Who designed/styled the Superliner?

[sodly]

I find vehicle design interesting.  We know Harley Earl gave us tail fins.  Larry Shinoda penned the Stingray Corvette.  Raymond Loewy designed many things including the Greyhound Scenicruiser and the Studebaker Avanti.  John DeLorean designed the GTO and Firebird at Pontiac.  Virgil Exner was responsible for the "forward look" at Chrysler in the late 50s.  

But does anyone know who designed the Superliner?  Was there one person largely responsible for it (doubtful)?  I realize it was apparently a take-off of an abandoned Brockway model but the still-born Brockway looked quite different from the Superliner (aside from sharing the same cab).  Someone... or some team of people.... (at Mack??) had to be responsible for the design.  Has anyone ever seen a design proposals for the Superliner?  Did Mack have a known design team in the 70s?  I've never seen a single pre-production Superliner photo, clay model or illustration.  Have any of you?  I wonder if the designer is still living.  Or if the Mack museum would know anything about it.  

Heck, for that matter who's responsible for the B and R model design?

Thanks!   

[Hobert62]

8 hours ago, sodly said:

 

Heck, for that matter who's responsible for the B and R model design?

Thanks!   

Somebody short and skinny.   

[j hancock]

Started at Brockway and finished at Mack.  Never heard any specific names or group of names for designers and engineers.

[Red Horse]

Hah- Hobert-very good response.  How about it KSC?

[DailyDiesel]

38 minutes ago, j hancock said:

Started at Brockway and finished at Mack.  Never heard any specific names or group of names for designers and engineers.

Correct.

[Superdog]

2 hours ago, Hobert62 said:

Somebody short and skinny.   

i'm not real tall but weigh 400 lbs and I fit in my Superliner just fine.

[sodly]

So nobody knows, eh?  I think it's interesting that we have some photos of the still-born Brockway yet nothing exists on the Mack version that was surely more fleshed-out and ultimately reached production.  Weird!  When I look at the Brockway "Superliner" and the Mack version I see little in common, except a big, square grille.  The fenders are completely different.  The Brockway version even has a set-back front axle for cryin' out loud!  Surely this truck must've gone through some significant re-designing at Mack.  For example, they were obviously trying to suggest the R model hood shape with the character line in the sides of the Superliner hood.  I'd really love to know "the rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say.    

[Hobert62]

Does anyone have a pic of the brockway handy?    I'd like to see.  

[41chevy]

37 minutes ago, Hobert62 said:

Does anyone have a pic of the brockway handy?    I'd like to see.  

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[Mike]

When I typed in to ask.com it said that the SuperLiner was designed in Austrailia and by Australians for the the trains for maximum horsepower and for their terrain. It did not give any one person's name as a designer. 

[Phase 1]

The trick here would be to separate the fact from the fiction - as surely there is some.

[sodly]

Not sure I'd trust ask.com for this information, lol.  I have read the Australia line before, too.  Seems odd to me that Mack would farm their flagship model design out to Australia.  

[TeamsterGrrrl]

That's the current Superliner they're talking about. The original Superliner preceded the internet so the search engines know little or nothing about it.

[daveigou]

I've seen the pictures and heard the arguments, but you start with a big frontal opening, a big box over the engine, there's only so many ways to do it, is it really that much different than a GMC General or a 4300 International?

[sodly]

1 hour ago, daveigou said:

I've seen the pictures and heard the arguments, but you start with a big frontal opening, a big box over the engine, there's only so many ways to do it, is it really that much different than a GMC General or a 4300 International?

Good point, Dave.  There are only so many ways to skin a cat.  But I've somehow always been skeptical of that "Missing Link" article.  It feels to me like someone trying to manufacture a controversy/mystery when one doesn't really exist. Even if Mack took the inspiration for the Superliner from Brockway, so what?  They owned Brockway.  Why would they go to such lengths to cover that up?  As the article says, "Mack representatives, to this day, deny any connection to the Brockway design."  Looking at the two trucks I tend to believe them.  I see little in common except, as Dave pointed out, the big square hood that lots of trucks began to sprout in the late 70s.  We know Mack tweaked the R model to fit larger and larger engines about as much as they could.  So it doesn't seem at all surprising that they eventually were forced to come up with something along the lines of the Superliner to better fit and cool the larger engines of the 80s. What would be surprising would be to learn that this truck's development is some big corporate secret, especially after all these years.  Someone at Mack must know how it really went down and who's responsible for the design work and how it all evolved. Surely multiple design proposals and prototypes were made or drawn before being approved/rejected by management.  New flagship models like that don't just pop up out of thin air.  Lots of design work goes into them... even if maybe to us it just appears that they stuck a big square hood on an R model.  Anyway, I just find the whole thing curious and have always wondered about it.  Thought maybe someone here might know more than what's in that Missing Link article.     

[daveigou]

The Brockway used a Mack cab, so it's halfway there. The story that makes the most sense to me was there was a segment of truck business Mack was missing out on, the high horsepower over the road market. I heard that then CEO Hanson left his engineers know in no uncertain terms they needed to come up with an offering that went head to head in that 400 horsepower and up market, and would accommodate vender engine choices, so they answered with the Superliner. The basic configuration, a cab with an engine room out front, it is what it is. Not trying to rain on Brockway's parade, I too am sad to see Brockway's demise, but there may be other reasons.

[BillyT]

Interesting the ist freightliner conventional came out in 77 or 78 too,lotta stuff going on trucking wise those years! Also the Gmc General as someone mentioned.Made one run in a general,nice truck but the previous driver trashed the interior. Inexcusable! That brockway/mack hybrid kinda resembles the failed diamond reo raider! That truck was marketed directly at the " high end" owner operators.They advertised the heck out of that truck in the Midwest.Truck stop showings etc.

[farmer52]

A question for the Mack Museum and its staff to answer.  Wasn't the Gen I Superliner manufactured in Hayward?  Did Hayward have a design studio?

[kscarbel2]

On 8/25/2016 at 8:20 PM, Red Horse said:

Hah- Hobert-very good response.  How about it KSC?

Gentlemen, I can't recall if the Super-Liner was designed in Allentown, or by the staff of Mack Western in Hayward (which was headed by Allentown engineers and included west coast engineers we'd lured away from competitors).

Back then, it took us on average five years to design a truck from scratch and launch it.

Introduced in 1977, the first generation Super-Liner program (RWL/RWS) was established under Zenon C.R. Hansen (he retired on July 31, 1974 from his positions as board chairman and CEO). It was obvious that Mack Western needed a long nose conventional to compete in the western market. Walter M. May would have been deeply involved in the project, being COO and Vice President of Engineering. Sadly, we lost this legendary member of the Mack family last year.

[1965]

The man that is responsible for the R is the man!!!

[Brocky]

First Brockway made both the 761 set back front axle and the 760 set forward axle so the new "Super Liner" truck could have been built either or both ways.  By 1975-6 you could get a Brockway with a glass tilt hood. There are some around.. Second Sheller Globe made these cabs as well as the R model, even though it looks like a R model cab there were some differences, especially in the cowl area and they are not totally interchangeable.. By the time of Paul's pictures the long square hood was already built and Brockway was playing mostly with headlights,grilles and bumpers. Look at that straight on picture the headlights are different sided to side. Third one of the main reasons Mack closed Brockway was labor problems. The wheels at the union put the workers out on strike even though the workers were willing to work without a contract til things could be settled.

[Red Horse]

34 minutes ago, Brocky said:

First Brockway made both the 761 set back front axle and the 760 set forward axle so the new "Super Liner" truck could have been built either or both ways.  By 1975-6 you could get a Brockway with a glass tilt hood. There are some around.. Second Sheller Globe made these cabs as well as the R model, even though it looks like a R model cab there were some differences, especially in the cowl area and they are not totally interchangeable.. By the time of Paul's pictures the long square hood was already built and Brockway was playing mostly with headlights,grilles and bumpers. Look at that straight on picture the headlights are different sided to side. Third one of the main reasons Mack closed Brockway was labor problems. The wheels at the union put the workers out on strike even though the workers were willing to work without a contract til things could be settled.

Seems to me when you look at the 760 and 761, it looks like you are splitting hairs vs Superliner.  Don't know what the radiator size was on the Brockways but they had to be bigger-or at least had the potential to be bigger it would seem than an R Model.  Also was the 12-71 ever offered in the 760/1? 

In any case Brocky's point on the labor issue foots with everything I have read.  

Then again, how many times have we seen this script repeated?   Always the same result.  One company buys out a competitor, keeps the flag alive for a while then the "synergism" issue kicks in.  "Why do we need this duplication of staff? manufacturing resources? blah blah".  Hate to say it, but think those questions aren't being raised in Sweden on a regular basis?

Master stroke had to be Daimler.  They gave idiot Jac Nasser at Ford 300 million-after Ford spent how many million redesigning HN-80? and in essence bought a consistent 20% share of class 7 and about 9 or 10% of class 8

[sodly]

2 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

Walter M. May would have been deeply involved in the project, being COO and Vice President of Engineering. Sadly, we lost this legendary member of the Mack family last year.

I wonder if anyone else involved in the project is still alive and could shed some light on the subject.

[kscarbel2]

On 8/26/2016 at 9:30 AM, sodly said:

I wonder if anyone else involved in the project is still alive and could shed some light on the subject.

I was about to suggest Winton J. (Win) Pelizzoni, but I see he passed on March 18, 2011.

Our one-time sales manager of Sales Engineering*, Terry Warmkessel could tell you.

* Not to be confused with Mack "Service Engineering".

[daveigou]

You mean Jerry Warmkessel?