If the Oregon militiamen were Muslim or black, they'd probably be dead by now

[41chevy]

HUMMM, some things fishy between the story,s here! the one i got earlier was that they started a back burn to protect their hay stacks from an approaching wild fire on BLM property, thus adding to to the acres burned and that was why the judge gave them a reduced sentence ,

They were charged , tried and convicted for the 2001 and 2006 fires,. A Judge sentenced them and there was no appeal or action filed by the State to over turn the sentence as issued by the judge. After serving the time the Federals decided the judge was wrong and not enough time was served. The issue of putting them back in prison, not counting time served and starting the sentence from day one is the problem. The trial, people and justice system already determined their guilt and the court handed down their punishment and they served the ordered time, so now the state is not happy with the sentences and adds more time after they were released for how long? IMO that does turn them or anybody else in that situation victims.

A side note, all the witnesses for the 2001 fire were given immunity for the "testimonies" .

[HeavyGunner]

And where would we be if the only militias in 1775 were sanctioned by the government (i.e. loyal to the crown)? The Militia in this country was never intended to be federally sanctioned, as it was a last line of defense against federal overreach in order to protect the sovereignty of the state's, as well as being the first line of defense against foreign invasions as the local militia could be called up on a moment's notice whereas federal troops need to be deployed from wherever it is they are stationed and they might be days or weeks away from arriving where they are needed. Granted in today's world, with the surveillance technology we have, an invading army wouldn't likely reach our shores unnoticed. However, the enemies we face today are not coming with a fleet of war ships carrying hundreds of thousands on infantry soldiers, making the "unorganized" militia once again relevant, as they are the ones who are likely to be at the scene needing to act while the police and other government agents are "on their way". I can respect a lot of differing opinions...not so much, though, when they are simply wrong and run contrary to historical facts. For as well-read as you usually come across, it simply amazes me how far off you are on this.

Amen! I don't think that people realize the magnitude of protection and freedom the second amendment provides this country with. I realize we can't stop all the crime or invasions simply because we are armed but I like knowing the fact that I/we at least get the chance to fight/protect ourselves. Like I said earlier in this post, "In a country where you are armed you are a citizen, in a country where the public is disarmed you are a SUBJECT."

[kscarbel2]

Amen! I don't think that people realize the magnitude of protection and freedom the second amendment provides this country with. I realize we can't stop all the crime or invasions simply because we are armed but I like knowing the fact that I/we at least get the chance to fight/protect ourselves. Like I said earlier in this post, "In a country where you are armed you are a citizen, in a country where the public is disarmed you are a SUBJECT."

If the day comes when crime levels are such that we all have to carry guns on our person, a sad and pathetic day indeed............then the United States of America will have lost all that once made it the greatest country in the world.

I am a citizen. I don’t own a gun, and have no desire to carry one in daily, ordinary life. I would not locate myself in a vicinity that required me to carry a gun for protection. Life’s too short......I’m not going to live that way.

[theakerstwo]

The 2nd admendment is being running over because too many people don't care but some day they will.They will be just like the people under hitler.

I believe that ever one some day will wish they had not listen to the double talk that comes from the white house liberals.They are going to get us all killed.I have more respect now for Putin than I do for Obama.

[TeamsterGrrrl]

These "militias" are a joke... They were begging for food the first day and their "treasurer" went into town and got drunk on their treasury! They're already arguing and feuding with the other "militias", none of whom are "well regulated" as the constitution requires for second amendment rights to be valid. And defend the country even with illegal "full auto" weapons? Any decent military could shut these clowns down and have them behind bars before breakfast!

[RowdyRebel]

The fact that you are ALLOWED to have a gun makes you safer, whether you actually have one or not. It is by no coincidence that the Aurora, CO movie theater shooter drove past half a dozen other theaters also showing that same movie on his way to shoot up the "gun free" one. "Gun free" zones are soft targets, which is WHY mass shootings almost always occur inside their boundaries where the shooter is confident that he will be unstoppable for the 5-10 minutes (or longer) it will take for the police to arrive. They don't select a gun show, NRA convention, or anywhere else people are likely to be armed and able to defend themselves. Instead, they look for that "No Guns" sign on the entrance to the mall or pick a school known to be a "gun free" zone. You are free to choose not to carry, but you are made safer because others have chosen to carry. With concealed carry, a person with evil intentions does not know who is or is not armed, which is why violent crime drops when ccw laws are enacted. When your victim might shoot you dead, it makes you think a little harder about whether or not it's worth attacking them. When you can be confident your victim is defenseless, you're free to do as you please. I am all for the choice. The government has no power to tell people they MUST carry, just as they shouldn't have the power to say NOBODY can carry. It is a choice, as it should be in a free society.

[Outbehindthebarn]

If the day comes when crime levels are such that we all have to carry guns on our person, a sad and pathetic day indeed............then the United States of America will have lost all that once made it the greatest country in the world.

I am a citizen. I don’t own a gun, and have no desire to carry one in daily, ordinary life. I would not locate myself in a vicinity that required me to carry a gun for protection. Life’s too short......I’m not going to live that way.

I think that day has arrived in certain neighborhoods in Chicago. . . others too I'm sure.

Isn't that at least part of the Black Lives Matter movement? High unemployment, broken families, and a general lack of "agency"... together they create a society that produces crime and subsequent gun violence. People in those neighborhoods are arming themselves daily. They are also using said arms to murder and maim daily too.

Now I wouldn't contend that these armed groups of people in these neighborhoods (aka gangs) would consider themselves a "militia'; determined to preserve the rights of law-abiding property owning citizens, but the impetus is almost certainly the same: To protect what they think is theirs from a hostile take over.

The Militia-minded folks legitimize their weapons through tradition dating back to the nations founding, along with a genuine fear of 'what-if?'.

The gangs of Chicago legitimize their weapons on nothing less than real honest-to-goodness survival. The idea of what makes America great long ago vanished for them.....

Edited January 14, 2016 by RealDiehl

[Apple dog]

If the day comes when crime levels are such that we all have to carry guns on our person, a sad and pathetic day indeed............then the United States of America will have lost all that once made it the greatest country in the world.

I am a citizen. I dont own a gun, and have no desire to carry one in daily, ordinary life. I would not locate myself in a vicinity that required me to carry a gun for protection. Lifes too short......Im not going to live that way.

That is totally your choice. If crime ever finds you the first thing you will say are dear God call someone with a gun. That will be the longest 15 minutes of your life. If you make it. Me personally I'm not taking the chance.

[Brandt]

map_of_all_u-s-_federal_land1.jpg

Amazing how we say this is "federal" land. It is NOT federal land, it is PUBLIC land the the citizenry has tasked the feds to maintain. Until we stop saying that it is federal land (when it is actually the tax payer's land) we can expect a power grab by the feds every time!!

[Brandt]

If the day comes when crime levels are such that we all have to carry guns on our person, a sad and pathetic day indeed............then the United States of America will have lost all that once made it the greatest country in the world.

I am a citizen. I don’t own a gun, and have no desire to carry one in daily, ordinary life. I would not locate myself in a vicinity that required me to carry a gun for protection. Life’s too short......I’m not going to live that way.

You have every right to choose not to own/carry a gun. However living in America, you will reap the rewards of those who do choose to own/carry them.

[41chevy]

These "militias" are a joke... They were begging for food the first day and their "treasurer" went into town and got drunk on their treasury! They're already arguing and feuding with the other "militias", none of whom are "well regulated" as the constitution requires for second amendment rights to be valid. And defend the country even with illegal "full auto" weapons? Any decent military could shut these clowns down and have them behind bars before breakfast!

There is a big difference between a legitimate unit and some yahoo's who don a set of BDU's and call themselves a militia to legitimatize their actions.

[HeavyGunner]

If the day comes when crime levels are such that we all have to carry guns on our person, a sad and pathetic day indeed............then the United States of America will have lost all that once made it the greatest country in the world.

I am a citizen. I don’t own a gun, and have no desire to carry one in daily, ordinary life. I would not locate myself in a vicinity that required me to carry a gun for protection. Life’s too short......I’m not going to live that way.

So you don't ever go to malls, movie theaters or any other public places that loons decide to shoot up? You have the right to not carry and I have the right to carry and choose so because I would much rather carry and not need it than have it the other way around. Especially now days you don't know what vicinity is too dangerous to walk unarmed. Pretty much every big city and public place (where it's supposedl to be more civilized) seems to be where most of the extreme violence occurs with regularity.

[kscarbel2]

18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy:

"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Associated Press / January 13, 2016

An Oregon rancher whose cattle graze next to the national wildlife refuge that an armed group is occupying says he didn't give them permission to enter his property and remove part of a fence.

The group protesting federal land policy tore down a stretch of government-erected fence Monday near the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

The group says the goal was to give rancher Tim Puckett access to land that had been blocked for years.

But Puckett says he wasn't aware of the group's plans and "they didn't have my permission to do anything."

Puckett says one of his people allowed the group onto the property but didn't let them remove the fence. He says he works with federal officials on land management, and his employees have repaired the fence.

[41chevy]

I could respect the statute if and only if the Federal Government enforced the law fully and not selectively. Did the enforce it in 1971 when Vietnam Vets occupied the Statue of Liberty, or in 1977 when Puerto Ricans for Independence occupied it, or in 1969 when Indians Native Americans occupied Alcatraz, or the College protests that occupied ROTC offices and burned Government funded labs during the Vietnam War.

If the media didn't put Bundy and his crew in the spotlight on National TV, the Feds let the state handle the dispute like they usually do and change the rules for a crime after the trial, sentencing, jail time and release after sentence served this situation wouldn't exist.

Harry Reid and a particular poster on here both seem to want a massive Federal tactical response against a group of camo clad, sign shooting yahoos who think the are Patriots, out for a cause they could care less about. (Manson and his Family did the same type things originally before murders) No press coverage, no media responses and they will get board and quit.

Maybe the Feds want this to go hot for other reasons. Don't you think a confrontation there like Waco, with the current political climate will have dire consequences for the entire nation? Paul

[kscarbel2]

That is totally your choice. If crime ever finds you the first thing you will say are dear God call someone with a gun. That will be the longest 15 minutes of your life. If you make it. Me personally I'm not taking the chance.

Casual gun ownership in America is a double-edged sword. The tragic events below are just since the beginning of the New Year.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Twelve-year-old Ciara Meyer was standing behind her father when a constable came to the door.

The officer was serving an eviction notice Monday morning at their apartment near Duncannon, Pa., when police said the girl’s father pointed a rifle at the constable’s chest.

The officer drew his gun in self-defense and fired one round.

The bullet went though the man’s arm and struck his daughter.

The girl was pronounced dead at the scene.

Pennsylvania State Constable Clarke Steele went to the apartment about 10 a.m. Monday to serve a court-ordered eviction notice. The girl, Ciara Meyer, was sick and had stayed home from school.

Her father, Donald Meyer, 57, opened the door and then shut it, said Constable Bill Stoeffler. Meyer opened the door again, Stoeffler said, and then raised a rifle that was slung across his body.

“The constable had no place to retreat to,” said Stoeffler. “He had to respond immediately.”

Stoeffler said Steele “managed to get his gun out and fire one round.” Then, he took cover and called for backup.

Upon arriving, authorities learned that the constable had shot Meyer and “tragically, the little girl,” Stoeffler said.

Donald Meyer, who was transported to Penn State Hershey Medical Center to be treated for his injuries, has been charged with simple assault, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment and terroristic threats.

He will be held without bail. A preliminary court hearing is set for Jan. 15.

Stoeffler said Constable Steele is “devastated” about the incident. “He’s absolutely heartbroken over the outcome of this.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Cincinnati man, believing his 14-year-old son was at school, fatally shot the boy when he mistook him for an intruder at their home Tuesday morning.

The shooting occurred around 6:30 a.m. The father’s name has not been released.

The 73-year-old father of 14-year-old Georta Mack dropped his son off at a school bus stop Tuesday morning, but Cincinnati police say he the teen went back to his basement around 6:30 a.m.

After hearing a noise in the basement, the father grabbed a handgun to investigate. The son startled the man, according to the frantic 911 call, and the father shot.

Throughout the call Georta's father begs police to hurry, asking God why this has happened. He tells police his son is struggling to breathe as he held a cloth to his neck to slow the bleeding.

Shortly after, he exclaimed that his son stopped breathing.

Georta was taken to Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center. Shortly after 8:15 a.m., the boy was pronounced dead at Children's Hospital.

Hamilton County is investigating whether to bring charges against the father.

Cincinnati Police Chief Eliot Isaac said that gun ownership was an “individual choice” but that those with firearms need to be trained to use them properly.

[thomastractorsvc]

You list two tragic incidences but where is the incidences where a gun saved someone?

So because the father raised and pointed a gun at a law enforcement officer and he shot the suspect (not a law abiding citizen now since he pointed a rifle at a peace officer) instead of taking the eviction notice and his daughter was killed it is because he owned a gun???? It could have easily been a butcher knife, he still would have gotten shot. The father is responsible for what happened not the law enforcement officer or the rifle, the father made the choice not to comply which got his daughter killed.

The the son would not have tried to sneak back into the house he would not have gotten shot by the father. The father dropped the son at the bus stop and when he left the boy decided to skip school and sneak back to the house. It is a sad that something like that happened but had the boy not broken into his own house the dad would not have thought it was an intruder. It was not the guns fault or the Dad, the dad was on the phone with the Police but as with most crimes police investigate they rarely catch anyone in the act of Breaking and Entering or Robbery. What if it was not his son but a cracked out intruder that had a gun, the Dad was on the phone with police but that would not have stopped the cracked out intruder from shooting the dad.

Here are a couple all I did was google gun saves family- http://kxan.com/2016/01/12/intruder-shot-during-dripping-springs-home-invasion/

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/255923/

https://www.ecr.co.za/news-sport/news/listen-brave-durban-teen-saves-family-intruders/

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/columbia-county-man-shoots-armed-home-intruder/npzxd/

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/72451674-story

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2016/1/2/pcso_intruder_shot_a.html

I can go on but I think you get the point

[kscarbel2]

You list two tragic incidences but where is the incidences where a gun saved someone?

So because the father raised and pointed a gun at a law enforcement officer and he shot the suspect (not a law abiding citizen now since he pointed a rifle at a peace officer) instead of taking the eviction notice and his daughter was killed it is because he owned a gun???? It could have easily been a butcher knife, he still would have gotten shot. The father is responsible for what happened not the law enforcement officer or the rifle, the father made the choice not to comply which got his daughter killed.

The the son would not have tried to sneak back into the house he would not have gotten shot by the father. The father dropped the son at the bus stop and when he left the boy decided to skip school and sneak back to the house. It is a sad that something like that happened but had the boy not broken into his own house the dad would not have thought it was an intruder. It was not the guns fault or the Dad, the dad was on the phone with the Police but as with most crimes police investigate they rarely catch anyone in the act of Breaking and Entering or Robbery. What if it was not his son but a cracked out intruder that had a gun, the Dad was on the phone with police but that would not have stopped the cracked out intruder from shooting the dad.

Here are a couple all I did was google gun saves family- http://kxan.com/2016/01/12/intruder-shot-during-dripping-springs-home-invasion/

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/01/255923/

https://www.ecr.co.za/news-sport/news/listen-brave-durban-teen-saves-family-intruders/

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/columbia-county-man-shoots-armed-home-intruder/npzxd/

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/72451674-story

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2016/1/2/pcso_intruder_shot_a.html

I can go but I think you get the point

Like I said, it's a double-edged sword. That mankind seems unable (or unwilling) to evolve forward and live together in peace, is indescribably sad.

We're on this earth but a short while.........life's too short for violence.

After thousands of years, the "7 deadly sins" continue to rear their ugly heads. They sadly exercise control over mankind, rather than mankind taking control and banishing these incalculably costly vices to the pages of history.

Lust

Wrath (the uncontrolled hatred for someone or something, and the unquenchable desire to exact revenge on said object/person)

Greed

Sloth (Extreme laziness, people who feel that everything should be done for them, and will refuse to do anything for themselves)

Envy (jealousy)

Gluttony (the consumption of something to excess)

Vanity (over exaggerating of one's abilities or accomplishments)

[41chevy]

Lust

Wrath (the uncontrolled hatred for someone or something, and the unquenchable desire to exact revenge on said object/person)

Greed

Sloth (Extreme laziness, people who feel that everything should be done for them, and will refuse to do anything for themselves)

Envy (jealousy)

Gluttony (the consumption of something to excess)

Vanity (over exaggerating of one's abilities or accomplishments)

5 out of 7 describe Barak Obama scary

[41chevy]

CBS News

In recent days, America has been focused on Oregon and the group of militia members who are currently occupying a federal wildlife building. The militia members claim that they are there to support the Hammonds, ranchers who were jailed for burning federal land and who have to report back to prison today. However, the Hammonds have said something totally different.

CBS News reported that the Hammonds have clearly stated that the militia members, lead by Ammon Bundy, do not represent them and they do not condone their actions.

The Hammond family lawyer, W. Alan Schroeder, issued a statement:

“Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family.”

This statement is somewhat surprising, given that two Hammond family members are going back to prison on the same charges they were previously jailed for. And yes, that is (or should be) considered double jeopardy and un-Constitutional.

Despite being told to leave by several members of the Oregon community they are in, and the ranchers they claim they are defending, the militias continue to occupy the building and demand that the government stop taking over land.

Cliven Bundy, Ammon’s father, who had his own showdown with the federal government in 2014. ‘You know, if the Hammonds wouldn’t stand, if the sheriff didn’t stand, then, you know, the people had to do something. And I guess this is what they did decide to do. I wasn’t in on that.”

[kscarbel2]

Oregon militia standoff: One dead after Ammon Bundy and others arrested

The Guardian / January 27, 2016

The FBI has arrested the leader of the armed militia occupying the Malheur wildlife refuge and several others, and one person was killed during a shootout with federal agents

An associate of the armed Oregon militia occupying a wildlife refuge was shot dead on Tuesday after a shootout with federal agents that resulted in the arrest of the group’s leader Ammon Bundy and a group of protesters.

The shootout appears to have taken place on a highway in rural Oregon – away from the federal refuge the armed militia have been occupying.

FBI officials said they arrested Bundy, his brother Ryan Bundy, Bryan Cavalier, Shawna Cox and Ryan Payne on Tuesday afternoon after they stopped them along the highway.

The agency described the shootout and arrests as resulting from “an enforcement action to bring into custody a number of individuals associated with the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge” that occurred at 4.25pm PST.

It was not clear how many rounds were exchanged during the incident.

Police say militia spokeman LaVoy Finicum was killed in the shootout while resisting arrest. Ryan Bundy suffered non-life threatening injuries and was transported to a local hospital for treatment. He was arrested and is currently in custody.

Members of the militia had planned to attend a community meeting in the town of John Day, which is north of the Malheur national wildlife refuge that militiamen have been occupying since 2 January.

In a separate incident, Joe Oshaughnessy – another rightwing activist who earlier claimed he was trying to prevent violence from erupting at the refuge – was arrested in Burns, the closest town to the wildlife refuge.

At 6.30pm PST, FBI officials also arrested Pete Santilli, a conservative Ohio radio host who has been a vocal supporter of the Bundys and was earlier live-streaming the chaos outside of a hospital in Burns.

Santilli, Oshaughnessy and the men arrested on the highway are all facing federal felony charges of conspiracy to impede officers through the use of force, intimidation or threats.

Jon Ritzheimer, another prominent occupation leader who often helped run the militia’s “security” team, was also arrested late Tuesday night. Officials say Ritzheimer turned himself in at a police department in Peoria, Arizona, and that he was arrested without incident. He is also facing a federal felony charge.

Harney County Judge Steve Grasty, who has for weeks demanded that Bundy and the militia end the protests, said he was saddened to hear that there has been a death. “I’m deeply disappointed … that it looks like there has been a fatality,” he told the Guardian by phone. “This is so hard on everybody – our community and even the occupiers.”

Grasty said he couldn’t say yet whether the standoff was over. “I don’t know that it’s over. I have no idea what is happening at the refuge.” He added: “I’m glad to see this winding down, but we wanted this to come to a peaceful end and it didn’t.”

Bundy and a group of rightwing protesters stormed the refuge to protest the federal government and the imprisonment of two ranchers in rural Harney County.

[david wild]

Well now one rancher is dead, everyone happy ??? must be a reason that a man would risk his life, maybe there is more to this story than we know. If the Rancher died standing up to the Government about something that he was right about than he is a hero in my view. may be more people should stand up for what is right, I try and get BS for it. let's all vote liberal then we to can sit at home drinking beer and cooking barbecue all day, but then the country goes broke like all the liberal run cities ???? can't you libs figure it out ????

[41chevy]

Well now one rancher is dead, everyone happy ??? must be a reason that a man would risk his life, maybe there is more to this story than we know. If the Rancher died standing up to the Government about something that he was right about than he is a hero in my view. may be more people should stand up for what is right, I try and get BS for it. let's all vote liberal then we to can sit at home drinking beer and cooking barbecue all day, but then the country goes broke like all the liberal run cities ???? can't you libs figure it out ????

You are mostly talking to sheep being led to slaughter, when it's too late the light goes on. Happens in my barn every spring when my Lambs go to Club Westinghouse , no different than whats going to happen here soon.

I can not stand quietly when things are not right and constantly catch crap about it. Caught flak in the service sticking up for some Vietnamese, catch it now Know what? Fck'em!! I can sleep at night knowing I stood up for what is right.

[RowdyRebel]

I heard the shootout was one-sided...the ranchers weren't even armed in the vehicle. Hope that cop is brought up on charges if that is true...or does rioting, looting, and cities being burned have to occur? Funny how the "justice system" works in this country...

[Wobblin-Goblin]

The government conveniently put out to the media that there was a "shootout," when in reality only the agents fired their weapons and the other side was unarmed.

Of course the media lapped it up.

[kscarbel2]

ABC News / January 28, 2016

Self-described militiamen Mike McConnell said he was driving a vehicle carrying Ammon Bundy and another occupier, Brian Cavalier. He said Finicum was driving a truck and with him were Ryan Bundy — Ammon's brother — as well as three others.

He said the convoy was driving through a forest when they were stopped by agents in heavy-duty trucks. He said agents first pulled him out of the vehicle, followed by Ammon Bundy and Cavalier.

When agents approached the truck driven by Filicum, he drove off with officers in pursuit.

McConnell said Filicum encountered a roadblock.

Filicum got his truck stuck in a snowbank, and Finicum got out and "charged them. He went after them," McConnell said.

Relatives of Ammon Bundy offered similar accounts, but they said Finicum did nothing to provoke FBI agents.

Briana Bundy, a sister of Ammon Bundy, said he called his wife after his arrest. He said the group was stopped by state and federal officers.

She said people in the two vehicles complied with instructions to get out with their hands up.

"LaVoy shouted, 'Don't shoot. We're unarmed,' " Briana Bundy said in an interview with The Associated Press. "They began to fire on them. Ammon said it happened real fast."

"Ammon said, 'They murdered him in cold blood. We did everything they asked, and they murdered him. We complied with their demands,' " she said.

{I believe everyone will learn that Ammon Bundy's version of the event is a falsehood]

McConnell had a different perspective.

"Any time someone takes off with a vehicle away from law enforcement after they've exercised a stop, it's typically considered an act of aggression, and foolish," he said.

McConnell said he was questioned by authorities, and he believes he was not charged because he was not considered a leader of the group. Briana Bundy confirmed that McConnell was in the convoy on Tuesday.