Fuel additives discussion

[KDog Trucking]

Wondering what fuel additives people are using (if any)? Any non-believers in additives can comment as well. 

If so what additive do you use?
Was it to address a specific problem? (if so what)

Do you track mileage? Regens?
Has it reduced regens?/Increased mpg

Would you recommend it?

What kind of improvement(s) have you seen?
Why did you decide to use it?

Does it contain - cetane improver? Lubricity improver, etc. (what's in it)
 

[Lmackattack]

Guy I work for puts in fuel additives in all his machines almost every other fill up. only thing I notice is im changing fuel filters all the time as its dislodging gunk and clogging filters. I think most of it is rust in the tanks as many of them just sit over winter. So i cant say that the additives are helping or not but I sure seam to change them pretty often.

[farmer52]

I am a firm believer in fuel additives.  In my previous life I spent many a day running field tests to develop and evaluate Diesel fuel additives.  I always use Stanadyne Performance Formula in my Diesel powered vehicles/equipment.  Stanadyne recently sold the additive business to Alliant Power.  The same product is now called Ultraguard.  I buy mine from eBay but you may have a local fuel distributor that handles this product.  An alternative is Power Service brand that is available at Wally World and most truck stops.  Some fuel distributors offer a "premium" Diesel fuel with additives.  Get the details from them on what additive package they use and specs.

ULTRAGUARD Benefits:

Restores Engine Power, Torque, & Improves Fuel Economy Increases Cetane for Improved Engine Combustion Cleans Deposits & Eliminates Stiction in Common Rail Injectors Removes Water by Demulsification, Stabilizes, & Protects Against Rust & Corrosion Lubricates Fuel System Reducing Friction & Wear Provides Anti-Gel Protection & Improves Diesel Pour Point Reduces Particulates in Exhaust Aftertreatment Systems (DPF & SCR) Minimizes Filter Clogging from Asphaltenes

[Mack Technician]

We have a mobile V8 CAT gen, behind a Pete, that can power the factory and one more smaller unit at our Dam. I stabilize that fuel since it turns over so slow. Speaking in favor of additives...... the engine runs great on 10 year old fuel that may have turned back into dinosaur meat without stabilizers.  

Big Gen has its own building. What does your group put as a shelf life on fuel? Tank full all the time, stabilized with Sea Foam stabilizer, steel 400 gallon, inside storage, no elements beyond ambient swings in unheated building?  

[KDog Trucking]

The fuel you are getting has a storage stabilizer that is supposed to extend out the life of fuel by 6-9 months. 
 

A University of Idaho study showed a 26% degradation of #2 diesel after just 28 days. Surprising how fast it breaks down.

[KDog Trucking]

10 hours ago, Lmackattack said:

Guy I work for puts in fuel additives in all his machines almost every other fill up. only thing I notice is im changing fuel filters all the time as its dislodging gunk and clogging filters. I think most of it is rust in the tanks as many of them just sit over winter. So i cant say that the additives are helping or not but I sure seam to change them pretty often.

That seems like it would be the detergents in the additive cleaning things up.

[KDog Trucking]

3 hours ago, farmer52 said:

I am a firm believer in fuel additives.  In my previous life I spent many a day running field tests to develop and evaluate Diesel fuel additives.  I always use Stanadyne Performance Formula in my Diesel powered vehicles/equipment.  Stanadyne recently sold the additive business to Alliant Power.  The same product is now called Ultraguard.  I buy mine from eBay but you may have a local fuel distributor that handles this product.  An alternative is Power Service brand that is available at Wally World and most truck stops.  Some fuel distributors offer a "premium" Diesel fuel with additives.  Get the details from them on what additive package they use and specs.

ULTRAGUARD Benefits:

Restores Engine Power, Torque, & Improves Fuel Economy Increases Cetane for Improved Engine Combustion Cleans Deposits & Eliminates Stiction in Common Rail Injectors Removes Water by Demulsification, Stabilizes, & Protects Against Rust & Corrosion Lubricates Fuel System Reducing Friction & Wear Provides Anti-Gel Protection & Improves Diesel Pour Point Reduces Particulates in Exhaust Aftertreatment Systems (DPF & SCR) Minimizes Filter Clogging from Asphaltenes

Looks like a pretty good additive - detergents for clean up and improved economy - also for injectors. Cetane for cold start up/ignition.
Also in my book, demulsification is the way to go. I've yet to see any OEM endorse the opposite (emulsification). Demulsifying forces water to the bottom of the tank where the water seperator removes it or the water can be removed from the tank. 
Also looks like a storage stabilizer, a cold flow improver (*not necessary except in winter)
The last two claims are also functions of the detergents.
How much do you typically pay for this? (If you don't mind including the treat rate).

Thanks!

[Keith Pommerening]

I think my injectors are getting bad, if I add the injector cleaner/lubricator it makes engine run like normal.  It is an Isuzu FTR with the 7.8 litre engine.  Have 320,000+ delivery miles on it.  Have never had to add oil between oil changes at 6500 miles.  The problem I am having:  If I accelerate too fast, or press the pedal too hard before engine is in upper rev-range, engine will go "soft" for a second, loose some power and have an additional mild vibration.  Shut it off and let sit a minute and it will go back to normal.  Some times it like to roll black smoke.  Shows no code on computer.  I started using Lucas fuel treatment and the truck runs properly just about all the time.  If the ratio gets weak the problem re-emergess.  Increase the amount of conditioner and engine runs properly again. 

Suppose to get a new truck after the first of the year, but I think my luck will runout first.  Injectors are $650.00 each and 12 hours labor.  Truck is only worth about $3000.00 the boss tells me.  I am at a satalite wharehouse but at the main wharehouse they have started buying better quality fuel and adding additive and they believe it is worth the expense.  Mostly run ND, MN and MT, yea it gets real cold at times.

[Ezrider]

depends what your adding additives for and why.

cleaners typically don't do a whole lot, especially when talking gasoline. 

 

fuel stabilizers for gasoline is almost a necessity on anything that sits with today's gas. or run non ethonol if you can find it, there are a few stations here that carry non ethanol premium gas.  diesel iv never had a problem other than water absorption witch is just a filter change. 

 

most older diesels that were made prior to the ulsd mandates came about generally do benefit from a lubricity additive. 75-100:1 2 stroke oil works good as does power service ect. 

 

additives for anti gell.... iv gelled up using anti gell additives of almost every brand. there is no additive like #1 for -40 cold snaps. above 0 no additive required unless maybe if you bought fuel in way south but you probably need a top up by then anyway. what will normally get you is the sudden cold snaps, of +30 to -40 big trucks have less trouble than pickups cause they recirculate a lot of fuel back to the tanks and keep the tanks pretty warm. semi if you leave it running you wont gel. if your going home and its going to be -40 and its going to be shut off for a couple days top it with #1 pickups/light duty trucks are where i have had most of my issues.

[Mack Technician]

Our worst cold issue was with fuel slobber gluing the exhaust valves solid, especially PLN. Additives didn't matter. Customer would crank it up on a cold day, drive across town and shut down. Fine on a fall day. At sub zeros the unburned fuel slobber would cool into epoxy on the exhaust valve stems and bend the pushtubes at next start-up. At first Mack would warrranty it and then said "no, you will advise (require) your customers to reach suitable operating temps at every start-up". Really only a couple repeat offenders that would do that, most guys are rolling for the day.

If we brought the truck into the shop for a clutch adjustment, during the snap, and it had to sit outside afterwards, mandatory, we had to drive it eight miles on a burn off.

[Ezrider]

i have never heard of that issue. of course diesels i always make sure they are at or near operating temperature before i start driving. and tend to leave them running for short stops in extreme cold temps. 

[1958 F.W.D.]

On 10/20/2017 at 9:49 PM, Ezrider said:

fuel stabilizers for gasoline is almost a necessity on anything that sits with today's gas. or run non ethonol if you can find it, there are a few stations here that carry non ethanol premium gas.  

Corn gas has become quite an issue with those of us having gasoline engines in our antiques that do not run very often. In the summertime when I am constantly taking the FWD to shows, less of an issue. Now that the end of the show season is on the horizon, I have begun topping off with non-eth (which I am fortunate to have a source of about 10 miles away.) You can put all the additives you want into corn gas (StaBil, StarTron or what have you) but you are only buying time- the inevitible "Lacquering" of the corn gas can and WILL happen- and if you have plastic, rubber or neoprene parts in your fuel system you will pay the price dearly. Treating corn gas is not a sure save, in my opinion the only way to avoid problems with corn gas is to burn it off relatively soon. 

Nationwide list of sources of non-eth gasoline
www.pure-gas.org

As for the older oil burner that we own- one quart of cheap ATF every fill up. 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by 1958 F.W.D.

[Ezrider]

i try to avoid putting ethonol gas in anything that might sit i have a few places i can get premium that does not contain any. stabilizer will buy you enough time to get threw 4-5 months of non use but that's about the limit even treated. the days of pulling something out that has been sitting for 5 years and starting it on the gas that was still in the tank are long gone. 

iv seen ethanol turn every brass part in a carb green after sitting 6 months not treated. 

[KDog Trucking]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:24 PM, Keith Pommerening said:

I think my injectors are getting bad, if I add the injector cleaner/lubricator it makes engine run like normal.  It is an Isuzu FTR with the 7.8 litre engine.  Have 320,000+ delivery miles on it.  Have never had to add oil between oil changes at 6500 miles.  The problem I am having:  If I accelerate too fast, or press the pedal too hard before engine is in upper rev-range, engine will go "soft" for a second, loose some power and have an additional mild vibration.  Shut it off and let sit a minute and it will go back to normal.  Some times it like to roll black smoke.  Shows no code on computer.  I started using Lucas fuel treatment and the truck runs properly just about all the time.  If the ratio gets weak the problem re-emergess.  Increase the amount of conditioner and engine runs properly again. 

Suppose to get a new truck after the first of the year, but I think my luck will runout first.  Injectors are $650.00 each and 12 hours labor.  Truck is only worth about $3000.00 the boss tells me.  I am at a satalite wharehouse but at the main wharehouse they have started buying better quality fuel and adding additive and they believe it is worth the expense.  Mostly run ND, MN and MT, yea it gets real cold at times.

You can run Cenex Roadmaster XL (additized fuel) when in ND & MT. Has a strong injection stabilizer package and detergents. Would be curious to hear if that helps.

[KDog Trucking]

5 hours ago, Ezrider said:

i try to avoid putting ethonol gas in anything that might sit i have a few places i can get premium that does not contain any. stabilizer will buy you enough time to get threw 4-5 months of non use but that's about the limit even treated. the days of pulling something out that has been sitting for 5 years and starting it on the gas that was still in the tank are long gone. 

iv seen ethanol turn every brass part in a carb green after sitting 6 months not treated. 

New engines seem to be built to handle it. It's hard on any of the older stuff. You talk to any small engine techs and they don't recommend using oxy/ethanol gas.

[KDog Trucking]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:49 PM, Ezrider said:

depends what your adding additives for and why.

cleaners typically don't do a whole lot, especially when talking gasoline. 

 

fuel stabilizers for gasoline is almost a necessity on anything that sits with today's gas. or run non ethonol if you can find it, there are a few stations here that carry non ethanol premium gas.  diesel iv never had a problem other than water absorption witch is just a filter change. 

 

most older diesels that were made prior to the ulsd mandates came about generally do benefit from a lubricity additive. 75-100:1 2 stroke oil works good as does power service ect. 

 

additives for anti gell.... iv gelled up using anti gell additives of almost every brand. there is no additive like #1 for -40 cold snaps. above 0 no additive required unless maybe if you bought fuel in way south but you probably need a top up by then anyway. what will normally get you is the sudden cold snaps, of +30 to -40 big trucks have less trouble than pickups cause they recirculate a lot of fuel back to the tanks and keep the tanks pretty warm. semi if you leave it running you wont gel. if your going home and its going to be -40 and its going to be shut off for a couple days top it with #1 pickups/light duty trucks are where i have had most of my issues.

Speaking of diesel, typical #2 does not meet the EMA spec of 460 for lubricity. So if that's something you care about that's something worth looking at. Typical #2 untreated is 500-600 for an EMA wear scar test.

As for winter additives, any cold flow improver (anti-gel) will buy you another 15 degrees of protection. A typical gel point for fuel in the Midwest is 6 degrees, untreated. So an anti-gel additive will get you to -9 below. Anything that claims more than that is using a larger micron filter. For example, if it says it will achieve -30 below operability on the bottle, it's likely tested using a 45 micron filter (meaningless).

All branded gas stations now have detergents added to the gas (top tier) so it's not really necessary to add anything else, agreed.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[1958 F.W.D.]

23 minutes ago, kamp_dogg said:

New engines seem to be built to handle it. It's hard on any of the older stuff. You talk to any small engine techs and they don't recommend using oxy/ethanol gas.

New engines do ok on it because it gets burned off in a timely fashion. Go ahead and park your car for a few months though and come back and see what happens.
And then there's E15. Google how many manufacturer's will NOT honor warranties if you put E15 into your car.

[Mack Technician]

16 minutes ago, 1958 F.W.D. said:

New engines do ok on it because it gets burned off in a timely fashion. Go ahead and park your car for a few months though and come back and see what happens.
And then there's E15. Google how many manufacturer's will NOT honor warranties if you put E15 into your car.

Snopes..........

 

BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Toyota and VW have said their warranties will not cover fuel-related claims caused by E15. Ford, Honda, Kia, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo have said E15 use will void warranties, says Darbelnet, citing potential corrosive damage to fuel lines, gaskets and other engine components.

The AAA says the sale and use of E15 should be stopped until there is more extensive testing, better pump labels to safeguard consumers and more consumer education about potential hazards.

 

Good reason to avoid single line gas station pumps.............

 

Some critics have maintained that because most gas stations don’t want to go to the expense of putting in new tanks just for E15 and will instead likely install blender pumps (which mix the ethanol and gasoline together in the right proportion for the selected fuel type), the possibility exists that an E10 customer who uses a pump directly after an E15 customer might receive as much as a third of a gallon of E15 from residual fuel remaining in the fueling hose, to adverse effect. It is unlikely that such a relatively small amount of residual E15 mixed into a gas tank of E10 could cause problems for standard automobiles, but it may potentially be an issue for gasoline-powered

vehicles and equipment with smaller fuel tanks, such as motorcycles, ATVs, chain saws, and lawn mowers. The EPA initially considered heading off this potential issue by imposing a requirement that E10 customers purchase a minimum of four gallons of gas at stations using blender pumps that dispense E10 and E15 through the same hose, but that proposal has since been dropped in favor of requiring labeling on blender pumps stating that such pumps are solely for passenger cars and trucks.

At the end of 2013, the EPA announced it was reducing the amount of ethanol that must be blended into gasoline in 2014 (in part because the overall demand for gasoline in the U.S. has dropped), requiring transportation fuel companies to blend 15.21 billion gallons of ethanol into the nation’s fuel supply in 2014, down from 16.55 billion gallons in 2013. Critics of the EPA’s blending requirements pointed out that the announcement came just four days after the Associated Press published a lengthy investigative article documenting substantial environmental harms caused by ethanol which concluded that “The ethanol era has proven far more damaging to the environment than politicians promised and much worse than government admits today”:

Edited October 23, 2017 by Mack Technician

[Keith Pommerening]

8 hours ago, kamp_dogg said:

You can run Cenex Roadmaster XL (additized fuel) when in ND & MT. Has a strong injection stabilizer package and detergents. Would be curious to hear if that helps.

Company gives me a credit card and it's not Cenex.  Suppose I could ask them and see if I can change, station is only two blocks away.  Would be handier.  Neighbors were loggers and they were using Cenex lubricants.  Had trouble with engines needing overhauls sooner then normal.  They switched oil brands and got many more hours before overhauls.  This goes back 10-15 years so sure things have changed by now.  

I do run a fairly high percentage of #1 in the winter.  Can buy alot of #1 for the cost of one roadside freeze-up. Truck sits outside all the time, only runs during week days, has no tank heaters.  See most additives are a thicker "oil" like substance.  I wonder if that would make any difference when it gets cold, as far as pour point is affected.  Would suspect at 3-4 oz per 10 gallons probably not.  Additive costs $30.00 for a gallon at truck stop!  Last me 2-3 weeks.

[Maxidyne]

Cenex Roadmaster has always been my first choice for diesel, often when chain stations fuel was waxing Cenex had no problems. As for Cenex oils, they now offer a pretty comprehensive engine warranty if you use their lubricants and they don't seem to be going broke paying warranty claims.

[BillyT]

I can't speak for the new diesels, but when I ran the GMC 7000 "hotshot rig" with the 8.2 Detroit I definitely got a 1 mpg improvement using Howes additive in the small bottle! When the truck was new I used power service when below zero to prevent gelling! But I kept hearing that the purple coloring would clog the injectors! All the big truck stops claim to put additive in their fuel in winter, but You never know for sure! or how much! When you add your own you're sure! I recall one TS advertising that they would pay your tow if you gelled while using their fuel! I wasn't holding my breath!😁 I think it was 1990 when it hit 25 below in Chicago! I passed dozens of trucks gelled up on my way to Florida but I had a jug of power service in my tanks so I was ok! I've been told the coal haulers in wv and Kentucky put a gallon of unleaded regular in their fuel tanks when it's cold, I think ill pass on that! I put 8 ounces of Lucas in my p.u and my wife's car every fill up, so far so good!

[KDog Trucking]

I'm with you BillyT, I think I would pass on the gasoline in the diesel to thin it. It used to be you could get away with that on older stuff like 150-1 treat rate. Not so with today's engines. That would strip all the lubricity from it and probably raise the combustion temp or otherwise alter the fuel.

On the ethanol discussion - I think that ethanol is okay to sit so long as the temp stays stable.

My ethanol story - I put my snow blower in the garage and it worked great on E10 oxy gas for 10 years. I move and put it in my shed and the first year it doesn't start. SO I figure it's done for and go get a new snowblower. Put E10 in it. Wouldn't start the other day when I tested it - it's brand new. I took it back to the implement. The mechanic says that it needs a carb kit (for a brand new snowblower!) He asks where I'm storing it. In the shed is the answer, and yes it gets hot and cold in there more so than my garage. No problems in the garage where it stayed cool, but in the shed it gets very hot in the summer and according to the mechanic that causes condensation in the gas he says and their in lies the problem - it's not the ethanol its the water and the ethanol together.

 

[cf685f]

Here's what I run. Everyone I recommend it to finds the same results. I have not been able to produce 4% increase in mileage consistently, but I believe the quality of the fuel is to blame.

http://stanadyneadditives.com/

 

[Freightrain]

I put Power Service in my truck every few fill ups.  I noticed a gain in power back when it was still a NA 673.   It would pull the hill on 224 in one higher gear after putting it in.  I still put it in the 237 but just as security with lubricity on an old injection pump.  My tanks have always been clean and new fuel lines so I don't have filter issues.

My small gas powered items get Marvel Mystery Oil on every few fill ups and before sitting for the winter.  I don't have issues with any of them even after sitting 6-7 months.  I pulled the carb on my '78 Onan genset and it was crystal clean on the inside.  Don't know how dirty it was originally(from previous owner), but after a summer of MMO I pulled it apart to see and was amazed how clean it was inside.  It looked like it was rubbed with polishing compound.

[1958 F.W.D.]

Do NOT under any circumstances ass gasoline to diesel fuel for use in a diesel engine. You are adding a flammable liquid with a flash point of -50f to a fuel designed to flash at 130f. Great way to pre-combust and blow pistons apart.