Rosenbauer- 4WD

[Red Horse]

Well I learned my town has a new Rosenbauer on order- 4wd. Its not on a commercial chassis but I'm told its a typical pumper cab.  All the pix I've ever seen of 4 wd pumpers on typical pumpers have very small diameter rubber-at least they look that way.  we have a lot of gravel common drives and my concern is this small rubber is a formula  for trouble. can just see this thing getting hung up on 12 " of heavy snow with the wheels spinning.

Any thoughts from you fire pros?

[ff6cav]

My department has a 4wd pumper on a Spartan Mountainstar chassis.  It was originally designed as more of a water supply piece when we had 2 engines, but now it is our primary engine.  The 4wd is nice in winter weather, but otherwise the rig is too heavy to take "off road" and gets stuck most of the time when it does.  

 

 

[Red Horse]

3 hours ago, ff6cav said:

My department has a 4wd pumper on a Spartan Mountainstar chassis.  It was originally designed as more of a water supply piece when we had 2 engines, but now it is our primary engine.  The 4wd is nice in winter weather, but otherwise the rig is too heavy to take "off road" and gets stuck most of the time when it does.  

 

 

Well now that you mention Spartan I think one of the guys mentioned "Rosenbauer on a Spartan Chassis"-is that possible??-but you are making my point.  These guys think they are getting an Oshkosh!  Last year we had 130" of snow-this year easy winter-I think 40-but in anycase, I would bet money on a chain equipped 11:00R x 24.5 equipped with chains. vs one of these things with little rubber-which to me translates into less ground clearance.  

Then again as a taxpayer I would rather have seen my money go toward an F-550  4 x 4 mini-pumper.  I know some of you "pro's" have made negative comments about mini-pumpers but they do seem to sell well.  We also have an older DT-466 powered International S-1800 4 x 4.  That should have sufficed for the rare need when  4 x 4 was needed.  I've lived in this town for 26 years and never heard of once instance where the lack of four wheel drive led to a property loss.

[ff6cav]

5 minutes ago, Red Horse said:

Well now that you mention Spartan I think one of the guys mentioned "Rosenbauer on a Spartan Chassis"-is that possible??-but you are making my point.  These guys think they are getting an Oshkosh!  Last year we had 130" of snow-this year easy winter-I think 40-but in anycase, I would bet money on a chain equipped 11:00R x 24.5 equipped with chains. vs one of these things with little rubber-which to me translates into less ground clearance.  

Then again as a taxpayer I would rather have seen my money go toward an F-550  4 x 4 mini-pumper.  I know some of you "pro's" have made negative comments about mini-pumpers but they do seem to sell well.  We also have an older DT-466 powered International S-1800 4 x 4.  That should have sufficed for the rare need when  4 x 4 was needed.  I've lived in this town for 26 years and never heard of once instance where the lack of four wheel drive led to a property loss.

Spartan used to be just a chassis manufacturer, and would supply the cab/chassis for other companies who were just body makers.  Our engine there has a PA Fire Apparatus body, which is located about 5 miles from us in Heidlersburg, PA.  Apparatus built by multiple manufacturers are fairly common, depending on what departments are looking for- there are a decent amount of rescue trucks with Rescue 1 bodies on Seagrave chassis, because (to my understanding) Seagrave doesn't build rescue bodies.  It's funny you mention a mini-pumper, my department has been kicking that idea around for a little while now, just trying to figure out how to fund it; depending on how you spec it, they can cost almost as much as a (cheap) full sized engine.  Mini pumpers have their time and place, but can't take the place of a "real" engine.

[Red Horse]

6 minutes ago, ff6cav said:

Spartan used to be just a chassis manufacturer, and would supply the cab/chassis for other companies who were just body makers.  Our engine there has a PA Fire Apparatus body, which is located about 5 miles from us in Heidlersburg, PA.  Apparatus built by multiple manufacturers are fairly common, depending on what departments are looking for- there are a decent amount of rescue trucks with Rescue 1 bodies on Seagrave chassis, because (to my understanding) Seagrave doesn't build rescue bodies.  It's funny you mention a mini-pumper, my department has been kicking that idea around for a little while now, just trying to figure out how to fund it; depending on how you spec it, they can cost almost as much as a (cheap) full sized engine.  Mini pumpers have their time and place, but can't take the place of a "real" engine.

No argument on taking the place of a "real" engine.  But in a town of 4000, we have two fairly new front line pumpers, A F'Liner tanker that we got new under a Homeland Security Grant-happy to get it as a taxpayer-just tell me the justification for getting under such a grant, a very clean R-600 pumper-old but reliable and the S-1600 I mentioned.  To me the mini-pumper would make sense as a rapid response unit for car fires, brush fires etc.-againI'm not a fire fighter-but I did spend 44 years in a haz mat business and went to enough fire schools to know what you can do with a 20 lb. BC Ansul as well as a fog nozzle.  What do most mini's carry? at least 200 gals of water?

By the way, in terms of mutual aid we have all kinds of engines in neighboring towns that are like 5 miles from any section of town.  We also have only two or three light commercial businesses.  We do have a heavily traveled interstate that goes through town.  As for staffing, we have one paid guy on duty, basically  mon-fri, 8-4.  Other than that a call department.

[ff6cav]

5 minutes ago, Red Horse said:

No argument on taking the place of a "real" engine.  But in a town of 4000, we have two fairly new front line pumpers, A F'Liner tanker that we got new under a Homeland Security Grant-happy to get it as a taxpayer-just tell me the justification for getting under such a grant, a very clean R-600 pumper-old but reliable and the S-1600 I mentioned.  To me the mini-pumper would make sense as a rapid response unit for car fires, brush fires etc.-againI'm not a fire fighter-but I did spend 44 years in a haz mat business and went to enough fire schools to know what you can do with a 20 lb. BC Ansul as well as a fog nozzle.  What do most mini's carry? at least 200 gals of water?

By the way, in terms of mutual aid we have all kinds of engines in neighboring towns that are like 5 miles from any section of town.  We also have only two or three light commercial businesses.  We do have a heavily traveled interstate that goes through town.  As for staffing, we have one paid guy on duty, basically  mon-fri, 8-4.  Other than that a call department.

Most mini's are around 200-300 gallons plus some kind of foam system, so there's plenty of firefighting capability on them.  Obviously I don't know your town/department there, so it's hard to say what their justification is for the 4wd pumper; some people just want the toys "because they can".  One of our mutual aid companies has a housing community that is built on a mountain with only dirt roads, which are poorly maintained in the winter time and very rough in the summer; typically on a fire response there, we can get most "regular" fire units to the scene with little to no problem, although they do run their mini pumper out the door first in that area.

[fxfymn]

I find there is a lot of "penis envy" in some departments; all they care about is having a bigger, flashier, etc. rig than their neighbors; cost and utility be damned.

I am not a fan of mini-pumpers, but in this case it might make sense to have one equipped with a plow to clear the road for a larger rig. Combine that with on-spot chains on the big rig and you should be able to go where you need to. And push comes to shove the mini-pumper can always drag a supply line up a driveway through the snow to serve as an attack piece.

[Red Horse]

9 hours ago, fxfymn said:

I find there is a lot of "penis envy" in some departments; all they care about is having a bigger, flashier, etc. rig than their neighbors; cost and utility be damned.

I am not a fan of mini-pumpers, but in this case it might make sense to have one equipped with a plow to clear the road for a larger rig. Combine that with on-spot chains on the big rig and you should be able to go where you need to. And push comes to shove the mini-pumper can always drag a supply line up a driveway through the snow to serve as an attack piece.

Hah-"penis envy"-hit the nail on the head-ouch!  I'm at a pals shop a while back and the paid guy comes in with towns F-350 power stroke ambulance leaking coolant.  We at the time had a new 450 Power Stroke due to be delivered.  I asked him what was going to become of the old truck when the new one arrived and he said .."included in the new one as a trade-stupid we should have kept it as a back uP'.  I said.."well as a taxpayer I think that was the right move".  He says.."you wouldn't feel that way if the new one went down and you had a heart attack".  I said..."wrong- I would take my chances on mutual aid showing up at my house in their new 450 rather than relying on this "back up" that would be kept in an unheated building with the mice eating all the wiring on it".  He walked away-no clue .

[blackdog2]

Our town went and bought Internationals -2 they have to keep a loner on hand they cant go week without breaking down the 2 chevys have flat beds on them know for lawn mowers .They did swap out on RT 95 rest area cause it quit on the way to YALE hospital

[bulldogboy]

Red Horse:

Just my two cents on these topics:

1. The way I understand it is that the Homeland Security Grants were originally intended for areas that were most prone to terrorist attacks after 9/11. But, as these things usually

     turn out, other places wanted their share too so the program was extended to everybody. I know of small towns in the middle of no place that received money for fire tankers

     and other gear not related to security threats. They have become Assistance to Firefighter grants.

2.  Mini-pumpers have their place and, like every other tool, should be used as intended. In New Hampshire they are used in smaller communities as first run vehicles for EMS and

     to access narrow country roads and long, winding driveways. There are some really nice units around but they are not intended to replace full size pumpers.

3.  Boston EMS has long used ambulances mounted on GMC 5500 chassis but when GMC got out of the medium business, Boston switched to IHC "TerraStar" chassis. Interestingly,

     Boston recently ordered 12 new Braun ambulances to be mounted on Ford F-450 chassis.

4. Interesting little uproar in Springfield Township, OH, home to the Navistar manufacturing plant. Seems that the local fire department ordered a new ambulance to be built on a

    Dodge chassis rather than an IHC chassis. Navistar is not too pleased and made it known that the Dodge is built in Mexico.

5. Do you have any pictures of your town's R-600 pumper?

6. Why does this type out double spaced? Takes up more room than necessary.

                                bulldogboy

[Red Horse]

2 hours ago, bulldogboy said:

Red Horse:

Just my two cents on these topics:

1. The way I understand it is that the Homeland Security Grants were originally intended for areas that were most prone to terrorist attacks after 9/11. But, as these things usually

     turn out, other places wanted their share too so the program was extended to everybody. I know of small towns in the middle of no place that received money for fire tankers

     and other gear not related to security threats. They have become Assistance to Firefighter grants.

2.  Mini-pumpers have their place and, like every other tool, should be used as intended. In New Hampshire they are used in smaller communities as first run vehicles for EMS and

     to access narrow country roads and long, winding driveways. There are some really nice units around but they are not intended to replace full size pumpers.

3.  Boston EMS has long used ambulances mounted on GMC 5500 chassis but when GMC got out of the medium business, Boston switched to IHC "TerraStar" chassis. Interestingly,

     Boston recently ordered 12 new Braun ambulances to be mounted on Ford F-450 chassis.

4. Interesting little uproar in Springfield Township, OH, home to the Navistar manufacturing plant. Seems that the local fire department ordered a new ambulance to be built on a

    Dodge chassis rather than an IHC chassis. Navistar is not too pleased and made it known that the Dodge is built in Mexico.

5. Do you have any pictures of your town's R-600 pumper?

6. Why does this type out double spaced? Takes up more room than necessary.

                                bulldogboy

B-Dog

Thx for explanation on the HS grants.  I wrote quite a few successful grants for use as intended and also had some very valid ones rejected-really pissed me off when the town got that truck-never heard of the Assistance to fFrefighter grants

I hear you on intended use and agree-I believe we have enough "front line" capabiity and the mini would provide a good compliment to the existing fleet.  I wonder if the Boston decision was a "low bid" or disatisfaction with the Navistars-the easrlier Navistsars were 4300's I think that had DT-466's but I think the later ones were Durastars with the International built "Power Stroke" .  Of course the new Fords-assuming diesels will be the Ford built 6.7 Power Stroke.

I'll see if I can get a picture of the R model.

[kscarbel2]

Rosenbauer Specialty Vehicles

http://www.rosenbauer.com/en/rosenbauer-world/vehicles/special-vehicles/forest-firefighting-vehicles.html

http://www.rosenbauer.com/fileadmin/sharepoint/products/specialvehicles/INTERN_Interschutz_2015/Prospekte_Sonderfahrzeuge_neu/rb_gbk_broschure_sonderfahrzeuge_EN_216x303_2015-05-11_v22_sj.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Red Horse]

On 3/29/2016 at 10:29 PM, bulldogboy said:

Red Horse:

Just my two cents on these topics:

1. The way I understand it is that the Homeland Security Grants were originally intended for areas that were most prone to terrorist attacks after 9/11. But, as these things usually

     turn out, other places wanted their share too so the program was extended to everybody. I know of small towns in the middle of no place that received money for fire tankers

     and other gear not related to security threats. They have become Assistance to Firefighter grants.

2.  Mini-pumpers have their place and, like every other tool, should be used as intended. In New Hampshire they are used in smaller communities as first run vehicles for EMS and

     to access narrow country roads and long, winding driveways. There are some really nice units around but they are not intended to replace full size pumpers.

3.  Boston EMS has long used ambulances mounted on GMC 5500 chassis but when GMC got out of the medium business, Boston switched to IHC "TerraStar" chassis. Interestingly,

     Boston recently ordered 12 new Braun ambulances to be mounted on Ford F-450 chassis.

4. Interesting little uproar in Springfield Township, OH, home to the Navistar manufacturing plant. Seems that the local fire department ordered a new ambulance to be built on a

    Dodge chassis rather than an IHC chassis. Navistar is not too pleased and made it known that the Dodge is built in Mexico.

5. Do you have any pictures of your town's R-600 pumper?

6. Why does this type out double spaced? Takes up more room than necessary.

                                bulldogboy

Bulldog-here are some pix-sorry could not get it outside.

[fxfymn]

Bolton MA?

[Red Horse]

2 hours ago, fxfymn said:

Bolton MA?

10-4, Apples and High taxes!

[fxfymn]

Spent some time there as a youth. My grandfather owned an orchard in Ashland, where I grew up, and we used to deliver apples to a cider mill in Bolton if I remember correctly. 

I guess times have changed in Bolton. Never thought they would have the kind of money to buy what you described.

[bulldogboy]

Bolton, MA Engine 5, 1981 Mack "R"/Moody, 500/2100. Edward G. Moody and Son of Nashua, NH was a builder of oil tankers primarily but they also built quite a few

fire trucks, mostly tankers. They went out of business in the early '80s so Bolton's truck is probably one of the few Moodys still in service. Bolton had a fleet of Macks

at one time: a 1969 Mack "R" pumper, a 1975 "MB", 1000/750 pumper, and a 1945 Type "45" pumper. Back in the early '70s there were a lot of musters in the

Nashoba valley and I remember the Bolton team's shirts had a picture of the '45 on them. I  go down I-495 quite a bit, going through Bolton. occasionally stopping

at the convenience store at Exit 27.

Red Horse, thanks for the photos.

               bulldogboy

[Red Horse]

1 hour ago, bulldogboy said:

Bolton, MA Engine 5, 1981 Mack "R"/Moody, 500/2100. Edward G. Moody and Son of Nashua, NH was a builder of oil tankers primarily but they also built quite a few

fire trucks, mostly tankers. They went out of business in the early '80s so Bolton's truck is probably one of the few Moodys still in service. Bolton had a fleet of Macks

at one time: a 1969 Mack "R" pumper, a 1975 "MB", 1000/750 pumper, and a 1945 Type "45" pumper. Back in the early '70s there were a lot of musters in the

Nashoba valley and I remember the Bolton team's shirts had a picture of the '45 on them. I  go down I-495 quite a bit, going through Bolton. occasionally stopping

at the convenience store at Exit 27.

Red Horse, thanks for the photos.

               bulldogboy

B-dog

thx for the history. Remember the 69 R and the MB.  The MB was converted to a DPW sander-until a women blew a stop sign, hit it and it rolled over.! Don't remember the "type 45+-unless that is a American LaFrance which is the current muster truck.  the current R is a Triplex-someone was thinking of its "afterlife"!  give me a heads up next time you are headed for the Country Cupboard.

[j hancock]

Merk's maroon R model pickup truck is ex Bolton #2 fire truck R685F1001.  Yup, VIN #1.

I didn't know who I was bidding against on ebay, but I didn't bid enough.  Think it was around 2005.

[Red Horse]

11 hours ago, j hancock said:

Merk's maroon R model pickup truck is ex Bolton #2 fire truck R685F1001.  Yup, VIN #1.

I didn't know who I was bidding against on ebay, but I didn't bid enough.  Think it was around 2005.

Jim,  I never knew the history of Merk's truck-thx.  Some of these fire trucksgo for unbelievable numbers.  A town on Cape-to remain nameless-sold a 237 powered pumper about three years ago- friend attended the bid opening-that did not happen.  Truck went to a "local".  Yank the 5 speed, put a 6 speed in, shorten up WB and you would have a single axle dump for a lifetime!

[fxfymn]

And for us fire truck guys it stilll causes a tear to think any number one was cut up.

[Red Horse]

4 hours ago, fxfymn said:

And for us fire truck guys it stilll causes a tear to think any number one was cut up.

I hear you-just the practical side of me

[bulldogboy]

Red Horse:

Was that "nameless" Cape fire truck a chrome yellow "R" model? 

               bulldogboy

[Red Horse]

22 hours ago, bulldogboy said:

Red Horse:

Was that "nameless" Cape fire truck a chrome yellow "R" model? 

               bulldogboy

Hmnn- you DO get around!

[bulldogboy]

Bolton, MA has received its 2016 Rosenbauer "Commander" 1500/750/30A, 4X4 pumper. This new Engine 5 replaces the 1981 Mack "R"/Moody pumper. Another Mack and one of the last surviving

Moody fire trucks rides off to that big fire station in the sky.

                            bulldogboy