Wet sleeve issues on a E9?

[nslovacek]

I have come across something while doing an in frame on my '88 E9 that i have never seen before. The counterbore on the #6 cylinder is nearly two thousandths out of parallel with the deck from the front of engine to the back.  Rather the 2 o'clock position is the highest point at almost .002 over the ten o'clock  and 8 o'clock measurements. this is translated to the fire ring channel as well. I cleaned up the old liner and dropped it back in and it was the same. This made me concerned for the sleeve flange breaking or the piston running crooked and eating up the rod bearings. But I plastigaged them on disassembly and every single clearance was perfect at .002. Bearings where not undersized. There are many parts like injectors, rods, and such that are signed and dated '98, and as far as i can tell, it has been a very long time since this engine was opened up. Also the head gaskets where beautiful when I removed the heads no sign of anything leaking or loosing seal in anyway. Has anyone come across this before? And anyone have any ideas what to do about it? I don't know if it is the counterbore cut crooked or the whole sleeve bore milled at the wrong angle. I am concerned about breaking the flange or wasting the bearing, and yet the old stuff was good. The only other thing to note was I started to drop the exhaust valve seats on that cylinder. Which is what started this whole process. Any info, experience, or ideas how to move forward would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[fjh]

This is a problem that can be repaired How ever you have to have the tooling!!  Google OTC Counterbore cutting tool ! there  (were) shims available ! I would also look closely For a crack on that bore aswell ! Clean it up and inspect it with a magnifying glass! Cracks tend to appear near the 3 to six position  and where  there is less casting in the  block under the liner how ever not always!  The bearing issue you speak of is less problematic than coolant push which often accompanies  a cracked counter bore or Cracked liner Which by the way I also have seen!

Edited July 17, 2017 by fjh

[fjh]

Note !! if you dropped a seat you need to check the turbo!!!

An Old saying for a  Dropped  valve seat  = minum  fix  will be    Piston  ,liner , head , turbo  . This used to be a fairly common failure!

[nslovacek]

fjh, Got the turbo off already and going through it. Haven't found any damage but, I didn't eat the valve seat. I just heard something I didn't like when I got in off a run and started digging. So hopefully all is good in the turbo. I also have not found any cracks and I was not leaking any water. You think cutting the counter bore is enough to fix this or is the whole sleeve bored at an angle. I am not sure I got the tools to measure this. If the bore is at an angle and I parallel the bore with the deck, would I not run the risk of breaking the liner flange? And yet if I don't parallel the bore the fire ring might not seal. But the thing was sealed up good before. I keep going in circles on this thing. Your input is greatly appreciated.

[fjh]

You should get it squared up however you need the boring tool ! I  Urge you inspect that bore closely sand or emery cloth  wire wheel it and inspect specially in the areas where the block casting is narrow under the liner lip! 

[nslovacek]

I have been going over this thing with a fine tooth comb. Will continue to do so. Measure twice cut once so to speak. Will look for options on tooling. The mira counter bore tool is the only one that I am finding that is a universal design, the otc, kent moore, monaco all require cutters engine specific. Am I correct in this? 

[fjh]

Not sure on this We have K/M  does  866 -e7 - E9   I'm  not sure But  you could  likly  get cummins n14 isx  etc  for it, as well!

If there where a bad crack there was a  machine shop insert that could  be installed  as well Cummins had a similar  fix as well! Not uncommon For these blocks !

Edited July 17, 2017 by fjh

[Vladislav]

I would try to measure up the imparallelness, or more correctly to say, the rightness of the angle between the deck and the bore wall. Might be done by some common tools. You said 0.002 on the lower step. But the bore's (and the liner's) heigth is much more than ID of the bore, so the measurment along the wall would be more visible.

A friend of mine has Scania with D14 engine, which has a similar block with Mack 865 or 866. He had nearly 2 millions km on the clock when got a trouble with a liner set down. The matter was a worn (or pressed down?) lower liner seat. From talks he learned it's a common issue with those engines. Repaired it together with some other bores using counterbore tool and shims. Not sure he had that lower bore step out of parallel.

[mrsmackpaul]

can you use the spray can crack testing method type of thing for cracks 
We can buy the cans of dye in bearing suppliers out here 

It would be a shame to put it back together and still have a problem 

 

Paul

[nslovacek]

Paul that is what I am trying to avoid. I haven't found any cracks and that was not the reason for the in frame. I caught a valve seat dropping and pulled the heads before it came out. It was still seated just loose. While I had it open ran a bore gauge in the tops of cylinders and found them to be on the verge of falling out of speck so decided to do the in frame before parts get even harder to come by. Sent the heads to a machine shop here locally and they put all new seats in. The checked all the valves and where all still in spec even though I had them replace any that where in a seat that was loose. Got the heads back and they look good. It was when I started to measure everything and putting in the new liners that I found this one counter bore a problem. What makes me really curious is it is in cylinder that had bad valve seats. Could just be coincidence. I have cleaned and examined this hole with every trick I can think over short of magnaflux which I do not have the equipment for. All seems to be good except for the lack of parallelness between the counter bore and the deck. Going to try to check the squareness of the sleeve to the deck here after dinner. Not entirely sure how I am going to do that accurately enough to do any good. But really want to make sure that the cylinder bore is machined at the proper angle. If it is the counter bore that was messed up by some one previously, then to cut the new counter bore is all that is need. If the whole bore is sloped. I might be best to leave it be. It wasn't leaking before. 

[fjh]

K  instal the linerdri no orings clamp it down with some big flat washers measure the prostitution  see what you got the whole way around  the liner if it measures  the same all the way around then you may be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat!

Remember your allowed 2 thou diffrence between  cyl .5 to 4,5

[nslovacek]

fjh that has been the problem, the protrusion is off because the counter bore is off. It does not measure the same all the way around. It is two thousandths different from the 2 o'clock to the 8 o'clock position with the 2 being 2 thousandths higher. I have determined that the whole bore is definitely milled a little a skew of perpendicular to the crank. I used some dykem ink and inked the back side of the liner flange and where the orings sit at the bottom of the liner. I inserted the liner fully and wiggled it a bit at the bottom of the whole. The theory being that if the bore was straight and the counter bore off that the ink would rub off one side of the flange or just one side of the bottom of the sleeve. It didn't. The ink is removed evenly around the flange and the wear on the ink at the bottom was even and at a minimum as should be since there is supposed to be a few thousandths (.001-.003 i think) clearance at the bottom of the sleeve. So from the best that I can determine, is that, the counter bore and the bore are in the proper relationship to each other but the counter bore to the deck height is off 2 thousandths of an inch across the same cylinder. If I true the counter bore to the deck height the o rings at the bottom of the bore will center the liner leaving a space between the flange and the counter bore and potentially causing failure. I have about come to the conclusion that I am best to shim the liner to .005 thou at the 2 o'clock position and pray the fire ring compensates the difference. The book list 2 thou difference between cylinders but i think in this case it is going to have to work for the same cylinder. At least I think it was working before. 

[fjh]

Do have any machine shops in your area ? I honestly think you need to square that bore properly ! you ve gone to the expense  of getting a liner kit and repairing the heads ! If you were  a customer in my area I would recommend  Cutting both counter bores under that head and and shim them  both to 3-4 thou I'm  not sure if shims are even available anymore have you checked?

How ever you say you had no issues before so if it ran before with out issue it should run again I.m not saying that with confidence however just that in my mind you have two choices ! bore and shim or leave it alone !  Half shiming  Could be a disaster If that's what your thinking! the head should hold it square! If your going to install it untouched then use some anaerobic sealant under the lip of the liner it goes hard like locktight And will fill the void left by the out of squareness  just my thoughts! 

[nslovacek]

I am thinking of leaving alone. I was going to bore it. But I believe that the entire bore that the sleeve slides into is out of alignment and I am afraid that if I true the counter bore that is going to cause bigger problems. I have had good luck cutting my own shims in the past but a half shim is a bad idea because it is a gradual taper of the counter bore to the deck not a stepped height. If I bore the top out to get it parallel with the deck the bottom of the liner is going to be under pressure on one side and pushing the liner flange up. I have just never come across a block that would have been machined out of spec like that. How did this pass quality control. 

[fjh]

Not sure ! Unusual  For sure!  I have rebuilt a  dozen  V8s never run across that situation, usually cracked counter bores! I agree run with it the way it is!  I generally use  Ultra silicone under the flange How ever in this case I would use anaerobic as I said! Again just an opinion ! Be aware that there is an oring bulletin for the liner orings I may have it posted here on the site here  Can't remember! just search it!

[nslovacek]

This is the second v-8 mack for me and I don't know how many in lines and gasers. First I have seen. Throwed me for a loop for sure. Will do and thanks all for the input. 

[Vladislav]

Taking to account your experience with the ink the counterbore is in squareness with the bore. And making it parallel to the top deck would be mistake. On the other hand that fact states that the whole bore is not perpendicular to the crank shaft. But the imparallelnes is 0.002, so the total imperpendiculatness along the length of the piston travel must be about twice more (as more as the stroke length larger than the liner ID). And this figure to be count is less than the gap between the piston and the liner wall. So looks like not a big trouble. As for the imparallelness to the deck (what means to the head surface) I suppose the firering would compensate it easily.

The liner insquareness to the crank could rest some traces on the piston walls and compresson rings. Something like uneven wear. I would look over the piston and both check out the gap of the rings being put into the original sleeve and relate it to the other cylinders.

[AZB755V8]

I have a few of the V8's and will have to check for this condition when they are pulled down. I don't think .002 from deck to sleeve counter bore is out of line, so to speak. Isn't it in the manual .002 is in spec for parallelism?  That is a little thinker than a piece of hair (.0015).  Think that is all that it is the counter bore. If you are thinking the whole sleeve bore is out that would mean that the piston is side stepping at least .006-.008 from top to bottom of the stroke and rod a lot further at the crankshaft. Your rod bearing would have to show signs of a strange wear pattern if  this condition existed and I would think that rod and bearing failure would have happened long ago. 

I did not see that the deck was checked to flatness in all the post here. If the deck is not flat that would give you the .002 reading.  There are not any engines that I have had bored that the deck was flat to begin with. Heat cycles and working stress do tweek blocks over time. Pulling a good flat head down on a not so flat block will pull the block flat. 

A side note: I had a 400 Chevy done up for a race car. I assemble my own engines and did a check on the machine work before putting it together. It was decked, bored and alien honed. The bores were out of round by a lot, almost .003 in two or three cylinders. I did tell them to deck it and do the rest of the work with deck plates and main caps torqued, which they did. I took the block right back to the machine shop and said they owe me another block. When they torqued the plates on the block every bore was dead nuts zero. I've run that engine to 9,000 rpm's a lot and it is still fine. The point is checking the block with no stress on it is not the same as when everything is torques to spec. Did Mack use deck plates when machining the blocks? If they did I would certainly leave it along and put it back together the way it is.

Quality is a big issue with a lot of things, look at the reman Mack stuff anymore it is not what it use to be. The quality is just not there. Had a set of four reman head on an E9, went 16,000 miles and dropped a exhaust seat. It was a mess, piston, liner, head and turbo junk and out of warranty for time. The truck was not driven much, 16,000 in 7 years.

 

[fjh]

We sold a fair few V8 s here back in the day! Years ago Every once in a blu moon one would fail a rod bearing I wonder if this here situation is related to those failures we always ended up replacing the crank and rod on the failed Cyl  but Never had a chance to see a second failure! on the same engine ,I  Actually Was able to change one crank  with out pulling the heads  to get the rod out. I was able to pull the piston out the bottom  Because the failure was on number one !  one and eight are the only pistons that will come out thru the bottom!

Interesting issue!

Fred

[nslovacek]

I did check the block for flatness with a straight edge and feeler gauges. It is flat enough I could never see any light or get a gauge to slide under it. I was concerned for the operation of the rod and failure of the bearing as well. But as I was tearing down the engine I was plastigauging the oil clearances so I could get an idea of oil gaps to make sure I could order the right bearings. Crank is like a brand new one and the oil clearances where just about perfect on rods and mains at 2 thou all the way through the engine. If it was wearing uneven I would thing a taper would have been very noticeable at this point. The visual inspection of the sleeves and the piston indicated everything looked really good. I had to think long and hard about inframing this engine. I bore gauged it and specs looked really good. It was something that I thought I could get by with just glaze busting and putting it back together. I opted to go deeper because of the parts getting harder and harder to come by and I want to keep these two old trucks I got on the road as long as possible. Love these e-9s. I didn't find this out of parallelness until I was shimming the liner heights. It has definitely been a head scratcher. Putting it all back together I think is my best option, if it ain't broke don't fix it so to speak, but it isn't a decision I have the most confidence in for sure. 

My other truck is a truck I grew up on and know its history, this one that I am having issues with is a truck I got out of Ohio last year. Probably wasn't the truck I should have bought but once you have an e9 it is hard to look at anything else. 

[mack bldr]

When you shim your liners they should be at least 2.5 thou anything under that you can have fire ring issues anything over about 4 thou you can have water seepage to the outside if you can't find the shims you need from Mack you should be able to get them from a PAI dealer