Norfolk Southern Sues Over Millions of Rail Ties It Calls Defective

[kscarbel2]

Transport Topics  /  October 30, 2017

ATLANTA — Norfolk Southern Railway has filed a federal lawsuit against an Alabama company, claiming the company failed to use proper protective coating on more than 4.7 million wooden railroad ties.

Norfolk Southern says it is being forced to replace millions of defective railroad ties because they’re degrading faster than expected, the company said in a lawsuit filed this month in U.S. District Court in Alabama.

Instead of using materials that preserve the wood, officials with Boatright Railroad Products Inc. ordered workers to “make them black by whatever means necessary” so they appeared to be properly treated but were not, Norfolk Southern maintains in the suit.

“So long as the railroad ties had the same physical appearance as a tie that had been properly treated, it did not matter to defendants if the substance used to ‘make it black’ was actually a wood preservative at all.”

Motor oil, anti-freeze, paint and other substances that would not effectively preserve the wood were used on the ties instead of creosote — the chemical which should have been used, the company alleges.

Boatright also provided misleading samples to a consultant for the railroad who was checking on the quality of its work, the lawsuit alleges. The Alabama firm’s employees were instructed to take the consultant out hunting at the same time he was to be inspecting railroad ties being treated at the facility, the lawsuit states.

A lawyer who represented Boatright in previous legal matters didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment Oct. 30.

Properly treated rail ties are “crucial” to the railroad’s operations, as untreated ones can “degrade and deteriorate prematurely, thereby jeopardizing the safety and integrity of Norfolk Southern’s rail network and the interstate rail network as a whole,” the company’s complaint states.

Safety is a top priority, and Norfolk Southern “continues to inspect and closely monitor the condition of all cross ties across its rail network in accordance with the highest industry standards,” the railroad said in a statement Oct. 30 to The Associated Press.

“Any tie found to be experiencing premature degradation will be replaced before it can pose a risk to safety,” the statement said.

Several Amtrak routes use Norfolk Southern’s tracks for passenger trains. It’s possible that passengers could face some delays as ties are replaced, said Sean Jeans-Gail, vice president of government affairs and policy at the National Association of Railroad Passengers.

The state of the nation’s railroad tracks has come under scrutiny in recent months amid concerns about derailments of lengthy trains hauling oil or ethanol in the Midwest and the South. The National Academies of Sciences recently called for more thorough inspections of freight railroad tracks. More frequent inspections are needed to prevent potentially catastrophic derailments of trains hauling oil and ethanol in which ruptured tank cars can produce giant fireballs, the scientific organization said in a report this month.

Virginia-based Norfolk Southern operates freight trains in more than 20 states in the southern and eastern United States.

From 2009 to 2014, Boatright provided Norfolk Southern with nearly 5 million railroad ties, and virtually all of them were installed in the railroad’s network, the lawsuit said. About 4.5 million of them are described as cross ties; and 193,000 are switch ties. Also included in the total are about 72,000 inferior bridge ties, according to the suit.

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[kscarbel2]

You expect to read about such an occurrence in China.

My question is, why is Norfolk Southern still using wooden railroad ties in year 2017?

The answer must lie around why the greatest country on earth has one of the worst railway systems.

 

[Maxidyne]

We still use wood ties because the railroads have tried concrete ties and found they didn't always work better- Wood ties can flex with the loads where concrete is unforgiving and brittle. We have the best freight rail system in the world, our passenger rail system is another matter.

[BillyT]

Interesting subject! Isn't Norfolk Southern owned by Berkshire Hathaway? I wish Boatright a lot of luck! I sure wouldn't want to be sued by Warren Buffet! I don't know if our roadbeds are in better condition now than when I was a freight car repairman in the early eighties,but the crossties in our section of right of way used to jump up and down like the keys on a piano when a train went by!

[macks in nigeria]

2 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

You expect to read about such an occurrence in China.

My question is, why is Norfolk Southern still using wooden railroad ties in year 2017?

The answer must lie around why the greatest country on earth has one of the worst railway systems.

 

Greed can occur wherever you have individuals without scruples.

[macks in nigeria]

2 hours ago, Maxidyne said:

We still use wood ties because the railroads have tried concrete ties and found they didn't always work better- Wood ties can flex with the loads where concrete is unforgiving and brittle. We have the best freight rail system in the world, our passenger rail system is another matter.

Concrete is known for expansion and contraction so I think it will flex too.It's all still about quality.Most of the new rail lines been built around the world today are using concrete sleepers.

Edited October 31, 2017 by macks in nigeria
spelling

[Maxidyne]

2 hours ago, BillyT said:

Interesting subject! Isn't Norfolk Southern owned by Berkshire Hathaway? I wish Boatright a lot of luck! I sure wouldn't want to be sued by Warren Buffet! I don't know if our roadbeds are in better condition now than when I was a freight car repairman in the early eighties,but the crossties in our section of right of way used to jump up and down like the keys on a piano when a train went by!

Berkshire Hathaway owns BNSF. They also own more wind energy than anyone else in America... Will BNSF be electrified?

[HeavyGunner]

2 hours ago, Maxidyne said:

Berkshire Hathaway owns BNSF. They also own more wind energy than anyone else in America... Will BNSF be electrified?

Not with wind energy. Not dependable enough. Wind doesn’t blow the train doesn’t move. 

[Maxidyne]

I'm sure they'd tie into the grid so they had access to a wider array of generation options- Wind, solar, natural gas, hydro, coal, etc..

[41chevy]

4 hours ago, macks in nigeria said:

Concrete is known for expansion and contraction so I think it will flex too.It's all still about quality.Most of the new rail lines been built around the world today are using concrete sleepers.

It doesn't have the compressabilty that wood has for their use plus you need to look at the length and load of our cross country freights. Most on the Eastern seaboard run 5000 to 6600 feet long and some in Canada are running close to 12,000 feet long or longer.

BNSF and  Norfolk both generally run freight length by their 10 minute rule for crossings.

Edited October 31, 2017 by 41chevy

[Red Horse]

10 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

You expect to read about such an occurrence in China.

My question is, why is Norfolk Southern still using wooden railroad ties in year 2017?

The answer must lie around why the greatest country on earth has one of the worst railway systems.

 

Kevin,  The countryside in this part of New England has plenty of concrete ties stacked up from a huge failed experiment from about 20 years ago.  Don't know what the cause of the failure was but they did n ot stay in service long.  Instead of being cast as a typical square/rectangular shape they had raised sections at the tie plates.  They make great retaining walls if appearance doesn't count and when you go into ready mix plants, asphalt plants , sand and gravel screening operations you see them employed as walls or containment bins.

[kscarbel2]

Bob, concrete ties work great if they are properly designed and installed, in all temperature and elevation extremes.

China is a prime example. They have the largest rail system in the world today, both passenger and freight. And the level is on par with Western Europe and Japan.

How China can leap forward in 30 years time while we crawl (and that's being generous) is damning.

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[Lmackattack]

Seams railroads use Wood or concrete in specific parts of the country. What works in the south does not work as well in the north.  Last I read about them was that there was no real cost savings to run concrete as the life span and maintance was not any better. The one thing that was better with concrete ties was that they offer a more solid attachment to the rails than say spikes. 

[blackdog2]

That will help the small like PERMA-TREAT  witch is owned by the Mellon family witch owns or did Gulf oil Mellon bank Holiday inn PPg  LIRR  the price of oil went up so they skimp .

[fxfymn]

A good friend owns a small saw mill that sells a lot of ties. I'm sure he and a lot of other sawyers are smiling.

[Hobert62]

33 minutes ago, fxfymn said:

A good friend owns a small saw mill that sells a lot of ties. I'm sure he and a lot of other sawyers are smiling.

Local guy around here does the same.  

[41chevy]

On 10/31/2017 at 8:27 PM, kscarbel2 said:

Bob, concrete ties work great if they are properly designed and installed, in all temperature and elevation extremes.

China is a prime example. They have the largest rail system in the world today, both passenger and freight. And the level is on par with Western Europe and Japan.

How China can leap forward in 30 years time while we crawl (and that's being generous) is damning.

 

Look at China's "edge". State owned R.R., cheap labor, no union to help or hinder, no "social programs"  and no EPA,  Save the (fill in the plant or animal) Groups or NIBY's to list a few differences. Basically they build like Robert Moses did in N.Y.S. in the 30's to 60's.

Edited November 2, 2017 by 41chevy

[fxfymn]

When I was in Japan I commented about how the passenger rail system was so superior to ours and the reply I got was "Of course, we bombed them back to oblivion, so they got to start fresh".

And given the option I'd prefer not to trade lung disease for a faster train.

[kscarbel2]

22 hours ago, 41chevy said:

Look at China's "edge". State owned R.R., cheap labor, no union to help or hinder, no "social programs"  and no EPA,  Save the (fill in the plant or animal) Groups or NIBY's to list a few differences. Basically they build like Robert Moses did in N.Y.S. in the 30's to 60's.

I have no problem with a government-owned rail system if it is managed well. AMTRAK never has been.

Labor's not cheap there anymore. Those are the old days.

They have unions (ACFTU), but they don't hinder.

They have more social programs than the US.

They have an EPA....The Ministry of Environmental Protection

And speaking on renewable energy spending, they want from 64 gigawatts in 2011 to 287 in 2016.

[HeavyGunner]

21 minutes ago, kscarbel2 said:

I have no problem with a government-owned rail system if it is managed well. AMTRAK never has been.

Labor's not cheap there anymore. Those are the old days.

They have unions (ACFTU), but they don't hinder.

They have more social programs than the US.

They have an EPA....The Ministry of Environmental Protection

Amtrak will never be successful enough to make it on its own with out being subsidized. I’m in eastern Montana and there is one rail for east bound and west bound trains to share. Freight trains make a lot of money so stopping them for Amtrak doesn’t make much sense. On top of that we average 50 trains a day so Amtrak is never on time and will always have to be subsidized unless they put their own tracks in which we know isn’t economically feasible. China’s epa is laughable at best KS, remember the 08 olympics? They had to shut down all the factories in he area before any athletes would go there because the air quality is so bad. That’s also why we send all our manufacturing there because no epa regulating them out of business.

 

[kscarbel2]

Beijing is like Los Angeles (except it has more good Chinese restaurants). The mountains block the wind from blowing it out. Nice city in a terrible location. and that was almost 10 years ago. Not the same country. Look out over any city from a high-rise and you'll see major skyline changes by the day.

[41chevy]

9 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

I have no problem with a government-owned rail system if it is managed well. AMTRAK never has been.

Labor's not cheap there anymore. Those are the old days.

They have unions (ACFTU), but they don't hinder.

They have more social programs than the US.

They have an EPA....The Ministry of Environmental Protection

And speaking on renewable energy spending, they want from 64 gigawatts in 2011 to 287 in 2016.

There are still large areas of wage disparity and large areas of workers earning slave wages. The unions have always been part of China since Mao's time, but only around 2010 did they become somewhat of an aid to the members in some of the larger industrial areas. The first article is from the China Labor Bulletin. Second from GP Morgan Chase   "Skills Shortage in the Chinese Market"

http://www.clb.org.hk/content/wages-and-employment

 

https://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/Corporate-Responsibility/document/skillsgap-in-chineselabor-market-exec-summary.pdf

While wages in general have risen steadily, incomes of high-skill workers have grown much faster than average. As a rough guideline, education levels of workers can be used to gauge their skill levels. In 2007, the average wage of workers with at least a college education was 1.86 times higher than that of workers with a middle school education or lower. This figure increased to 2.75 times in 2013

China is transitioning up the value chain from the ‘world’s factory’ for low-end products to a purveyor of quality information products, high- end technology and services. This has led to a greater demand for labor with upgraded skills and competence. Data from the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security shows that skilled workers account for only about 19% of the entire workforce, with highly skilled workers constituting only 5%. Although the demand for low-skilled labor is substantial, because of the abundant supply, there is almost no demand-supply gap in the low-skilled group

Edited November 3, 2017 by 41chevy

[Hobert62]

I noticed today the local Norfolk line has a lot of new ties staged to replace old ones.     They appear to have a pressure treated "green" appearance instead Of the black creosote look. 

[2006Largecar]

You guys are comparing apples to oranges when you compare China's passenger rail to that of the US.  First off, you forget that in America, liability and safety practices greatly limit efficiency and productivity.  Lets not forget the wreck in 2011, where Chinese officials tried to literally cover up the wreck.  Pieces of the wreck were buried on site.  Can you imagine if we still did that today?  I know that is how things used to get done in America, but not anymore.  Today there are a line of Lawyers surrounding the accident site.  When China wants to build a new line, they just do it; they don't care whats in the way or what it costs.  New Jersey transit has been trying to expand a line by only a few miles by my mom's house.  They've been fighting to reinstate a section of track that operated in the seventies.  The fight has been going on almost as long as I have been on earth.  They finally got approval, started clearing the trees, and dumping stone.  They even started laying concrete ties and new rail, only to be stopped again by people who are complaining about the death trains running through their  backyards.  For the past number of years the line acts as a highway for dirt bikes and quads.  My brother is an engineer between Washington and New York.  At the end of the day, American passenger rail is capable of higher speeds, and tighter scheduling, but God forbid there is a wreck of some sort.  Amtrak has been dumbed down, and they wouldn't know what a real passenger train experience is.  US railroads are spending billions of dollars in signaling systems to try and prevent wrecks. When half the problem can be attributed to guys who are a poor excuse for railroad employees.  Its just like trucking, they design the new stuff so any idiot can run it, and that's exactly what you get.  The day when a railroader took pride in his job, is gone.  I can go on and on, but for what ever reason, that's the way it is.    

[BillyT]

As usual, lots of facts and responsible opinions! You would have to work for the railroad (like I did) to understand why we are so behind the rest of the world in rail transportation! First of all I believe in organized labor as it was originally meant to be! Safe conditions, and a living wage and reasonable work hours! When I went to work for the Pittsburgh and Lake Erie RR I started as a "laborer" the term is a misnomer! I'm sweeping up rod stubs on my first day (easy work a child could do!) An older employee comes up to me in anger! "What the f..k are you doing,you're making us look bad!" He was referring to the fact I was actually working! Duh,I thought that was what I was paid to do! The same day I see this 70 year old dude dragging a sheet of 3/4" plywood a couple of hundred yards and he lays it under a caboose on a dead track! I'm really impressed at how hard this old guy is working! Then he lays down on the plywood and goes to sleep in plain view of everyone including his boss! Our main customer was Jones and Laughlin Steel Corp, and when the mills in America started closing we started to rebuild freight cars to make up for lost freight revenue. We had a hundred car order of cement hoppers going to Mexico! The cast steel center plates on these cars required low hydrogen 7018 electrode. Well,as you welders know LH wire requires a fairly high level of skill in the overhead position! Most jobs on this(and I assume) most union railroads go by seniority not skill! Many of the high seniority welders at this facility were not qualified with LH, so they used 6010 electrode cranked up high so they could get done quickly! These cars were on an assembly line track so the workers on each position could loaf in the lunchroom until the line moved! The Mexican railroad sent an inspector to certify the finished cars and they all failed! Any qualified welder or inspector can tell the difference between a 6010 bead and a 7018 bead! Every Friday after my regular shift was done I spent 8 hours @time and a half scarfing out the center plates and installing new ones with 7018 electrode! The use of the 6010 ruined the center plates so I had to install new ones! Of course this delayed the delivery of the cars so I'm sure the Mexican railroad would go elsewhere for their next order! This is the same facility where we got paid at 2pm on Thursday and quite a few workers would get their pay and punch their time card and go home! The union tolerated this behavior! They did get a reprimand in the mail😁 The railroad began to issue the paychecks later in the day so the guys wouldn't go home early! One Friday I was working a double shift@ time and a half, and a fellow who usually drove the little Cushman delivery buggy reported for a double shift falling down drunk and went to sleep on the large tool box! The foreman woke him up and said "Eddie, go to work or go home!" I was "heatin' and beatin" where you heat the bent grab rails on a rail car and your partner beat them back into shape with a 9 lb sledge! Well,guess who my partner was?! Eddie was about 145 lbs and missed the grab rail with the sledge and almost hit me in the crotch! The second time this happened I sent Eddie to work with someone else and did both jobs myself! Laid the Rosebud on the coupler, and beat the grab rail myself! This same dude didn't come to work for 30 days (without notice) and they fired him! You were allowed to not go to work for 29 days, but they fired you after 30! The union got his job back!😁 large car you're right about pride in your job!