2000 CL E7-427 upgrades

[2000CL713]

How long have you had them in your RD? Any issues with the new injectors?

My CL also has a bigger hood and rad setup then your RD so that should help. 

[2000CL713]

so yesterday i yet again went to Mack and asked them about the 460xt program and yet again got other excuses why they wont do it. everything from the transmission will blowup bc its not made to handle that much power. we dont want to be responsible if it doesn't run right/computer issues/not starting or parts failure.

note that last time i asked there reasons where it couldn't be done. this time it was diff reasons. talked with the same person as well.  

[Mack Technician]

If I where the guy jerking you around it would sound something like this. 

"if you want your block to last another decade keep what you have. Here's what you have to look forward to pushing a 12 liter to 14 liter HP range......

-cracked heads

-higher pyro

-less MPG

-coolant in your oil because of wormholes under your sleeve shoulder

- shimming sleeves to max protrusion to help head bounce

- sustain overload pits on your top mated gears of diffs

Then, once warned, I would just do it cause ultimately the customer is always right and I want you to come back to me for the listed repairs. 

 

[2000CL713]

That maybe true to a point. The 460xt program was offered from mack. It is a factory opt if you got a 460xt truck so why would it not last with a tune that mack themselfs made and offered and sold?! I would understand your point when it came to aftermarket stuff like bigger injectors or aftermarket computer and turbos and so forth. But keeping everything within what the factory offered should be safe no?? Going by that math then each higher in the HP rating the motors that mack offered make the motor less reliable? So the 460 is less reliable then the 427 straight from the factory? 

I agree with you but as long as I have every part a 460xt truck came with and the same tune file then it should be a regual 460xt truck without those problems? 

Maybe I'm looking as this all wrong. I have never modified any of my work trucks so this is new to me. 

[Mack Technician]

I'm just playing Devils advocate....

But.....That stuff does happen if you beat a 460XT. 

 

 

My truck is sinking in the mud....Do I

A. let the dozer push me out

B. Hammer it to the floor.

 

If you answered "A"    do the upgrade

If you answered "B"    go work for someone who owns a 460XT

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

[2000CL713]

I love seeing people do B lol I just sit in my truck and laugh when they break shit lol

I do A to the fullest but it's very very rare that ever happens bc I don't even listen to where the guy wants me. He ain't the owner or driver. I put the load where I want it and that I know won't put my truck in a situation. 

I seen guys listen to the guy in the rear and they back up. Fucking truck leaning like a cocked eyes sumbitch. one day that shit bites them in the ass and the truck is flipping and I see often. They think there a badass until it happens and then it's everyone else's fault. No dumbass. It's yours. Your the driver. 

[Mack Technician]

 

17 hours ago, 2000CL713 said:

 one day that shit bites them in the ass and the truck is flipping and I see often.

...........but think of all the awesome youtube videos they make .

 

[david wild]

Seems  funny that some people never learn about turning up engines, which we have been doing longer than some of our freinds have been alive, 237 Mack would run forever, spit oil, leak water, smoke and whatever but they would keep running, the more power they have attempted to pull out of that engine the lower the life expectancy has been, 350 and 400 run forever now, but getting 500+ is going to really shorten your engines life span, also no one  has brought up the 460XT gremlin, run great one day and run like crap the next day, we had 2 one suffered from day to day and the other was not so bad, Mack said it was in the software ????  Next problem and this what bothers me, our freind lives in FL, FL is flat, how much power do you need to run a dump truck in FL ????? we ran dumps in Mass. with 237s and had plenty power unless you need to run 80 miles per hour, at which point you don't want to hear my comments on stupidity.        

[Mack Technician]

I was taught to think of engines like batteries..... power low, burns slow.

I watch Mackpro's threads about MP series cup and injector, waiting for my day to come, but yet our Volvo D13 has been running 24/7 for 2 years straight and no such issues. Same engine platform as MP8. Only difference is ours is derated (334 horsepower/1,000 Ftlbs of torque) instead of pumping 505HP and 1,860 Ftlbs torque.

  

Edited October 3, 2017 by Mack Technician

[2000CL713]

Would be nice to hear mackpro opinion on this software isusses since he works at mack and has installed this into people's trucks and if they had problems it running good and bad. 

[Mackpro]

22 hours ago, 2000CL713 said:

Would be nice to hear mackpro opinion on this software isusses since he works at mack and has installed this into people's trucks and if they had problems it running good and bad. 

Our local 1999 CL with the 460XT with Mack 18 speed trans and Mack 92 series rear axles. Customer   had a complete engine rebuild  done 2 years ago . I believe it was at the million mile mark. Still runs every day as he lives only a mile from my house. Here are the only problems I have seen with the 460XT. Be ready to change rear motor mount bushings/bolts  about every 9 months if you use truck every day. Leave the torque limit switch on the trans hooked up. Our customer has his unhooked, and about every 12-15  months he breaks a through shaft or a axle shaft.  No engine problems at all. The CL has the radiator to handle the heat. On 2000CL713 truck,  I sent the 460 and 460XT  HP upgrade  request to Mack yesterday and only the the regular  460 program is available anymore. No more XT upgrades. 

[catwrench55]

To add to slightly highjack😊

I've got a 01 CX with a 427 etech

Feels pretty sluggish so I put a bigger turbo I had off my Detroit.  It's a Garrett tmf 55.  1/32 ex.  72 compessor enducer.   Thought it would give her a little more breath at top end.   Don't think I've got quite enough fuel for it though. 

If I have an aftermarket guy who can get a 460xt program for about the same money "says he can" as injectors what's the better first option?  

 

[MACKTRUCKS4]

On 10/1/2017 at 11:38 AM, 2000CL713 said:

How long have you had them in your RD? Any issues with the new injectors?

My CL also has a bigger hood and rad setup then your RD so that should help. 

I've had these injectors in for about 5 or 6 years now with no issues. I had an issue with an engine stumble., Pulled the injectors thinking it was the problem but it wasn't. Turned out Mack had problems with that year computer and had it re-programed and that took care of the problem. Changed the  radiator and replaced it with a better flowing aluminum core.

[2000CL713]

11 hours ago, catwrench55 said:

To add to slightly highjack😊

I've got a 01 CX with a 427 etech

Feels pretty sluggish so I put a bigger turbo I had off my Detroit.  It's a Garrett tmf 55.  1/32 ex.  72 compessor enducer.   Thought it would give her a little more breath at top end.   Don't think I've got quite enough fuel for it though. 

If I have an aftermarket guy who can get a 460xt program for about the same money "says he can" as injectors what's the better first option?  

 

i posted a question like this in this thread as well and everyone seems to like one way or the other. no real definite answer as to which way is best to go first. i see it as that Mack designed and made XT program to work reliable. now if your stupid and break shit thats on you. you can do that with a stock 427 as well BUT as you can see there is also guys running larger injectors without problem. you have to make the call yourself. i wish stuff like this was more widely done/talked about/tested like in the CAT world. Mack seems to be behind when it comes to that area tho. everyone has to do it for themselves. theres really no r&d to go off which in the end is the main issue. 

[2000CL713]

4 hours ago, MACKTRUCKS4 said:

I've had these injectors in for about 5 or 6 years now with no issues. I had an issue with an engine stumble., Pulled the injectors thinking it was the problem but it wasn't. Turned out Mack had problems with that year computer and had it re-programed and that took care of the problem. Changed the  radiator and replaced it with a better flowing aluminum core.

thats good to hear. maybe when the day comes that i overhaul the whole motor id do the injector route. just something in my head tells me not to push it more then the XT tune. 

[Lmackattack]

Im not up on all these electronic Mack engines but I had heard years ago that the XT flash ( i think that was the one everyone wanted) was no longer being give out to dealers/customers because of the EPA or potential issues with the EPA. The few guys that I know that had gotten there hands on it loved what it did to wake up the engine.  It was soon known that it was no longer availible and owners would refuse to let dealers touch the ECM if the truck was in for service.  Im sure these days the first thing a dealer tech does is plug into it and possible update the ECM to the latest revision if it meets a possibility of fixing a issue ?

[2000CL713]

thats what mackpro has told me as well. must be a good tune for the EPA not to like it. they hate anything good. i think what im going to do is get myself a 2nd ECM and load the XT tune on it so i have both. 460 ECM and 460XT ECM. i need to talk to 2 other people then going to pick a route to take.  

Edited October 5, 2017 by 2000CL713

[Mackpro]

21 hours ago, Lmackattack said:

Im not up on all these electronic Mack engines but I had heard years ago that the XT flash ( i think that was the one everyone wanted) was no longer being give out to dealers/customers because of the EPA or potential issues with the EPA. The few guys that I know that had gotten there hands on it loved what it did to wake up the engine.  It was soon known that it was no longer availible and owners would refuse to let dealers touch the ECM if the truck was in for service.  Im sure these days the first thing a dealer tech does is plug into it and possible update the ECM to the latest revision if it meets a possibility of fixing a issue ?

The XT programs are still in the Mack Mainframe for the VINs they were assigned to. So if you own a truck with the XT file in it , that came from the factory or was upgraded later and Mack knows it's supposed to be in your engine ECM , your still ok. If your ECM shorts out , you can get a new ECM programed to your original. Mack is just not gonna add the XT to anymore  VINs.  However , if you kept bringing in your 460XT truck with a bad ECM, the dealer can keep programming new ECMs with the XT file .  Or you could have a bunch programmed ........ for spares .........if you know what I mean, 

[Mack Technician]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 9:06 PM, Mackpro said:

The XT programs are still in the Mack Mainframe for the VINs they were assigned to. So if you own a truck with the XT file in it , that came from the factory or was upgraded later and Mack knows it's supposed to be in your engine ECM , your still ok. If your ECM shorts out , you can get a new ECM programed to your original. Mack is just not gonna add the XT to anymore  VINs.  However , if you kept bringing in your 460XT truck with a bad ECM, the dealer can keep programming new ECMs with the XT file .  Or you could have a bunch programmed ........ for spares .........if you know what I mean, 

You never disappoint!!!

So if you got a vin number from a truck with 460XT, and your dealer used that vin number when entering your truck into his Dealership's customer base (service writing, etc) + access Mack database, and you had a work order written for "EECM failure to communicate, Replace & program EECM to original"...............you could have the program!

Doesn't seem immoral if the vin-donor truck was salvage in some junk yard.  `

Could be the Pepsi talking........but I recollect the valve cover ID tag of the engines reading "E7-460XT"?

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mack Technician
Out of data, erasing pics

[Lmackattack]

I would still wonder if Mack truly gives the original XT file out?? . I would suspect Mack at mercy of the EPA would had revised further sales of the old 460XT flash to meet the EPA wishes. in doing so that would likely make the file less aggressive. I wonder if there is a revision history attached to the XT file. In doing so it may be possible to see what was changed in each revision. I know thats how we noted changes on the parts that I sold in the racing industry.  A revision history could point to some clues to what may have changed from say a file released in 2002 vs a file that was released in 2017. I would bet that 2 different ECMs with 15 years of production separation would have had many programing revisions.

[2000CL713]

that would be cool to know. not sure how tho. only person that maybe able to find out or knows of this happening would be mackpro. 

[Mackpro]

I can pull the exact data and software numbers off of the vin of a XT engine ECM and compare the numbers to a regular 460. However I'm vacation for 2 weeks and won't be able to access the system. But I might turn around  and Head back home. Made it 150 miles from home and hit a deer. Took out the windshield , fender and door of the Tahoe. Lucky a guy changed the windshield for me in the middle of the night and we continued on. 20 min later get a speeding ticket , 72 in a 55 , he did knock it down to 60 in a 55. 

[theakerstwo]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 9:06 PM, Mackpro said:

The XT programs are still in the Mack Mainframe for the VINs they were assigned to. So if you own a truck with the XT file in it , that came from the factory or was upgraded later and Mack knows it's supposed to be in your engine ECM , your still ok. If your ECM shorts out , you can get a new ECM programed to your original. Mack is just not gonna add the XT to anymore  VINs.  However , if you kept bringing in your 460XT truck with a bad ECM, the dealer can keep programming new ECMs with the XT file .  Or you could have a bunch programmed ........ for spares .........if you know what I mean, 

I dont know about mack but with the freightliner dearer that i worked at epa came in often and would look at all of the down loads from DD to see if each download matched the proper engine.

[fjh]

5 hours ago, Mackpro said:

I can pull the exact data and software numbers off of the vin of a XT engine ECM and compare the numbers to a regular 460. However I'm vacation for 2 weeks and won't be able to access the system. But I might turn around  and Head back home. Made it 150 miles from home and hit a deer. Took out the windshield , fender and door of the Tahoe. Lucky a guy changed the windshield for me in the middle of the night and we continued on. 20 min later get a speeding ticket , 72 in a 55 , he did knock it down to 60 in a 55. 

That sucks! Expensive VA K

[2000CL713]

5 hours ago, Mackpro said:

I can pull the exact data and software numbers off of the vin of a XT engine ECM and compare the numbers to a regular 460. However I'm vacation for 2 weeks and won't be able to access the system. But I might turn around  and Head back home. Made it 150 miles from home and hit a deer. Took out the windshield , fender and door of the Tahoe. Lucky a guy changed the windshield for me in the middle of the night and we continued on. 20 min later get a speeding ticket , 72 in a 55 , he did knock it down to 60 in a 55. 

Sorry to hear that Mackpro. Could always be worse. Sometimes you just need to make the best of a bad situation.