Fuel additives discussion

[hatcity]

Sorry but I am confused about this "cold", "gelling" stuff

actually, I run Power Service in my tanks every other fill up. mainly, the lubricity factor

[Mack Technician]

1 hour ago, hatcity said:

Sorry but I am confused about this "cold", "gelling" stuff

actually, I run Power Service in my tanks every other fill up. mainly, the lubricity factor

Your invited up here in January, fuel crystallization is not nearly as fun to describe as to experience........along with a split, frozen, windshield wash jug....tranny lube so thick it snubs the engine when you let the clutch out (in neutral)........Shrinking, leaking, seals in range shifter......Synchro clash cause oil won't squeeze out of plates....Salt chewing holes into everything you drive..... rotten, seized, sticking, throttle pedal assemblies because you get out onto over-salted walk ways and then hop back in with salty feet which also rots out your floor boards because it stays hot and wet and activated on floor.... laying out with salamander heaters shoved into every compartment and getting so nasty cold that your shoe bottoms clap like tap dancing shoes when you walk into the shop only to find they split on the bottom cause the rubber got too cold and now you have wasted $160.....

I'm not bitter, but it gets ridiculous and only the ducks knew enough to get out in time.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Mack Technician

[1958 F.W.D.]

31 minutes ago, Mack Technician said:

Your invited up here in January, fuel crystallization is not nearly as fun to describe as to experience........along with a split, frozen, windshield wash jug....tranny lube so thick it snubs the engine when you let the clutch out (in neutral)........Shrinking, leaking, seals in range shifter......Synchro clash cause oil won't squeeze out of plates....Salt chewing holes into everything you drive..... rotten, seized, sticking, throttle pedal assemblies because you get out onto over-salted walk ways and then hop back in with salty feet which also rots out your floor boards because it stays hot and wet and activated on floor.... laying out with salamander heaters shoved into every compartment and getting so nasty cold that your shoe bottoms clap like tap dancing shoes when you walk into the shop only to find they split on the bottom cause the rubber got too cold and now you have wasted $160.....

I'm not bitter, but it gets ridiculous and only the ducks knew enough to get out in time.

Yeah. Eff that. 
The older I get the better and better North Carolina is looking. 

[Keith Pommerening]

1 hour ago, Mack Technician said:

Your invited up here in January, fuel crystallization is not nearly as fun to describe as to experience........along with a split, frozen, windshield wash jug....tranny lube so thick it snubs the engine when you let the clutch out (in neutral)........Shrinking, leaking, seals in range shifter......Synchro clash cause oil won't squeeze out of plates....Salt chewing holes into everything you drive..... rotten, seized, sticking, throttle pedal assemblies because you get out onto over-salted walk ways and then hop back in with salty feet which also rots out your floor boards because it stays hot and wet and activated on floor.... laying out with salamander heaters shoved into every compartment and getting so nasty cold that your shoe bottoms clap like tap dancing shoes when you walk into the shop only to find they split on the bottom cause the rubber got too cold and now you have wasted $160.....

I'm not bitter, but it gets ridiculous and only the ducks knew enough to get out in time.

It's going to be a mild winter and not much snow.  Put the blankets on the septic field so it will not freeze, and mounted the snowblower on tractor.  Be ready for it and it will not happen.  Love the smell of diesel smoke in the morning, it means the truck started, well at least for a while!

[Mack Technician]

9 hours ago, Keith Pommerening said:

It's going to be a mild winter and not much snow.  Put the blankets on the septic field so it will not freeze, and mounted the snowblower on tractor.  Be ready for it and it will not happen.  Love the smell of diesel smoke in the morning, it means the truck started, well at least for a while!

Hope the prophecy comes true, however, coming up by you Feb 14th and we need a nice, fat, sheet of ice on Leech .  

[1958 F.W.D.]

15 hours ago, hatcity said:

Sorry but I am confused about this "cold", "gelling" stuff

actually, I run Power Service in my tanks every other fill up. mainly, the lubricity factor

Gelling- you know......what happened before you moved to Floriduh. 

[farmer52]

I just bought a case (6-64oz bottles) of Standayne Performance Formula additive on fleabay for $127.90 with free shipping.  Each bottle treats 250 gallons of Diesel fuel.  Here is the link to Alliant who bought the fuel additive business from Stanadyne.

Alliant: https://alliantpower.com/content/alliant-power-diesel-fuel-treatment

Sales flyer: https://alliantpower.com/sites/default/files/documents/ap-product-flyers/2016/ap-ft-us-sales-flyer_en_0.pdf

As for fuel economy improvement...fuel additives will maintain "like new" fuel economy in newer engines (prevent injector and combustion chamber deposits) and improve fuel economy close to "like new" in an older engines (depends on age and deposits).  Real world improvements are typically in the 1%-2%.   Again this will depend on how clean or dirty are your injectors and combustion chamber.  And don't expect a fuel additive to "resolve" other mechanical issues.

On another note: NEVER NEVER put gasoline in Diesel fuel.  As Randy mentioned the flash point is lower but gasoline has lower cetane and NO lubricity.  Diesel engines want high cetane and gasoline engines want high octane.  If you don't want to treat with a fuel additive, at least blend some No. 1 Diesel for winter.  Your fuel economy will drop but it will help prevent fuel gelling.  Another fact about winter Diesel, the winterized fuel will vary from region to region.  That is, fuel in the northern states will be treated for lower temperatures then fuel in southern areas.  So if you buy fuel in the South and drive north to say New England or Canada you may have a fuel gelling issue.

[KDog Trucking]

Well said farmer 52. Likewise, the Cetane rating for southern tier refineries in the Kansas area was running around 48 for the last 6 months. I suppose in theory you could actually cause the cylinders pre-detonate if the cetane went above 55. Only applicable if you went to 2x to 3x the treat rate for most additives. At 46-48, the cetane # is optimal up to about 52-55. 
 

Speaking of more is better: Funny thing about winter additives - they are designed to chemically alter the shape of the wax crystals so they are more pin-like and pass through the pleats of the filters. At 1x the treat rate, they do this effectively. At 2x, (some additives recommend this (so let's just assume this is the optimum treat rate) nothing more should happen, except you just wasted money. Once the change has taken place adding more has no additional benefit. At 3x, the wax crystals fracture and form x like shapes. It's not ideal. Overtreatment with winter additive can cause you to actually chemically gel up. 

Power Service Diesel 911 is popular around here, but it's straight alcohol and should really only be used for an emergency as it also strips lubricity and raises combustion temps. It is hard on fuel pumps/injectors.

[1958 F.W.D.]

This is a great discussion and another reason why I love BMT!!! 

[farmer52]

5 hours ago, farmer52 said:

As for fuel economy improvement...fuel additives will maintain "like new" fuel economy in newer engines (prevent injector and combustion chamber deposits) and improve fuel economy close to "like new" in an older engines (depends on age and deposits).  Real world improvements are typically in the 1%-2%.   Again this will depend on how clean or dirty are your injectors and combustion chamber.  And don't expect a fuel additive to "resolve" other mechanical issues.

I should clarify the "maintain like new fuel economy in newer engines"...don't expect a fuel economy increase just because you use a fuel additive.  You may see a "slight" improvement due to the cetane boost but basically unmeasurable.  Adding a fuel additive in newer engines will prevent deposits from forming in fuel injectors and combustion chamber.  Deposits will eventually degrade fuel economy.  Other than deposits, an additive will boost cetane, add lubricity, and stabilize the fuel.

Cetane controls the rate and smoothness of combustion.  Higher cetane has a decreasing rate of return...a little/some is helpful but MORE is not going to add any benefits.  Higher cetane will decrease the typical "combustion knock" in Diesel engines.  New Diesel engines us pilot injection and ultimately several injections during the combustion event.  This is mainly to reduce emissions.  Older engines with mechanical injection were one "big squirt".  Did you ever notice newer Diesel engines seem to run quieter?  You can thank common rail and electronic technologies.

I agree overtreat is "wasting" your money.  Treat as directed.

Then there are the "coal rollers"...another subject another day.

[Hobert62]

My dad used howes for years.   He noticed 1-2 tenths increase in mpg when using it.    He has a signature 600 cummins and the last while(could be a year or two) has been getting a black snotty gunk in his fuel filters/screens.   Howes wouldn't do anything to it.     He tried hotshot secret and in a few fill ups the gunk is gone.   He gets his fuel at the same 2 or 3 spots all the time.       

Edited October 29, 2017 by Hobert62

[mackey58]

Not to mention  mack tech the way the calcium eats the wiring  and messes up the brake shoes  awww man I live winter 

[BillyT]

Freightrain does power service still have the purple color? It's been decades since I've used it! FWD, I wasn't recommending gasoline as an additive,just saying I heard some guys use it! I sure wouldn't use it! My dad used to put atf in an engine with sticking lifters (one qt)  seemed to work, probably the high detergency !

[BillyT]

They say" it's an Ill wind that blows nobody good" In 1977  when it went to 25 below in the steel valley, I was welding the bottoms of Jones and Laughlin coal barge fleet 40 ft from the monongehela river! But when I got off I was thawing frozen pipe with my gas drive welder! Froze my butt off but made a ton of money! It's going down to 39 degrees tonite in West central Florida and we think it's cold😁 like Hat City said what's that gelling stuff! The coldest I've ever been was in1990 I think when I picked up a load of conversion vans in Bristol In. it was 25 below in Chicago I got frostbite chaining the load,I actually paid to get on the Indiana toll road to have a place to sleep!that's when I found out they double the rate if you're on the pike more than 12 hrs! Was well worth it! The next day on my way to Florida you couldn't count the frozen trucks on the shoulder north of Indy! I had a gallon of power service in my tanks so no problem! Ironically the only time I've ever had frozen water pipes of my own was here in Florida when it hit 18 degrees! The plumbing on our wellheads is pcv and above ground! Had to use a propane torch( very carefully!) To thaw them! I have a plywood enclosure around the plumbing now!😁

[farmer52]

9 hours ago, Hobert62 said:

My dad used howes for years.   He noticed 1-2 tenths increase in mpg when using it.    He has a signature 600 cummins and the last while(could be a year or two) has been getting a black snotty gunk in his fuel filters/screens.   Howes wouldn't do anything to it.     He tried hotshot secret and in a few fill ups the gunk is gone.   He gets his fuel at the same 2 or 3 spots all the time.       

The black slime is "bugs" or bacteria growth.  Typical fuel additives do not address bugs.  You need a fuel biocide to kill the bugs.  Bugs grow at the interface between the fuel and water (water is on the bottom of the tank).  Be sure to drain the water from the bottom of the tank occasionally to prevent bacteria growth.

9 hours ago, BillyT said:

Freightrain does power service still have the purple color? It's been decades since I've used it! FWD, I wasn't recommending gasoline as an additive,just saying I heard some guys use it! I sure wouldn't use it! My dad used to put atf in an engine with sticking lifters (one qt)  seemed to work, probably the high detergency !

All fuel additives should be clear.  Per the regs, all ON-HIGHWAY Diesel fuel cannot contain any color or dye.  Only OFF-ROAD fuel can be dyed (typically red).  Many years ago "premium" Diesel fuel was dyed green but since the regulation, one cannot tell by "color" if a fuel is premium or contains an additive.  Only if it is on or off highway.  BTW, this past summer when I went to Des Moines for the ATHS show, I refueled at truck stops.  I noticed at several stops, the fuel was dark.  I prefer not to refuel at truck stops but they are convenient when traveling cross country.  I try to avoid truck stops because of the potential for "off spec" fuel (think about it, you fill up in New York and have issues in a distant location...makes it difficult to trace the fuel?).  Also for many years, truck stops were suspected of dumping used oil into the fuel rather than pay to have the used oil disposed.  I heard (and saw) too many horror stories concerning "truck stop fuel".

Billy T - wasn't suggesting you were recommending "gasoline", just making the statement not to use gasoline.

[KDog Trucking]

I remember seeing ads for the green fuel. We called ours GHP - for Greater Horse Power back in the 50's and 60's. Then red became the color for premium diesel and that was called Ruby. The gov't started adding red dye to off-road and now the only way you know you're getting a premium fuel is that it's on the bill of lading or you're adding it yourself or to purchase from a trusted supplier.

A lot of people still reference Amoco Premier diesel around here, but that hasn't been available since early 2000's. It was a very good fuel and they did a great job marketing it.
 

Interesting post about the oil in the truck stop fuel Farmer52. I've never heard that. I would assume anything is possible if they can get away with it.
 

I know most of the truck stops around the Midwest use biodiesel blends up to 20% to achieve a lower price point. Be aware that animal based bio blends begin to gel at 50 degrees F, so you should avoid filling up where this is sold at all costs if heading north (a B10 blend would start to gel at 10-15 degrees!).
 

A B20 blend of bio might start gelling up at 15-20 degrees. Soy and vegetable oil blends should gel around 14 degrees, assuming it was B100, which it typically isn't. So if you fill at Love's or Flying J, expect that your #2 fuel will gel around that point, and any additive will get you to around 0 degrees with no #1, assuming you have a 10 micron suction stage filter. 

Not sure how you can know what the source of biodiesel is - vegetable or animal based. Depends largely on the location. For example IL is all vegetable based bio blends.

 

 

[farmer52]

6 hours ago, kamp_dogg said:

A lot of people still reference Amoco Premier diesel around here, but that hasn't been available since early 2000's. It was a very good fuel and they did a great job marketing it.

Amoco was bought by BP.  BP Supreme (Amoco Premier) Diesel fuel "was" a very good straight run Diesel fuel.  It was actually closer to a #1 but did meet the #2 specs.  It had high natural cetane and was very stable.  We used it for baseline testing "back in the day".  But as you mention, I doubt it is available anymore considering the cost of refining, etc.

As for bio...the only thing good about bio is it "helps the farmers" - I think.  Both ethanol and bio have "issues" when it comes to operability and emissions.  Best to use corn, beans, etc. as a food source.  Difficult to get non-bio Diesel most places.