Charlottesville

[Outbehindthebarn]

 

Moral equivalency is poor defense or argument to explain current events. The Nazi and Soviet regimes were both equally abhorrent in their beliefs and actions and I do not have to denounce both of them on equal terms to be upset with one group more than the next.

But you're right, I do have a bias against Nazis, Neo Nazis and all their feeble minded brethren.

There is no equivalency, and I made no such claim. Marxism is far and away more destructive.  

[41chevy]

 

Good men do not fight for bad causes.

By your statement than, there were 3,403,000 a**holes in Vietnam,  3,713,000 in the Civil War , 106,000 in the Indian Wars and 184,000 in the War of independence.

I do agree with Charles Schummer and Elizabeth Warren statement that "all monuments to all wars should be removed"

 

[TeamsterGrrrl]

You guys spend so much time living in the past, you'd think you'd at least get studied up on your history.

Marx promoted an economic theory, and what Lenin and Stalin created was a bastardization of Marx's theory at best. Communism was every bit as much a failure as fascism, and is almost as extinct, living on in paranoid remote places like North Korea. 

So find something useful to get all paranoid about.

[TeamsterGrrrl]

 

By your statement than, there were 3,403,000 a**holes in Vietnam,  3,713,000 in the Civil War , 106,000 in the Indian Wars and 184,000 in the War of independence.

I do agree with Charles Schummer and Elizabeth Warren statement that "all monuments to all wars should be removed"

 

Your numbers are off- less than a million served in the Confederate forces and many saw the stupidity of the Confederate position and deserted. Something less than half your number actually served in Vietnam, and many avoided combat as much as possible. The military's attempted genocide against the American Indian was a disgrace. And how come you've ignored the servicemembers who fought in the wars we had to fight such as World Wars One and Two?

[Mack Technician]

 

Moral equivalency is poor defense or argument to explain current events. The Nazi and Soviet regimes were both equally abhorrent in their beliefs and actions and I do not have to denounce both of them on equal terms to be upset with one group more than the next.

But you're right, I do have a bias against Nazis, Neo Nazis and all their feeble minded brethren.

Nothing Feeble about the original group. A country the size of Wisconsin over running a large swath of the continent. Think a lot of youth are foolishly attracted to the idea of power and conquering might associated with Nazi Germany.

The only thing keeping Europe safe right now is good availability of beer in Germany.  

[Mack Technician]

If "Odds and Ends" was the name of a tavern lots of folks would leave through the window.

 

[General Ike]

 

Because reading his posts he is obviously an a** hole republican nazi who should be hung . Power to you Union sister.

He's a nazi?  He's an a-hole?  He should be hung?  Is he these things because he is a republican?

Those statements are the epitome of hatred.  You people want tolerance for everything that you think is right and are intolerant of those who disagree with you and suggest that hard working, tax paying, law abiding veterans like Paul (41chevy) should be hung.

TeamsterGrrrl I call on you to immediately denounce this new person who is trying to align himself with you because of your teamster background.  You are a smart woman and we do not agree with each other on many topics but you are above this type of hate speech. 

[TeamsterGrrrl]

I've been called worse on this site, and the threats from some of the neo nazis and such in the old truck community are real enough that I've had to attend events incognito. So if the mod(s) throw off Teamsters Rule, they'd be throwing off the name callers and threateners on the other side too.

[General Ike]

 

I've been called worse on this site, and the threats from some of the neo nazis and such in the old truck community are real enough that I've had to attend events incognito. So if the mod(s) throw off Teamsters Rule, they'd be throwing off the name callers and threateners on the other side too.

I cannot believe that you refuse to denounce hate speech that calls for a member of this community to be hung.  What is wrong with you?  Why is that language acceptable to you?  How is that language ok to be associated with an organization (Teamsters) that you hold in such high regard.

[HeavyGunner]

 

I cannot believe that you refuse to denounce hate speech that calls for a member of this community to be hung.  What is wrong with you?  Why is that language acceptable to you?  How is that language ok to be associated with an organization (Teamsters) that you hold in such high regard.

It's exactly what my first post on this thread was about. It's ok for the the left to use any kind of violence, hate speech and many other things they preach against if someone else's view doesn't align with their own. I've had many conversations with others on here and sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't but I don't threaten people or go to blatant name calling like one person on here does. Conversation is good even if you don't agree with someone but flexing "keyboard muscles" is simply laughable and uncalled for. 

[Mack Technician]

I'm passing the moderator a cold beer out the window, saying thank you and closing the tavern window, breathing a sigh of relief that new knucklehead passed easily through the window jamb. Nice throw 41. I ring the drink bell and lay down a $50. 

[carlotpilot]

 

This is beyond ignorance... It is about creating a false narrative about whole groups of people (minorities, women, gays, etc.) complete with a faked "history", then encouraging the believers to take violent action against those groups. That's how a young man from Ohio ends up thinking it's OK to ram his car into counter protesters.

my first and only direct reply to you    go back and reread a true account of what was going on . if protesters had the good sense not to pelt someones car with bricks and rocks perhaps no one would have gotten hurt

[kscarbel2]

Based on my university history studies, the civil war wasn't just about slavery. The southern aristocracy felt that Washington had grown distant. A "disconnect" had formed between the aristocracy of the north and south (recall it was the aristocracy of 1776 that formed the country). Firmly believing their views were no longer being weighed, the southern states seceded. Now let's bear in mind, from 1776 to 1861, we're only talking 85 years since the country was formed.

Anyway, as Paul would say, it was another time and place, with different attitudes.

I myself take issue with people today who apply year 2017 standards to events that occurred in distant history, and make attempts to cleanse history (ie. vandals destroying a statue of Robert E. Lee).

One can't help but wonder if the vandals now plan to destroy every statue of slave owners Patrick Henry ("Give me liberty or give me death"), Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe and Andrew Jackson? 

And then, they need to get all those history books rewritten in the public schools.

*  Had Virginia not split apart, it would easily be the largest state on the east coast.

[kscarbel2]

Oliver Stone on Charlottesville: "Deep State" Is "Bigger Problem" Than Trump

Hollywood Reporter  /  August 15, 2017

The director spoke about the U.S. political system during a master class at the Sarajevo Film Festival.

Oliver Stone has said in response to the Charlottesville riots that the problem is not President Donald Trump, but "the system" in America.

"You are all trying to get to Trump every day, but there is a bigger problem," Stone said when asked what he thought of President Trump's initial failure to call out white supremacists in his response to the Charlottesville events.

"There is a system [in America], and that system existed before Trump," Stone said. "Putin said this is the fourth [U.S.] president where nothing has changed. There is a deep state, a military industrial security state. ... It is the system that has to be challenged. [Trump] is part of that system."

Stone reiterated: "It is the system that has to be challenged. That takes work and is never as exciting as talking about some lunatic president."

Visibly more comfortable taking questions on Snowden, a dramatization of the story of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, than talking about current events, Stone added that the situation in the U.S. today was scarily close to the kind of world George Orwell wrote about in his futuristic novel 1984.

"1984 is here. We are there. The only thing they have not yet done is to erase history … there are still people who remember things," he said. "One week it is terrorism [that dominates the headlines], the next week Putin and the next Korea."

It was, Stone said, "just like Hate Week in 1984, where the name of the country and the face of the leader changes halfway through a rally. They are doing it now and getting away with it."

.

[TeamsterGrrrl]

 

I'm passing the moderator a cold beer out the window, saying thank you and closing the tavern window, breathing a sigh of relief that new knucklehead passed easily through the window jamb. Nice throw 41. I ring the drink bell and lay down a $50. 

Actually, the ultimate moderator here is the Volvo Trucks Code of Conduct, being as our host is a Mack dealership as long as they meet the standards of Volvo Truck. Most applicable to this thread and forum is this language from page 3:

NON-DISCRIMINATION

All employees shall have equal opportunities based on competencies, experience and performance regardless of gender, race, religion, age, disability, sexual orientation, nationality, political opinion, union affiliation, social background or ethnic origin.

All employees shall be treated with respect. Discrimination, physical or verbal harassment, or any illegal threats are not tolerated.

 

So if you want to keep our host in business to serve our old Mack parts and service needs, lose the immigrant/gay/woman/race/etc. bashing and treat everyone with respect.

[Mack Technician]

So we can't hang 41 according to Volvo rules?? Doggonit, Things just got lame.

[j hancock]

 

 Teamstergrrrl said    "treat everyone with respect."

But you won't condemn what the other "Teamster" said about a BMT member?

[41chevy]

 

So we can't hang 41 according to Volvo rules?? Doggonit, Things just got lame.

Geeze! I go get Twinkies and coffee and things happen. Don't know what exactly I missed but I don't play by Volvo rules I play by AM-General rules so you can only suger rush me. 

 

[kscarbel2]

 

By your statement than, there were 3,403,000 a**holes in Vietnam,  3,713,000 in the Civil War , 106,000 in the Indian Wars and 184,000 in the War of independence.

I do agree with Charles Schummer and Elizabeth Warren statement that "all monuments to all wars should be removed"

 

 

 

Your numbers are off- less than a million served in the Confederate forces and many saw the stupidity of the Confederate position and deserted. Something less than half your number actually served in Vietnam, and many avoided combat as much as possible. The military's attempted genocide against the American Indian was a disgrace. And how come you've ignored the servicemembers who fought in the wars we had to fight such as World Wars One and Two?

C’mon guys, lighten up a bit. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You all pecked my curiosity so I took a look.

According to the U.S. Dept. of Veterans Affairs:  (https://www.va.gov/oaa/pocketcard/m-vietnam.asp)

During the Vietnam War........August 4, 1964 - January 27, 1973
Total who served in all Armed Forces: 8,744,000
Deployed to Southeast Asia: 3,403,000

Served in Vietnam: 2,700,000

---------------------------------

Other sources say:  (https://www.uswings.com/about-us-wings/vietnam-war-facts/)

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam......August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam (Excludes CIA).

---------------------------------

I agree, the attempted genocide against the American Indian by England, France, Spain and finally the United States was/is a disgrace.

 

[B MACK]

The Civil War was not ALL about slavery. But at any rate, it all is part of our history.  And it might mend if the MEDIA and Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton would let it be.   The southern states are proud. And there was lives lost on both sides, northern, southern. Black, white..   Just because some statues or the confederate flag bothers some group or individual doesn't mean they should be taken down or destroyed . It is OUR history.     Yes, Martin Luther King was shot and killed, and there are statues and streets in many cities named after him.   John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy were shot and killed also and there are NOT statues and streets named in they honor everywhere.     Robert Kennedy is hardly ever spoke of,  John Kennedy was assassinated while he was president of the United States, and that day in November is hardly even mentioned any more. But Martin Luther King is always talked about, and there is a national holiday in January honoring him.     Why is there not a holiday for Bobby Kennedy?  He fought for equal rights.   We need to get over it and move on...

[kscarbel2]

 

The Civil War was not ALL about slavery. But at any rate, it all is part of our history.  And it might mend if the MEDIA and Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton would let it be.   The southern states are proud. And there was lives lost on both sides, northern, southern. Black, white..   Just because some statues or the confederate flag bothers some group or individual doesn't mean they should be taken down or destroyed . It is OUR history.     Yes, Martin Luther King was shot and killed, and there are statues and streets in many cities named after him.   John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy were shot and killed also and there are NOT statues and streets named in they honor everywhere.     Robert Kennedy is hardly ever spoke of,  John Kennedy was assassinated while he was president of the United States, and that day in November is hardly even mentioned any more. But Martin Luther King is always talked about, and there is a national holiday in January honoring him.     Why is there not a holiday for Bobby Kennedy?  He fought for equal rights.   We need to get over it and move on...

Extremely well said.

It seems that all the groups today want to achieve their agenda's objectives in full, which of course is impossible. There can only be compromise, a middle ground of sorts. (As Mick Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want".)

And so many people feel entitled. Our generation never felt that way, rather, we were only entitled to the fruits of an honest day's hard work.

[kscarbel2]

Baltimore takes down Confederate statues in middle of night

The Guardian and Associated Press  /  August 16, 2017

Confederate-era monuments have been taken down in the middle of the night in Baltimore.

The memorials in the city include the Confederate Soldiers and Sailors Monument on Mount Royal Avenue, the Confederate Women’s Monument on West University Parkway, the Roger B Taney Monument on Mount Vernon Place, and the Robert E Lee and Thomas J “Stonewall” Jackson Monument in the Wyman Park Dell.

The Baltimore mayor, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, announced the creation of a special commission to review all of Baltimore’s Confederate statues and historical assets in June 2015.

Maryland, a slave-owning state [152+ years ago], remained in the union during the civil war, which was fought from 1861-65.

But Rawlings-Blake’s commission noted that though 65,000 Marylanders fought for the north, 22,000 fought for the Confederacy.

Other cities and states accelerated their plans to remove Confederate monuments following the violence in Virginia.

Only two statues were taken down immediately, in Gainesville, Florida, where the Daughters of the Confederacy removed a statue of a Confederate soldier known as “Ole Joe”, and in Durham, North Carolina, where protesters used a rope to pull down a Confederate monument dedicated in 1924.

Meanwhile in Birmingham, Alabama, the city used a wooden structure to cover up a Confederate monument in a downtown park on Tuesday night. Legislators passed a law earlier this year prohibiting the removal of structures including rebel memorials. So Birmingham mayor William Bell ordered the city’s 52-foot-tall Confederate obelisk covered with wooden panels.

Leaders of a New York Episcopal diocese said they would remove two plaques honouring Lee from a church property in Brooklyn.

Donald Trump defended Confederate statues in his wide-ranging remarks at Trump Tower in New York on Tuesday evening.

“This week it’s Robert E Lee. I notice that Stonewall Jackson’s coming down,” Trump said. “I wonder, is it George Washington next week, and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?”

Asked specifically whether Charlottesville’s Lee statue should come down, he said: “I would say that’s up to a local town, community or the federal government, depending on where it is located.”

.

 

[BillyT]

If you try sometime you get what you need! "The truth often lies in the center of the two opinions!"

[BillyT]

Just a bunch of concrete statues! How much good could be done for humanity of all persuasions with the money spent on relocating them?!

[41chevy]

Emil Rahm was on CNN this morning talking about the removal of the George Washington statue as well as that of President Andrew Jackson at the request by Bishop Dukes. BLM  has also joined in and vowed daily protests until the statues are removed and the parks renamed. 

We as Chicagoans must now take the microscope and place it on the statues, monuments and parks that we give honor to," Bishop Dukes wrote in a letter to Emanuel. "We cannot allow slavery and racism to be awarded in our communities by honoring individuals that indeed partook in the very institution that has kidnapped, murdered, raped, and terrorized our forefather and mothers."

"Therefore, I call on the immediate removal of President George Washington and President Andrew Jackson names from the parks located on the southeast side of Chicago," Dukes added. "They should not have the distinct honor of being held as heroes when they actively participated in the slave trade. I fully expect that the Chicago Park District and Mayor Rahm Emanuel share in my sentiments and views; that Chicago will not be a place that embraces racism, slavery and its treacherous tentacles. But rather, Chicago will be a beacon of hope for a better tomorrow for all its’ residents."

According to CBS Chicago, Dukes stated:

“When I see that, I see a person who fought for the liberties, and I see people that fought for the justice and freedom of white America, because at that moment, we were still chattel slavery, and was three-fifths of humans,” he said. “Some people out here ask me, say ‘Well, you know, he taught his slaves to read.’ That’s almost sad; the equivalent of someone who kidnaps you, that you gave them something to eat.”

Thomas Jefferson who was singled out as offensive by Al Sharpton and NYC Mayor Blasio. NY Democratics , ACLU, members of the Council on American Islamic Relations and other National groups have joined the anti  slavery memorial removals. The Mayor of NYC quoted Leslie Odom of the show Hamilton as being right on the majority of the publics view of the memorials and statues to slave owner and confederates, no matter who they are. 

Actor Leslie Odom Jr. says public statues should be erected to " “inspire us,” to “teach us,” and to “give us hope,” but if they no longer do so, communities can decide that they don’t want them anymore — even when it comes to statues of America’s Founding Fathers. If we decide as a community that this bronze commemoration is no longer doing that, if it’s no longer inspiring us, if it’s no longer making us feel great about ourselves, they come down for a while, or forever,” he said. 

"You can reexamine things in the future, but if a statue has to come down for a minute, we’re allowed to do that,” Odom added.

“We’re even allowed to do that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington,” he added. “We’re allowed to. They’re not off the table for discussion."