues; thinking ought to trade this for a new one & get best warranty then trade when the common rail engine comes out & have some warranty still left for maybe good trade in value; but hate to be the ginnie pig on the new engine

From Euro-5, everyone went with common rail, the most efficient and trouble-free fuel injection method ever conceived. So much so that Euro-3 and Euro-4 spec engines for other countries with lower emissions requirements also were fitted with common rail (from 2009 on).

While Bosch designs and produces a superb common rail fuel injection system, Scania began jointly developing their own* common rail design with Cummins way back in 2003. Called Scania XPI (extra-high pressure injection), it was launched in 2007 on the Euro-5 engine range.

http://www.scania.com/media/pressreleases/2003121215en.aspx

https://www.sae.org/ohmag/techinnovations/10-2007/11-15-7-6.pdf

http://newsroom.scania.com/en-group/2013/03/12/from-indirect-injection-to-xpi-efficiency/

Why Volvo waited until Euro-6 (effective Sept 2015) to get away from unit pump injection and embrace (Bosch) common rail is a mystery.

Why Volvo's US market EPA2010 engines still use their troublesome unit pump injection today is a deeper mystery.

* In 1992, Scania and Cummins jointly started to develop a new high-pressure injection system, the objective being to find ways to further enhance diesel engine efficiency and environmental performance.

Following development, production of the new system began on January 1, 1999 at the 70-30 Cummins-Scania High Pressure Injection LLC joint venture in Columbus, Indiana headed by Scott Deyerling.

The first engine to use the new electronically controlled HPI (high pressure injection) system was the Cummins Signature 600.

Scania launched HPI on its Euro-3 engines in the 2001 model year.

On August 26, 2005, Cummins and Scania formed a 50-50 joint venture called Cummins-Scania XPI Manufacturing LLP, building on the Cummins-Scania partnership for fuel systems development and manufacturing that dated back to January 1992.

The new joint venture continued to produce HPI, while ramping up to produce XPI from 2006.

[Rob615]

On 9/17/2015 at 5:16 PM, Kingdirt said:

bbigrig,

I have many questions about cracked injector tips. I am beginning to believe my DPF problems are coming from that, since I have replaced almost every element of the DPF system.

I go into passive regen every 70-80 miles like clockwork. Then it goes to manual regen needed, then to urgent, then disspears and runs great for 70 more. It doesnt matter if I pull over for a parked regen, or just drive through it, same results, same cycle.

Been to TEC in vegas, la mirada, eugene oregon, and portland. Been to Transport Equip in Missoula, Tri-State in Tupelo MS. Ive had it in 4 independant shops,also.

Ive cleaned the filter twice, replaced dpf seals 3 times. 2 new clamps. cleaned 7th injector, then replaced 7th injector. Replaced flex pipe. Replaced all temp sensors on dpf. replaced diff pressure sensor. Replaced one sensor on aftertreatment fuel pressure valve, then told I should have done the whole thing, so thats new too. EGR diff pressure sensor removed and cleaned.

Over 10,000$ in two months.Ironically, only about 3000$ in parts, labor is whats killing me. Almost every shop ive been into has thrown a new part on it, ran 3 or 4 service regens until they get the numbers looking good, and taken my money. 80 miles down the road Im back in regen.

Smoke is getting worse, its whitish blue. Not a true indicator of excessive fuel, but the way the truck acts is like that filter is getting Soaked, to the point of plugged while regening, until I get to that 3rd stage,.. The URGENT stage, then all that smoke gets forced thru and im clean again. And, Ive also dropped from a steady 7-7.5 mpg to under 6mpg in the last 3 or 4 weeks. Since Transport in Missoula ran 4 back to back regens and had my truck boiling in the sun. At that point they replaced the aftertreatment fuel pressure sensor. I replaced the entire valve a couple days later.

After 2 regens, with PTT on it, im showing under 10% soot rate. But when i first hook to it, it usually reads 144%. Unfortunately, Im getting better at reading PTT than alot of the Techs ive had work on it. They seem to like to just push that button (service regen)and walk away. None have ever actually stayed there and "monitored" anything.

Any symptoms sound familiar? Any help would be greatly appreciated,... Im about to default my loan and lose this truck. I cant run like this, and these shops have exhausted all of my reserves with "uneduacated guesses".

Wow, sorry. Maybe I should have started my own thread!

I too have the exact same problem on two different trucks. Both 2015 volvo 670's with d13's. Same symptoms and constant derate and parked regens. I have replaced every component, sensor, etc that makes up the def system. Cleaned the filter several times, etc. Please let me know if you find a solution. 

[Abba]

I am having serious problems with my mp8 enjector 

[Cvalencia]

Hi there!

I am looking for some advice.

1- My brother from South America is in need of a new set of injectors for his Mack MP8.

2- I don’t know anything about big trucks 

can someone guide me where I can buy this?

[ross28646]

I have a 2013 with a mp8 motor

353,000 miles on it.it take 10 seconds to start in the morning and then everything I shut it off the same thing.cpuld it be injector cups?also when I run it and let off throttle then rethrottle it has no power and dies out for 6 seconds then purges back up.It has all new fuel filters

[fjh]

6 minutes ago, ross28646 said:

I have a 2013 with a mp8 motor

353,000 miles on it.it take 10 seconds to start in the morning and then everything I shut it off the same thing.cpuld it be injector cups?also when I run it and let off throttle then rethrottle it has no power and dies out for 6 seconds then purges back up.It has all new fuel filters

yup

[Joey Mack]

Yep...

[jerry b]

who can tell me if these 2 mack have injectors ans cup done.  2013 and 2012 Vin # 1M1AW09Y1DM028934 and 1M1AW09Y4CM021460