EPA verses Alaska

[41chevy]

3 hours ago, Hobert62 said:

I'm not sure what all this means, but I'm still stocking up on toilet paper.   

and Fritos

[Hobert62]

I picked up a load of fresh shoofly pies this morning in Reading.    Maybe I should have grabbed some. 

[RowdyRebel]

What "bait" is that? The fact that your side fails to abide by the Constitution, imagining new powers into it every day while at the same time turning a blind eye to the actual text of the document? Or perhaps your undying support for anyone looking to increase governmental control over the daily goings on of as many individual citizens as possible? Maybe it is just your disdain for anyone with the testicular fortitude to say "ENOUGH!" and insist upon their representatives abiding by the Constitution? Whether it is Obamacare (which has NEVER had a majority of support in ANY poll), abortion, illegal immigration, or any number of issues, the Democrats are not only on the wrong side of the Constitution and our founding principals, but also on the wrong side of the American people! This is WHY Democrats have lost 1000 or so seats in governorships, state legislatures, county boards all of the way down the ballot to dog catcher. Gone are the days of JFK telling folks to "Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country!" Now, the Democrats are all about greed. They seek power, and will promise anyone everything under the sun in order to get it..."free" health care..."free" phones..."free" whatever else somebody might desire (but be too lazy to actually want to WORK for). Or have you forgotten the people in the news talking about "Once Obama is elected, I won't have to worry about making my mortgage payments, or putting gas in my car..." They voted for him expecting all of that stuff to be paid for...and he tried. More debt added under Obama than by every single one of his predecessors COMBINED. JFK would be booted out of today's Democratic party faster than the blink of an eye...and that's a shame. When one side of the aisle is hell-bent on "fundamentally changing" everything about this Country than has allowed it the success and prosperity we have enjoyed...and the other side sits on their hands and ALLOWS it to happen for fear of being called "racist" because the POTUS happened to be 1/2 black, well we end up in a situation where the world is on fire. Friendly regimes have been overthrown and extremists have taken their place. Allies have been betrayed and our enemies have stopped taking us seriously. I really do hope the GOP follows through with their threat to withhold ALL funding to the UN until that recently passed anti-Isreal resolution is repealed. Obama was a fool for allowing the US to abstain from that vote allowing it to pass...but then what else would you expect from a community organizer who voted "present" more often than not in the state house?

 

Obama was a joke, but nobody is laughing. Now, he's going to do the unprecedented...sticking around to make his successor's job as difficult as possible. Real classy people them Obamas. Whatever. January 20 can't get here soon enough.

[Underdog]

Rowdy, may as well stop while you're behind, you're just digging yourself a deeper hole. It's well settled law that the feds can set pollution standards for the whole country, and those laws apply even in non contagious states. As for the "sovereign citizen" argument, good luck using that one as a defense!

I would like to live in a "non contagious" state. I forgot to get my flu shot this year.

[HeavyGunner]

On 1/3/2017 at 5:46 PM, gearhead204 said:

have you looked at the size of Alaska? it would take a half million acre forest fire to produce enough smoke to even get the Canadians attention! so I don't think that's an issue here.

Don't forget about the millions of acres of public land that burns up every year in the lower 48 since logging has basically been outlawed just like coal. Better to let it burn rather than make a useful product that could be sold or used. 

[BillyT]

Heavy Gunner,good point! Forest fires are natures way of thinning out the undergrowth that actually prevents TOO MANY forest fires! Sounds like a contradiction but it isn't! Responsible logging actually prevents forest fires! The softwood used mainly for paper,cardboard, and similar products grows quickly a foot or more a year! The problem as always is greed! Even this quick growing wood can be overharvested! Valuable hardwoods like oak and maple used for quality furniture grow more slowly and should be harvested carefully! As much as ! Deplore govt controls many big timber outfits would decimate the forests without them because of the profit associated with hardwood sales! The California redwood and similar trees that take a thousand years to reach full growth shouldn't be harvested at all.

[41chevy]

9 hours ago, HeavyGunner said:

Don't forget about the millions of acres of public land that burns up every year in the lower 48 since logging has basically been outlawed just like coal. Better to let it burn rather than make a useful product that could be sold or used. 

Ever notice when you pass a bakery of pizza shop you no longer smell the good aroma of cookies or pizza?   A number of years ago the EPA came up with requirement for "particle emissions"  from the baking ovens. But we learned here that that rule protects the neighboring states from . . . something..... 

Edited January 6, 2017 by 41chevy

[Hobert62]

1 hour ago, 41chevy said:

Ever notice when you pass a bakery of pizza shop you no longer smell the good aroma of cookies of pizza?   A number of years ago the EPA came up with requirement for "particle emissions"  from the baking ovens. But we learned here that that rule protects the neighboring states from . . . something..... 

The bakery I work for had to instal catalytic converter type things on our bread/bun ovens. Something about the smell of fresh baked bread.......

[gearhead204]

31 minutes ago, Hobert62 said:

The bakery I work for had to instal catalytic converter type things on our bread/bun ovens. Something about the smell of fresh baked bread.......

I would venture a guess that Opra was on another one of her diets and couldn't be chauffeured around with out smelling fresh bread and thus spoiling her diet, so with her democratic connections the EPA had to act !

[41chevy]

4 hours ago, Hobert62 said:

The bakery I work for had to instal catalytic converter type things on our bread/bun ovens. Something about the smell of fresh baked bread.......

Fresh baked bread,cookies and fresh from the oven pizza smells to me are heaven scent ( )

[HeavyGunner]

8 hours ago, BillyT said:

Heavy Gunner,good point! Forest fires are natures way of thinning out the undergrowth that actually prevents TOO MANY forest fires! Sounds like a contradiction but it isn't! Responsible logging actually prevents forest fires! The softwood used mainly for paper,cardboard, and similar products grows quickly a foot or more a year! The problem as always is greed! Even this quick growing wood can be overharvested! Valuable hardwoods like oak and maple used for quality furniture grow more slowly and should be harvested carefully! As much as ! Deplore govt controls many big timber outfits would decimate the forests without them because of the profit associated with hardwood sales! The California redwood and similar trees that take a thousand years to reach full growth shouldn't be harvested at all.

Agreed, but you should know a couple more facts that might help add to my pro logger view point. In Montana the forest service used to sell somewhere between 15 and 20 million board feet of timber that is selectively harvested and closely watched by foresters.  Now Montana public lands sells less than 1 million board feet and burns up 10 to 15 million every couple of years. Clear cuts and other poor practices have long been abandoned unless you're on private land which very little of the timbered area in Montana is. No one wants to see a healthier, productive forest then loggers. Notice in the 70's and 80's how few fires Montana had?  Thank a logger for getting rid of the extra fuel load as you pointed out and keeping the pine beetles from killing all our forests which is what we have now. Anywhere you drive here the needles on the trees are turning orange from beetle kill. Then it burns and wastes the timber and money on the firewatchers. 

[gearhead204]

3 hours ago, HeavyGunner said:

Agreed, but you should know a couple more facts that might help add to my pro logger view point. In Montana the forest service used to sell somewhere between 15 and 20 million board feet of timber that is selectively harvested and closely watched by foresters.  Now Montana public lands sells less than 1 million board feet and burns up 10 to 15 million every couple of years. Clear cuts and other poor practices have long been abandoned unless you're on private land which very little of the timbered area in Montana is. No one wants to see a healthier, productive forest then loggers. Notice in the 70's and 80's how few fires Montana had?  Thank a logger for getting rid of the extra fuel load as you pointed out and keeping the pine beetles from killing all our forests which is what we have now. Anywhere you drive here the needles on the trees are turning orange from beetle kill. Then it burns and wastes the timber and money on the firewatchers. 

I couldn't agree more ! during our fires of 14 and 15 we burned just south of a million acres here in Okanogan county, the thinned and grazed land (private) was mostly a ground fire that didn't damage the trees or soil, and easily recovered from the fire. The state and federal ground that had been protected from human intervention was a inferno, that killed the trees and scorched the soil leaving many areas sterile (which causes erosion)  due to the mass destruction much of the timber was not salvaged because the mills couldn't process it quick enough. land owners were lucky to get timber removed after the fire as company's were not paying for burnt wood. and were swimming in offers to come and get it! thus our schools and other areas of our economy  that would have benefited from timber dollars did not. I am hopeful  the new administration will clean up some of our federal land and lessen the danger in our area. we too have major beetle damage in need of attention! I should also add that almost no federal timber was harvested after the fire, the government cant function quick enough to put up a timber sale after a fire, by the time they do none of the mills want to bid on the sale as the timber quality is compromised by that time.   

[TeamsterGrrrl]

For being such lovers of the "free market", you guys seem to have missed the whole reason for the lack of logging... Lack of demand for lumber due to the low number of housing starts and the pulp wood market is being hurt by the switch from paper to electronic communications. The Feds could declare "open season" for loggers, and the saws would still be quiet.

[Underdog]

For being such lovers of the "free market", you guys seem to have missed the whole reason for the lack of logging... Lack of demand for lumber due to the low number of housing starts and the pulp wood market is being hurt by the switch from paper to electronic communications. The Feds could declare "open season" for loggers, and the saws would still be quiet.

The lack of paper is replaced by Amazon cardboard boxes.

[RowdyRebel]

2 hours ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

For being such lovers of the "free market", you guys seem to have missed the whole reason for the lack of logging... Lack of demand for lumber due to the low number of housing starts and the pulp wood market is being hurt by the switch from paper to electronic communications. The Feds could declare "open season" for loggers, and the saws would still be quiet.

Lawsuits brought by tree-huggers, not to mention the regulatory hurdles put in place at the request of lobbyists for the tree-huggers, have played a much larger role than the decline in the housing market. Can you say "Spotted Owl"? Or any other number of alleged "threatened" species? That was part of the complaint the Bundy's had...a silly turtle that had lived side by side with their cattle for generations was now being used as the reason they couldn't graze their cattle on the land. It's all BS, and it all hurts us economically. When we can't use our own renewable resources, we get what we need elsewhere...like China...where their standards aren't quite as high. Or do you forget about the whole defective wallboard situation that was causing problems for folks? We're better off producing our own building supplies...and we'd have the capability of doing so without the interference from the know-nothings.

 

When I was in college (Forestry major), the Shawnee Nat'l Forest was redoing their management plan. Public comment forums were interesting...especially when some tree-hugger would get up and say how prescribed burning shouldn't be allowed because fires aren't caused naturally.

 

There are many types of people, to varying degree of intelligence. Seems the less intelligent they are, the more the politicians and bureaucrats listen to them.

[gearhead204]

3 hours ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

For being such lovers of the "free market", you guys seem to have missed the whole reason for the lack of logging... Lack of demand for lumber due to the low number of housing starts and the pulp wood market is being hurt by the switch from paper to electronic communications. The Feds could declare "open season" for loggers, and the saws would still be quiet.

I live in a pac-rim state we  could export more wood than we saw, but foreign markets are very picky about their timber,  liberals would rather see it burn than support rural community's and schools. the enviro's have launched suit on every timber sale the state issued in the 90's and 2000's. The state has won a few in recent years, but not enough to get caught up on the damaged timber.

[41chevy]

1 hour ago, gearhead204 said:

I live in a pac-rim state we  could export more wood than we saw, but foreign markets are very picky about their timber,  liberals would rather see it burn than support rural community's and schools. the enviro's have launched suit on every timber sale the state issued in the 90's and 2000's. The state has won a few in recent years, but not enough to get caught up on the damaged timber.

Don't waste your time. She hates the country and everything not teamster related and not favoring the democrats. One who thrives on the failures of the country. Probably cheers every time the country stumbles.  An aged 60's hippy progressive and bitter about life.

[Brocky]

If she ran her mouth at work as much as she does here, she probably needed all her teamster rules and help to stay employed..

[HeavyGunner]

6 hours ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

For being such lovers of the "free market", you guys seem to have missed the whole reason for the lack of logging... Lack of demand for lumber due to the low number of housing starts and the pulp wood market is being hurt by the switch from paper to electronic communications. The Feds could declare "open season" for loggers, and the saws would still be quiet.

I disagree, the timber industry started taking a steep decline in the late 80's.  The majority of the mills that closed in Montana all happened well before the 2008 housing crash. Tree huggers filing multiple frivolous lawsuits killed the timber industry here. Have you ever seen how much timber we import? I have, I watch train loads of it go by every week and I see the local reload station where Canadian trucks bring in lumber to be distributed here. The open market works when you're not handcuffed by EPA, tree huggers and every other bs group that tries to shut any industry down. The same people who drive their cars to an oil drilling protest. 

https://ncfp.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/montana-mill-closures-4_6_2010.pdf

Edited January 6, 2017 by HeavyGunner
Added content

[gearhead204]

1 hour ago, HeavyGunner said:

I disagree, the timber industry started taking a steep decline in the late 80's.  The majority of the mills that closed in Montana all happened well before the 2008 housing crash. Tree huggers filing multiple frivolous lawsuits killed the timber industry here. Have you ever seen how much timber we import? I have, I watch train loads of it go by every week and I see the local reload station where Canadian trucks bring in lumber to be distributed here. The open market works when you're not handcuffed by EPA, tree huggers and every other bs group that tries to shut any industry down. The same people who drive their cars to an oil drilling protest. 

https://ncfp.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/montana-mill-closures-4_6_2010.pdf

Exactly !  same thing here heavy haul route from the boarder to Oroville Wa. to get reloaded onto train cars,  our local mill is a 1/4 mile away  from the reload and struggling to stay open, the only thing that keeps them going is they have the largest head gear left in the state, so the oversize gets shipped to them.  about the only heathy forest in the county belongs to the Colville Confederated Tribe, pretty damn sad that the Indians are better land managers that all of the well educated liberals trying to manage our lands!...........perhaps common sense is the key   

[TeamsterGrrrl]

Our logging industry in Minnesota isn't having all those problems, and Minnesota has so many environmentalists that it's practically an ATM for the Sierra Club. Looks to me that your just trying to find something else to blame on democrats, and ignore the market forces that are the real cause of shrinking employment in logging, coal, mining, oil, and agriculture. 

[TeamsterGrrrl]

5 hours ago, 41chevy said:

Don't waste your time. She hates the country and everything not teamster related and not favoring the democrats. One who thrives on the failures of the country. Probably cheers every time the country stumbles.  An aged 60's hippy progressive and bitter about life.

Waste your hate elsewhere. You don't even know me... I'm in fact fighting the environmentalist's attempt to ban copper mining in Minnesota.

[HeavyGunner]

16 minutes ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

Our logging industry in Minnesota isn't having all those problems, and Minnesota has so many environmentalists that it's practically an ATM for the Sierra Club. Looks to me that your just trying to find something else to blame on democrats, and ignore the market forces that are the real cause of shrinking employment in logging, coal, mining, oil, and agriculture. 

Let us know when you return from la la land. 

[Brocky]

1 hour ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

Waste your hate elsewhere. You don't even know me... I'm in fact fighting the environmentalist's attempt to ban copper mining in Minnesota.

Interesting statement!!! We know you just as well as any of the rest of us know each other.. ONLY by what we post here on this website.. Remember we are spread out from Australia to the States to Moscow, and there is a very slim chance that more than a half dozen have met face to face in person.

So just keep on digging your grave.. It makes good entertainment!!!

[41chevy]

1 hour ago, TeamsterGrrrl said:

Waste your hate elsewhere. You don't even know me... I'm in fact fighting the environmentalist's attempt to ban copper mining in Minnesota.

As you attack us? Actions speak enough to see your views on us whom support Trump and American work ethic