Volvo/Mack Chicago training center

[Dirtymilkman]

12 minutes ago, Hayseed said:

I'm surprised they haven't gone Camless...& Actuate the valves By Solenoid..

But as Swishy  is wont to say..

Waddaeyekno...

Wayyyy back when I was in college, (in the 90's) ih had the power stroke engine camless. HEUI But the problem was starting it. It had to build enough oil pressure to get everything where it was needed and manage not to smash valves or worse. In the cold weather it wouldn't work for them. 

[turckster]

Looks very much like the training center in Dallas/Ft Worth

[Mack Technician]

1 hour ago, 41chevy said:

Musk states a 30 minute charge =400 miles.  We'll see as he is going to run some from his factory in Cali to his other factory in Nevada, 220 each way with Donner Pass thrown in.

Donner pass....whew! It'd be pretty (historically) ironic if Elon breaks down and has to BBQ his poodle to survive.  

[Hayseed]

4 hours ago, Dirtymilkman said:

Wayyyy back when I was in college, (in the 90's) ih had the power stroke engine camless. HEUI But the problem was starting it. It had to build enough oil pressure to get everything where it was needed and manage not to smash valves or worse. In the cold weather it wouldn't work for them. 

Didn't Cat have that HEUI Bizzo Too?? 

3126 or C10 rings a Bell !!

[Dirtymilkman]

3 hours ago, Hayseed said:

Didn't Cat have that HEUI Bizzo Too?? 

3126 or C10 rings a Bell !!

Yepper. Cat and ih joint designed it. Or cat design and Navistar borrowed it. I can't remember which way it was. I know John Deere used cat injection designs too. 

[fjh]

14 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

If this is accurate......tisk..tisk...tisk Volvo.

Volvo/ Mack will be shutting out (not shutting down) Emedia. Everyone will have access to the old information. They will put the info cut-line at post 2016. They will only be including information they have to legally present in open books, namely certain emissions system information. I'm going to save my rant, I did it on last weeks post, all ranted out on intellectual property warfare.

Ok, one more rant.....

There are two business models running parallel in our country. The European business model and OURS. The European model is about to come to complete fruition right before your eyes. Get ready to be injected with ignorance unless you are a dealership. No angst against BMT dealership mechanics, you guys are the new Robin Hoods of Mack Trucks.       

 

I Think the whole intent here and its Not just Volvo or MACK but   BY ALL manufacturers IS to captivate AS MANY parts and intellectual Properties as possible.  that way THEY GOTCHA ! Good for them their dealers and techs, Consumer NOT SO MUCH!  Entrapment at its finest!

This way they keep ya comin back to buy the dollar store sensors and cheap wiring and crap they install on the cheaply  build Short term 5  year life cycle vehicles they build ! Terribly  good for business not so much for the environment or your pocket book!

 

My Rant for the last ten years 

[KDog Trucking]

Thank you for the discussion. Fascinating! Not knowing much about Mack's I am surprised to hear Volvo/Mack only recently adopted the High Pressure Common Rail instead of unit injection. I was thinking Paccar was the last to abandon unit injection in 2013. 

Awesome post! Thanks!

[Mack Technician]

7 hours ago, kamp_dogg said:

Thank you for the discussion. Fascinating! Not knowing much about Mack's I am surprised to hear Volvo/Mack only recently adopted the High Pressure Common Rail instead of unit injection. I was thinking Paccar was the last to abandon unit injection in 2013. 

Awesome post! Thanks!

They have created an ingenious fuel system on this engine. I'm going to cut my posts out of the start of the thread so I can add the pictures of the fuel system. No blowing smoke, it is jaw dropping clever. Seen a bunch of conversions to high rail, but this tops them all. 

[Dirtymilkman]

56 minutes ago, Mack Technician said:

They have created an ingenious fuel system on this engine. I'm going to cut my posts out of the start of the thread so I can add the pictures of the fuel system. No blowing smoke, it is jaw dropping clever. Seen a bunch of conversions to high rail, but this tops them all. 

Is this sarcasm?

[Mack Technician]

20 hours ago, Dirtymilkman said:

Is this sarcasm?

Not a bit of sarcasm. I could not figure it out when I first looked at it. After looking at the operation it is crazy smart. 

[turckster]

3 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

Not a bit of sarcasm. I could not figure it out when I first looked at it. After looking at the operation it is crazy smart. 

I thought the same thing when I first looked at the inside of the common rail engine. Rather than a radical design change they adapted what they had, using 3 injectors to act as high psi pumps instead of using a mechanical pump. I thought that was cool. 

[Mackpro]

We have 8 common rail engines running around here for the last 7 months, so far so good.  We have not had to pull a valve cover yet. I was hoping they would put a high pressure fuel pump where the REPTO /flywheel pto goes and redrill the head and go towards a more traditional form of common rail but so far this seems to work. 

[Lmackattack]

Am I the only one here that is thinking all this "forward thinking" is nothing but foolish ways to make a diesel more complicated than it needs to be. Air and fuel is what a diesel needs. Stuffing a valve cover with electronics and fuel lines around moving parts just makes repair tasks and costs that much more.  A turbo with a trick expensive device that puts more HP into the engine yet will likely fail a few times in the trucks life time or cause a major failure of the engine?  did that "50hp" device truly deliver a need for the engine vs bumping the fuel up to compensate some more HP?  I can under stand a common rail thru the head (not valve cover) as it heats the fuel and centralizes the fuel feed path in the heads for all  injectors. but as we saw with other Diesel engines that can put fuel in the crank case/or coolant system when it does fail. You know what I think more people would like to see. A engine that they can work on and trouble shoot. Could you imagine fleet spec trucks that the company mechanic could do most of the work on? I look at older engines both gas and Diesel then look at the new junk and have to wonder who the hell really thinks we have built better new designs than the more simplified older engines. Some things we cant argue like today's machining process and tighter fitment of parts for reliability emissions etc...but they way we have arrived is 180 from the standard.

 

end rant

 

Trent

[Mack Technician]

11 hours ago, Lmackattack said:

Am I the only one here that is thinking all this "forward thinking" is nothing but foolish ways to make a diesel more complicated than it needs to be. Air and fuel is what a diesel needs. Stuffing a valve cover with electronics and fuel lines around moving parts just makes repair tasks and costs that much more.  A turbo with a trick expensive device that puts more HP into the engine yet will likely fail a few times in the trucks life time or cause a major failure of the engine?  did that "50hp" device truly deliver a need for the engine vs bumping the fuel up to compensate some more HP?  I can under stand a common rail thru the head (not valve cover) as it heats the fuel and centralizes the fuel feed path in the heads for all  injectors. but as we saw with other Diesel engines that can put fuel in the crank case/or coolant system when it does fail. You know what I think more people would like to see. A engine that they can work on and trouble shoot. Could you imagine fleet spec trucks that the company mechanic could do most of the work on? I look at older engines both gas and Diesel then look at the new junk and have to wonder who the hell really thinks we have built better new designs than the more simplified older engines. Some things we cant argue like today's machining process and tighter fitment of parts for reliability emissions etc...but they way we have arrived is 180 from the standard.

 

end rant

 

Trent

Good rant man. I can only imagine the engine would be perfected by now without emissions. It would be sort of like the modern airplane that has become very reliable, has to remain reliable, and become increasingly reliable, despite emmissions. 

We would regard engines like our television and cell phone, just a wall flower item that we use and not worry about repairing. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mack Technician

[41chevy]

Is this system made by Volvo's supplier Delphi? 

[Dirtymilkman]

Imagine a mp10 with a mechanical inline pump and a big ass turbo or two. I'm told the bottom end of the MP's are total bullet proof. 

 

[Maxidyne]

Would probably get less HP with a mechanical pump- Electronic injection can control more dimensions of the fuel injection with more precision than mechanical ever could. The big turbos though would help provided you could scale the venturi opening to suit RPM, load, etc..

[Lmackattack]

 just seeing how things are done in auto racing where they push things to extreme weight savings and built with little regard to a long life cycle as the race parts just get replaced very often anyways. I see this similarity in new gas and diesel engines. These auto and truck mfgs are not pushing for longevity and simplicity they are pushing for a light weight complex engine that runs great when the 20 things bolted to it are working. but if one part rusts clogs, or a sensor goes bad it then takes out other possible major parts with it and makes the engine a turd.  With a truck you don't even want to think about this kind of stuff. A truck should make it until half or 3/4 of a normal service life of a tractor for when nickle and dime stuff starts to fail.  This is where I just cant wrap my head around the concept of a Class 8 engine builder building a solid engine platform and then littering it with lots of high cost complex parts. I know the EPA is a major blame to this so I do see the issues from both the builders perspective as well.

[Mack Technician]

2 hours ago, 41chevy said:

Is this system made by Volvo's supplier Delphi? 

I didn't see Delphi on anything. 

[Mack Technician]

This is what you will see when you pop the top and remove the rockers. They have three cylinder, like the one centered, which only receive high pressure delivery. The other three have what look like traditional EUP style injectors. Frank sent us right in and said strip in down to all pistons removed and one liner removed, you have two hours. First reaction is "WHAT"! Why are there three unit pump injectors!!

On the three spring loaded units.......

The top section is a cam driven pump section that feeds the rail for all injectors. The three pumpers each have a double bump cam lobe driving them. So you have six pump actions per single cam revolution.......so now you have enough flow for everyone with only three pumps, but stroking twice. Rail can hit 34,000 PSI. 

The center section of the pumper injector is the metering section.

The lower section of the pumper injector is the delivery section. 

The shorty, none pumping injector, is just a delivery section. No three layers. 

 

Fun part is you can apparently dump a pump section on a big injector and keep going till you lose a second pumper. You can not run on less than two pumps. Has redundancy so you can also lose portions of the rail pressure control and logic will keep it running.

Rail has a minimum pressure to start. going to say 5K psi, going on memory. Will be a 5 second cycle to start unless you shut it down and restart before the rail pressure trickles off. Said the rail pressure takes 5 minutes to trickle off completely. 

 

The pumper injector is AC flow. It moves fluid out of it's line and then allows fluid to move back toward the injector so the low section can deliver. In theory a pump injector never consumes its own pressure/flow. It never swallows an injection while it is pump stroking. So two positive displacements and one staggered consumption of a different pumps output.  

Pretty simple, smart answer to making a big jump in the fuel system. IMO,,,,,

Special emphasis on setting up the fuel rail so it is well aligned and not internally stressed, causing cracks. Also caution on starting all hig pressure rail fuel lines to snug and then backing off a fuzz before torquing injector down. You want the line to be perfectly aligned and injector perfectly postioned so line does not have internal stress when final torqued. 

Cam is missing every other injector pump load. 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mack Technician

[Mack Technician]

[Mack Technician]

Some bad news. Found out Dean Luttrell died, Dec 8 2014........58yrs. Rough departure. The five times I trained under him He was a great instructor and pleasant fellow. RIP.

 

"My dearest brother ~ I can't begin to tell you how very much you are missed. My heart is broken and not a moment goes bye without a thought of you.. You leaving us is devastating, I just wish you could have seen how much you were looked up too for so many things.. Your my big brother and I cant get over losing you. I am waiting for a phone call on my way home from work everyday, so we could have one of our chats .. I hear the little silly things you would say over and over in my head.. Your jokes and humor that sometimes only you and I got. I miss you dearly and which I could go back in time and change things... I miss you, and know that you no longer struggle and are released from whatever pain you were dealing with.. Please watch over all of us, and help give us the strength to continue to deal with losing you XOXO
Always ~ Sis"

 

 

Debbie Klimczak - December 18, 2014 at 12:00 PM

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mack Technician

[Mack Technician]

3 hours ago, Lmackattack said:

 just seeing how things are done in auto racing where they push things to extreme weight savings and built with little regard to a long life cycle as the race parts just get replaced very often anyways. I see this similarity in new gas and diesel engines. These auto and truck mfgs are not pushing for longevity and simplicity they are pushing for a light weight complex engine that runs great when the 20 things bolted to it are working. but if one part rusts clogs, or a sensor goes bad it then takes out other possible major parts with it and makes the engine a turd.  With a truck you don't even want to think about this kind of stuff. A truck should make it until half or 3/4 of a normal service life of a tractor for when nickle and dime stuff starts to fail.  This is where I just cant wrap my head around the concept of a Class 8 engine builder building a solid engine platform and then littering it with lots of high cost complex parts. I know the EPA is a major blame to this so I do see the issues from both the builders perspective as well.

Another healthy Rant . Full doseage of vitamin "R" going out to the EPA this thread.  

 

Went to the VFW for A night out. The one a few blocks East of Larkin (hwy 7). Nice place, $1 for a pint glass of beer.  

[Lmackattack]

11 hours ago, Dirtymilkman said:

Imagine a mp10 with a mechanical inline pump and a big ass turbo or two. I'm told the bottom end of the MP's are total bullet proof. 

 

I recall Pittsburgh power made a conversion on a Electronic cat over to mechanical. I think it was before the days of people getting their hands into the ECM and such. Wonder how reliable it was? I would love to see a mack MP8 or MP10 done up the same way and see if it performs better or worse than these current ones with all the garbage bolted to them.

[Maxidyne]

The 60 series Detroit was an electronic engine from the start, way back in the mid 80s when emissions standards were pretty lax. If mechanical injection control is so great, how come Detroit didn't go mechanical?