difference between DPF and DEF trucks and costs

[Keffer inc]

I;m looking at newer trucks to haul containers over highway. Most trucks in my price range  ($20,000-25,000)  do not have the DEF. As far as ownership costs go, is it more expensive (and more downtime) to own an older (2008-2010) DPF truck vs a newer truck that also uses DEF? I hear my friends that have KW trucks have to stop sometimes to re-gen and that it can take upward of 45 minutes. Its my understanding that a truck with DEF doesnt make you stop to re-gen?  Is there a higher cost in owning a truck prior to DEF? 

So basicly I need someone to school me on newer trucks, I still drive a 1999 CH613 and have no clue how to pick a newer truck as far as exhaust crap goes. I can spec the ratios and stuff like that, just need the help on emissions. 

[Jarhead Enterprises]

The 2010/2014 emission engines with SCR technology are a much better investment to me than the 2007 emission engines which just used a DPF filter without SCR. They are superior in terms of fuel economy, service intervals (DPF cleaning is now scheduled at 400,000 miles as opposed to 250,00) and overall I think they are much more reliable.

 

 

[hatcity]

keep the 99.

less computer crap to gum up the works

[Keffer inc]

I can't keep the 99 clean. It's always leaking oil from the engine and rears. And I I want to long haul with my lease company, I need to upgrade to a newer truck. 

[Jarhead Enterprises]

Look at something with an MP8-445E engine and M-Drive with 264 or 279 rears - will pull fine and get good fuel economy.

 

[Keffer inc]

I hear everyone singing praises about M drive and everyone likes them, but I'm afraid I'll end up with a problem somewhere and get stranded or it will get stuck in between gears like a Freightliner. Like I said, I hear they're great and no problems yet, but I just don't know. I need to drive one I guess and see. Are they direct drive for final ratio?

[Jarhead Enterprises]

Our BIGGEST challenge with selling the M-Drive is trying to sell it to someone who has owned or driven any competitor truck with the Eaton autoshift or ultrashift transmission. I was Director of Maintenance and ran a fleet of 500 tractors years ago in Florida that was nearly 100% auto shift and they drove me nuts. The owner go so fed up they went back to sticks, but are now nearly 100% I-Shift. The Mack M-Drive/Volvo I-Shift are completely different components  designed to be specifically what they are; 12 speed automated shift manual transmissions. They were a clean white sheet design, not a reconfiguration, ad-on or retrofit of something else. Also they were designed to effectively communicate with the Mack and Volvo engines ECM's. The M-Drive is a 12 speed available in direct or overdrive rated to 2050 ft.lb. torque. The vocational version is the M-Drive HD available in 12, 13 and 14 speed configurations also rated to 2050 ft/lb. torque. Nearly 80% of all the trucks leaving the Mack factory today are M-Drives. The standard warranty is 60/750,000 and the clutch has a 36/350,000 warranty on new trucks. Drive one for yourself and make up your own mind.

[kscarbel2]

The best engine/AMT transmission currently available in North America is the Mercedes-Benz OM472 and PowerShift 3, known here as the DD15 and DT12.

I don't like availability limited to Freightliner and Western Star, but the Cascadia is a state-of-the-art truck, and WS will still build you a traditional truck (very popular in Oz and NZ).

Anyway, you'd be pleased with a DT12. (ZF's As Tronic AMT is also superb, but not available in the states)

Having said all that, "today's" Eaton UltraShift Plus, for highway or vocational, is a sorted-out high-performing AMT.

Another option, it would be prudent of you to give these folks a call for a quote on a new non-emissions truck.........http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/45777-fitzgerald-glider-kits/

 

[br549]

If all I could afford is $20-$25,000 I would spend it on my 99 model.  Oil leaks should be no problem to repair, remack diff and maybe even a remack engine.  I know some 2008 that have spent $35,000 on just the engine, along with continued problems.  If I was buying another truck it would be NEW with extended warranty.  The day of buying used truck is not like it was 20 years ago, too much stuff to go wrong.

[fjh]

3 hours ago, br549 said:

If all I could afford is $20-$25,000 I would spend it on my 99 model.  Oil leaks should be no problem to repair, remack diff and maybe even a remack engine.  I know some 2008 that have spent $35,000 on just the engine, along with continued problems.  If I was buying another truck it would be NEW with extended warranty.  The day of buying used truck is not like it was 20 years ago, too much stuff to go wrong.

What he said!

I 'm school and in my opinion M drive I shift is for big fleets who can AFFORD to put a clutch in one! Most of these trucks come programmed to start out in third empty / bobtail ! We have had some that have worn out just over the warranty  period people Are stuck with buying a clutch from MACK OR Volvo,They ain't ,cheap and you can't go to Napa To get one , Entrapment is all these auto trans are For the average O/O not a smart Buy! When you replace a clutch the flywheel is likly to be worn beyond tolerances WHICH are very tight! YET another Big Bag of money to throw away after you get your DPF replaced yada yada!If you insist on a newer ride  At the very least stick with a standard trans ! one less headache ,Yes M drive is nice to drive But there is a Bigger picture here! Remember this is the new era Of the 5 yr truck! Not your 1999 20 year truck

KScarbel has the thing to do posted To bad they dont do macks but they got the right Idea and trucks for O/Ops

You just won't be able to haul to california OHWELL!

Edited July 3, 2016 by fjh

[kscarbel2]

Five reasons not to buy a used Mack-branded Volvo.

1. It will have Delphi unit pump injection. Delphi is the worst (and smallest) supplier in the diesel engine injection segment.

2. Ongoing injector cup issues

3. Crankcase oil diesel fuel dilution is a huge problem. Trucks are running with shocking quantities of diesel fuel pumping thru the lubrication system. When Mack dealers contact Volvo, they're told to let the customer keep running.......Volvo will stand behind it. That's a bad call....fix the problem! And while the original owner is covered, what happens when that truck enters the second-hand truck market and is purchased by an unsuspecting owner? He will be the recipient of a shocking overhaul bill when the engine fails. By my thinking, what Volvo is doing is unethical and immoral.

4. Volvo's strategy is to design the truck so that you are forced to bring it to the dealer, for greater profit on their ledger. The I-Shift AMT (rebadged as mDrive) is a case in point. 

5. A brand is only as good as the people who lead it. Volvo remains clueless about the US market, one key reason being they refuse to listen to the Mack dealer body, and view them as equals. And, of the the Mack brand management, not a single person has a background in the truck industry. It shows, with a very unhappy dealer network and stagnant sales. 

[fjh]

On 7/3/2016 at 10:26 AM, kscarbel2 said:

Five reasons not to buy a used Mack-branded Volvo.

1. It will have Delphi unit pump injection. Delphi is the worst (and smallest) supplier in the diesel engine injection segment.

2. Ongoing injector cup issues

3. Crankcase oil diesel fuel dilution is a huge problem. Trucks are running with shocking quantities of diesel fuel pumping thru the lubrication system. When Mack dealers contact Volvo, they're told to let the customer keep running.......Volvo will stand behind it. That's a bad call....fix the problem! And while the original owner is covered, what happens when that truck enters the second-hand truck market and is purchased by an unsuspecting owner? He will be the recipient of a shocking overhaul bill when the engine fails. By my thinking, what Volvo is doing is unethical and immoral.

4. Volvo's strategy is to design the truck so that you are forced to bring it to the dealer, for greater profit on their ledger. The I-Shift AMT (rebadged as mDrive) is a case in point. 

5. A brand is only as good as the people who lead it. Volvo remains clueless about the US market, one key reason being they refuse to listen to the Mack dealer body, and view them as equals. And, of the the Mack brand management, not a single person has a background in the truck industry. It shows, with a very unhappy dealer network and stagnant sales. 

AMEN

[Jarhead Enterprises]

EVERY OEM and dealer wants to drive business back to the dealerships and it is the strategy of every OEM and dealer to do all they can to drive business back to the dealerships - I don't care if you sell trucks, cars, bulldozers or washing machines - the entire dealer network of any OEM would fail otherwise. Unless you have been a GM or a manager at a dealership you cannot really understand the high level of fixed costs, employee training requirements, dealer operating standards and daily expenses required to open your doors everyday. Customers and drivers are demanding truck dealers stay open extended hours to include nights and weekends - there are real costs to those demands and if the dealer cannot capture enough of the parts and service business the dealership will fail and close down. There is a reason you see growth in dealer networks and the reduction in 1 dealership owners - they simply cannot afford to provide the extended hours, amenities and service capabilities demanded in today's trucking business. Truck sales used to be the driving force of a dealership but not anymore. You MUST have parts and service to survive.

[mowerman]

i run a def tractor stay away from them if you can.....just another unnessasary expence....put about 10 gallons a week in it for 3000 miles,,,and yes you still have to regen if it spends too much time in the city....mine usually doesnt.truck runs mostly in california and that state requires them .....good luck...bob

[fjh]

 

11 hours ago, Jarhead Enterprises said:

You MUST have parts and service to survive.

So having said that, one would think that your OEM would be going to bat for you as a dealer to achieve the best pricing on parts that they could possibly get for you so you could compete with the likes of KW IHC, Freightliner and supply AT A  REASONABLE Cost Training - Have an roving trainer that travels about to areas  of the country  DEALER SUPPORT and the specialty tools to work on these over tecked units. In the case of the essential tools, most are over-priced for what they are, and some are down right useless tech tool was half-baked when it started and still is 3/4 baked Comparatively speaking to Insite which seems to be well thought thru and progressive.  And I'm not saying Cummins is the greatest thing since sliced bread either! I could go on and on ! The only person who stand to make a buck here is THE Big V. They make a buck off every level and do nothing in return except build  captive parts that they over charge for! KScarbel is correct in A lot of his statements here!

So to provide service to survive, you need good leadership. Not provided ! This says it all!

A brand is only as good as the people who lead it. Volvo remains clueless about the US market, one key reason being they refuse to listen to the Mack dealer body, and view them as equals. And, of the the Mack brand management, not a single person has a background in the truck industry. It shows, with a very unhappy dealer network and stagnant sales. 

 

[Keffer inc]

Thanks for the inputs.

1. I think one issue I'm faced with is everyone who is selling an older (2006-older) knows what the're selling, and asking way too much.  example is a 2006 CHU613 (SFA) and it has 1,200,000 and they value that truck at $32,000.

2. Another problem that I'm faced with is here in the Norfolk, VA area, the Port Of Virginia may soon (in a couple years)  require a clean running truck to enter the ports.

3. Most carries require a truck to be within 10 or 15 years old or newer. So its a grim picture I think to keeo the CH as my primary truck. (Plan on keeping for a spare)

4. Agreed on M-Drive. I've heard only Mack dealers can replace the clutch, and that it will wear sooner since gears dont get floated. I plan on finding a 13 or 18 speed, but maybe will settle for a 10 spd if the truck has everything else I want (APU, high HP, ) 

I'm currently haul containers, but have given thought to try step deck and flats,  or haul gasoline for Kenan.  Someone I can lease onto.  My credit isn't very good, so buying a new truck wont happen for me right now. I thought of getting a truck from Lone Mountain but they dont have the kind of trucks that I like.

I like CHU613 and to a less extent, the CXU613 with the 70" sleepers.

[mowerman]

if it will help you fedex ground seems to take pretty good care of thier owner  operators...i dont know how you would go about hiring on with them....i work for fedex freight and i hear alotta good storys about the package division..good luck....bob

[BillyT]

The joys of computerized equipment.I've converted two older cars and my  daily driver pickup back to "pre emission" specs . All carbureted .but we have no state inspection in Florida  and no emissions test in my county.however in the commercial truck world u have the annual inspection. Everywhere! The safety inspection. Is necessary.but the emissions will get worse every yr.! Be glad you're not running in ca.! I used to run the west coast when they passed nafta .the dot inspectors had rows of those junk mexican trucks lined up (to be rejected)!.

[Keffer inc]

I just read about the CXP613 trucks. I didnt really look at them because of lower horsepowe , (395HP)  but I read they do better than the older 427. They basicly have the newer dash and interior. But without all the DPF. Its a MP7 version of a 2006. What do you think about that?

[Dirtymilkman]

4 hours ago, Keffer inc said:

I just read about the CXP613 trucks. I didnt really look at them because of lower horsepowe , (395HP)  but I read they do better than the older 427. They basicly have the newer dash and interior. But without all the DPF. Its a MP7 version of a 2006. What do you think about that?

That is actually a very good motor. 

If you're going to run in this business you'll have to put up with emissions, regulations, permits and newer trucks eventually. The worst part is if you're an owner/operator with 1-5 trucks you can't afford to get a bad truck. Personally, I've had perfect luck with anything newer than 2014. But if I bought a truck and it was outta warranty and gave issues, it could bankrupt me. If you're gonna stay in the business, bite the bullet and buy new. Buy the extended warranty and trade at 4-5 years. Or park your old ch and lease a new truck for a year. 

[Wobblin-Goblin]

Interesting topic with thoughtful responses.

[upsman]

Unfortunately all anyone wants to sell anymore is auto shifts. There are too many guys out there that are driving trucks not truck drivers.

[Jarhead Enterprises]

Emissions are part of the industry - they are not going away. I advise customers to go with the MP8-445E engine with the M-Drive in overdrive configuration and premium shifter package with 2.64 or 2.79 rear end gears for over the road applications. Keep the horsepower under 460 and you will see significant savings on Purchased Coverages. I recommend the Mack Plan 2 with EATS and the HVAC coverage. Depending on how these coverages are structured your cost per mile will run out at less than $0.015. That is a pretty good value.

[Keffer inc]

I dont have enough credit and/or history and my numbers are low because I had a low paying job before and couldnt make ends meet then, doing much better now, but need to wait to buy a new truck, used is my only option for now. maybe the next truck.