New Common Rail MP8

[bbigrig]

18 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

I suspect though that this is the "company line" for removing it, to distract from the real reason......cutting cost (decontenting) where their gambling the US customer either won't notice or care, to improve profitability. Meanwhile in the global market DD15, the Mercedes-Benz badged OM472, the feature remains. 

Scania engines employ TC technology, and it works very well in enhancing performance and fuel economy.

I know after a little investigation locally that the same fleets that had trucks (DD15 powered) with Turbo compounding are now DD15 powered fleets without it. They don't even notice a Difference. The DD engineer said the same thing of thier US customers. If you are not using the bottom end of your torque/power band on a regular basis. When are you going to reap the benifits?  Terrain, load an proper truck specs will effect it's usage. 

Weather the Benz Global engine/truck is In Europe or not should not make a difference.

Is it possible that the North American "keep it simple stupid" way of evaluating product usefulness has finally proven a European over design wrong.         (inconceivable!) 

In this case, I would agree.

I wouldn't need it or want it on any of my trucks. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by bbigrig

[kscarbel2]

Rather than investing it's time, money and effort in the creation of a new engine architecture purpose-designed for a proper Bosch common rail fuel injection system, the company was investing it's time, money and effort on...........toys.

And you ended up with a band-aid common rail retrofit design for unit pump engines produced by the world's worst fuel injection supplier - Delphi (the same supplier who brought you your injector cup nightmare).

Think about that the next time you have injection and/or oil dilution problems.

.

 

 

[Bullheaded]

OK, so does the Detroit DD16 still use turbo compounding or not? This is taken from their web site today:

 

Our exclusive 2nd Generation Amplified Common Rail System (ACRS™) and simple turbocharger combine to deliver instant acceleration like no other engine and torque response other drivers will envy.

• The right amount of fuel at the right time makes for an extremely quiet, smooth combustion and meets strict emissions requirements
• Variable injection patterns give you fuel economy across a wide variety of engine operations
• Turbo compounding helps your rig use less fuel without sacrificing power – making it the perfect solution for rising fuel prices. It recovers thermal energy from the exhaust stream, converting normally lost energy into useable power.

 

First it says "simple turbocharger" but then says turbo compounding.

 

My current Detroit has the turbo compounding. It has been a good reliable engine so far.

[Mackpro]

Today I got some info from our Mack District Service Manager that the new engine will be out in late September/early October. And also the factory fill oil will be Exxon Mobil 10W30.

[kscarbel2]

1 hour ago, Mackpro said:

Today I got some info from our Mack District Service Manager that the new engine will be out in late September/early October. And also the factory fill oil will be Exxon Mobil 10W30.

http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/45838-volvo-trucks-north-america-press-conference-shippensburg-pa/#comment-337812

.

[kscarbel2]

On 6/5/2016 at 1:22 AM, Bullheaded said:

OK, so does the Detroit DD16 still use turbo compounding or not? This is taken from their web site today:

 

Our exclusive 2nd Generation Amplified Common Rail System (ACRS™) and simple turbocharger combine to deliver instant acceleration like no other engine and torque response other drivers will envy.

• The right amount of fuel at the right time makes for an extremely quiet, smooth combustion and meets strict emissions requirements
• Variable injection patterns give you fuel economy across a wide variety of engine operations
• Turbo compounding helps your rig use less fuel without sacrificing power – making it the perfect solution for rising fuel prices. It recovers thermal energy from the exhaust stream, converting normally lost energy into useable power.

First it says "simple turbocharger" but then says turbo compounding.

My current Detroit has the turbo compounding. It has been a good reliable engine so far.

The DD16 still has turbocompounding. Look for it in the video at 0:22

 

The US market DD15TC was replaced by the DD15AI. With the second generation X-Pulse (aka. ACRS) common rail with pressures up to 2700 bar, they were able to remove the turbo compounding, which admittedly adds cost, complexity and weight. There's no reliability issue.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New: the latest generation of the X-Pulse injection system.

An important component of the new engine generation is the second generation of the X-Pulse injection system [aka. ACRS], the unique common rail system with pressure boosting in the injector and free modelling flexibility of the injection system. The maximum fuel pressure has been increased from 900 to 1,160 bar, resulting in a maximum injection pressure of 2,700 bar.

The injection nozzle is an eight-hole nozzle (previously seven holes), increasing the maximum flow rate by around ten percent. Additional modifications include the piston bowl geometry, the sizeable increase in compression ratio from 17.3:1 to 18.3:1, along with a reduced exhaust gas recirculation rate (EGR rate). All these measures add up to a further improvement in efficiency across the entire engine performance map. This in turn lowers fuel consumption significantly. The optimum values in the consumption characteristic map have followed the new torque curve towards lower rev speeds.

Systematically configuring the engine for low fuel consumption means that untreated NO_x emissions rise. This is countered by the SCR technology featuring an innovative and efficient SCR catalytic converter. AdBlue consumption is therefore on a par with earlier Euro V engines at around five percent of fuel consumption.

The cost balance is right: The up to three percent reduction in fuel consumption is countered only by a slight increase in the considerably lower-priced AdBlue for exhaust gas cleaning. In other words: For a yearly distance travelled of 130,000 km in long-distance transport and a consumption of approximately 28.5 litres/100 km on a challenging route, fully laden, every single Mercedes-Benz Actros with the second generation OM 471 (and OM472/DD15, OM473/DD16) engine saves approximately 1,100 litres of fuel per year and emits around three tonnes less CO₂.

 

 

 

[jcalesan]

MV might be calling it common rail but the only thing common is the new engine still uses IU'S to make the fuel pressure off the cam. So here is the details that I know. The new mp8 will have 3 IU'S making the fuel pressure and 3 non pressure injectors tied to the pump injectors. No real change in the cups or the base platform. The fuel pressure has been dropped to 25000. some changes made to the cam and rockers. 

overall. much of the new engine is just a sales pitch. MV has never figured out their issues with injectors and cups and is still clueless. it's a shame. 

good luck to anyone who buys one. no more MV for me. MV won't stand up for their products even when it is clear that the injector/cup issue is a rampant problem on any truck. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mackpro]

[bbigrig]

You may notice the display engine in the picture making the rounds is missing external fuel lines to feed the rail under the valve cover.  It's not a complete mock up.  I'm thinking (and hoping) this is a bridge engine and that there is another engine currently in the works for release at a later date.

[fjh]

Would be nice but ! Hope your right however Lets see Bridge engine! ! =  Another Half baked bandaid !

 

[james j neiweem]

Doesn't make sense that they would use 3 UI's and 3 common rails injectors. Sounds like a test project using the customers as guinae pigs.

[fjh]

On September 14, 2016 at 3:06 AM, james j neiweem said:

Doesn't make sense that they would use 3 UI's and 3 common rails injectors. Sounds like a test project using the customers as guinae pigs.

Yup

[bbigrig]

 

On 9/17/2016 at 1:00 AM, fjh said:

Yup

A couple of Large fleets up here have made decent orders months ago to avoid having these engines in the trucks about to be built.  One customer has been a regular tester of new Mack powertrains for decades.  He has had enough of the failures in the last 15 years of product development.

I believe the use of the 3 plunger unit injectors may have to do with a principal that Detroit/Benz uses on the DD series  with an extra set of injector holes in  each injector tip.
 Detroit/Benz has them on all 6 injectors and the higher then common rail pressures are made by using fuel pressure as its mechanical/fluid advantage to increase injection pressures at the tip.(basically the same principal as CAT and Navistar's use of HEUI injection systems. its ported through the head separate from the actual injector fuel supply only being used as a form of hydraulic advantage. 
 The lower pressure is fed to each injector by the fuel rail.  The DD engines use both sets of tip ports for every cylinder injection.  Metering and duration increase for high power demand and regens. 

 On Volvo/Mack The 3 Unit injectors ( that will have 2 sets of tip ports? )will use the rocker arm plunger as its high pressure actuator (Instead of a HEUI like system) when needed on the one set of injector nozzle ports while the common rail will feed the lower pressure injector ports (on the unit injectors with plungers only) The mechanical plunger will be used to amplify the common rail pressure most likely.

The other 3 injectors will be fed by the rail only and have a single set of nozzle ports at the tip.    (I have yet to confirm this but it makes sort of sense to me)
Why Mack/Volvo will only needs 3 cylinders to do this is strange to me.

Lets see if my hypothesis is correct, as nobody at my dealer has been trained on these engines yet. 

 

[Mackpro]

In Atlanta till Friday Going to Mack school on the new Mack common rail engine. Hopefully I will feel better about it when I get out of class .  I will report what I find out. 

[Mackpro]

Lots to say about the engine. 98% all good! Here are the only downfalls I see. You have to crank on it a little longer to start than the old engine. About 2 seconds, feels longer as I'm used the older MP's starting right off . They removed the fuel pressure sensor on the filter stand , if you want view fuel pressure you have to view it on the AHI/ 7th injector shut off valve side. And the AHI/ 7th injector shut off valve is made into the fuel filter stand which will be harder to replace if it fails. The calibration/trim codes for the injectors are 38 digits long but can be scanned and entered with a QR gun .  And lastly if you have to remove the injectors you have to replace all 6 of the fuel rail tubes. They are non-reusable. These changes mostly affect techs that work on the engine. i will report the good news in another post soon. 

[Mackpro]

Sorry double post again. Lots to say about the engine. 98% all good! Here are the only downfalls I see. You have to crank on it a little longer to start than the old engine. About 2 seconds, feels longer as I'm used the older MP's starting right off . They removed the fuel pressure sensor on the filter stand , if you want view fuel pressure you have to view it on the AHI/ 7th injector shut off valve side. And the AHI/ 7th injector shut off valve is made into the fuel filter stand which will be harder to replace if it fails. The calibration/trim codes for the injectors are 38 digits long but can be scanned and entered with a QR gun .  And lastly if you have to remove the injectors you have to replace all 6 of the fuel rail tubes. They are non-reusable. These changes mostly affect techs that work on the engine.  

Edited December 10, 2016 by Mackpro

[Mackpro]

The good news is . Only major changes are above the top of the cylinder head. The injection pressure has been lowered from 33,000 psi down to 22,000. This should help with injector and cup life. Injectors 2-4-6 are pumping injectors that preform just like the older MP Injectors but also presssuize the common rain for injectors 1-3-5. Injectors 1-3-5 can also be removed without removing rocker arm shaft.  It's really super simple if you really see it in person. The camshaft is hollow and lighter weight and there is no balancer/vibration damper on the camshaft now. The 2 speed water pump is simple and the clutched air compressor has been in use by Volvo for a few years now.  The harness under the valve cover is replaceable without changing the whole engine harness. And the engine sounds much quieter than before.  The air intake for the air compressor no longer goes over the valve cove . It's now plumbed directly into the air filter housing. This makes removing the valve cover faster and easier. I doubt we will ever see many of the turbo compound set up's. All in all I feel better about the engine. 

[fjh]

Thanx for the UPDATE  post MP  Hope Your Correct ! The injector cup issue is still in the mix in my opinion if they are using cam contact  to build pressure  at least now it will only be three injector cups to fuss over!

and the separate  internal Wiring is a true bonus!  However  Time will tell!

Hopefully we will have something to be proud of once again! MAYBE!?

[Dirtymilkman]

Thanks for the elaborate update! I was waiting for this. 

[james j neiweem]

Good report. So is this in actuality a 1/2 a common rail engine. Also I thought engine manufacturers were going to higher injection pressures for more efficient fuel burn. What are the injection pressures on Cummins, Detroit, Paccar, Scania and IH/Mann.