Only right turns....

[wyodog]

Hello! I haven't posted anything in a very long time. A few reasons for that but the short story is I have been struggling with my truck in a few ways, and she is not getting driven. As you know, when things sit, they start to deteriorate, and my truck is no exception.

One of the biggest reasons I have not been driving my truck is the steering. I have problems with the poppets, and I am either way to stupid to figure out to adjust them correctly, or there is more going on with my steering box then I know. In short, I can't turn left, unless Popeye is driving. She fights me the entire turn and more often than not on tight turns off the road I go.

The box on this truck is an older Sheppard box which I can't find any parts for anymore. Even after working with the nice people at Sheppard left me with few options. For me to even go down the road of rebuilding this box, means pulling the engine. The truck has the original END673. If I am going to go through the hassle of doing all of this, My thought would be to get a school bus with a DT466 and an Alison and just do a full swap along with re-doing the steering to something more modern and serviceable.

When I restored the truck originally the steering box we knew had some issues. We pulled the worm gear out and have to sleeve it, and re-do the top seals. I remember before we tore the truck down, the steering while super leaky, had no issues steering. But pulling that worm gear/top section. It just never was right after that (doesn't leak anymore though...).

A lot of money, and effort into something cause I can figure out poppets right... Now I know a full swap isn't required, but hard to want to put that END673 back in her. Even if I could pick up a 237 maxidyne with a turbo, would be a good move.

But this all leads me to the truck has sat for the last two years, and in the last 4, I have maybe put 15 miles on her. I am at the crossroads of either needing to get her running to where she is truly roadworthy, or I need to find her a new home... I got her fired this weekend, battery charged, and running so I could pull her into the new shelter. Built a 30x30 shelter to where I have at least gotten her out of the sun, hail, etc. At least when pulling her into the new parking spot, it was a right-hand turn... :-)

[carlotpilot]

are you saying that in order to change the steering box the motor has to come out ?

[wyodog]

Correct, the box that is in, we tried pulling out. But it looks like the previous owners (A cement company here in Northern CO) might have put in a steering box that was out of an R model. When trying to drop it from the frame, it hits the engine block. We would have to lift and shift the engine out to pull the box. We tried doing this a while back ago, and when we realized what it was really going to take we just bolted everything back in place.

[carlotpilot]

2 minutes ago, wyodog said:

Correct, the box that is in, we tried pulling out. But it looks like the previous owners (A cement company here in Northern CO) might have put in a steering box that was out of an R model. When trying to drop it from the frame, it hits the engine block. We would have to lift and shift the engine out to pull the box. We tried doing this a while back ago, and when we realized what it was really going to take we just bolted everything back in place.

have`nt run in to that mess before but i suppose it could happen , box i assume is inside the frame rail ?

[wyodog]

Correct. inside the frame rail. The Truck is a B55 and was originally ordered as a cement truck. There are some guesses as to where this steering box came from, as I said might be off of an R, or the guy who I bought the truck from thinks it came that way. Anyone who has seen it, and knows B models always tells me that it isn't original.

[41chevy]

I would pop the drag link at the box and see how the box works alone.

Edited January 8, 2018 by 41chevy

[carlotpilot]

1 minute ago, wyodog said:

Correct. inside the frame rail. The Truck is a B55 and was originally ordered as a cement truck. There are some guesses as to where this steering box came from, as I said might be off of an R, or the guy who I bought the truck from thinks it came that way. Anyone who has seen it, and knows B models always tells me that it isn't original.

do you have any really good pics, of it from different angles

[wyodog]

I was just looking through my albums to see, and I don't think I do. I will need to take some. Only ones I could find are the pics I took of the steering box end cap to get the model info from. Will need to take some pics...

[carlotpilot]

paul     has a good idea to   check the box with out the pitman hooked up and see how it acts    and get us some pics  may not help but can`t hurt either. can``t imagine someone pulling an engine just to put the wrong box back in

[wyodog]

Thanks, I will try and get out tomorrow and see if I can do that. The weather here is supposed to hold nice so can get some pics and run it without the link.

With taking the drag link off. You looking to see if it is providing any power assistance? Putting adding opposite pressure? Doing nothing? All of the above?

[carlotpilot]

9 minutes ago, wyodog said:

Thanks, I will try and get out tomorrow and see if I can do that. The weather here is supposed to hold nice so can get some pics and run it without the link.

With taking the drag link off. You looking to see if it is providing any power assistance? Putting adding opposite pressure? Doing nothing? All of the above?

pretty much all          is that  a power box??

Edited January 8, 2018 by carlotpilot

[wyodog]

Yep, it's a power box, with a belt driven pump.

[carlotpilot]

20 minutes ago, wyodog said:

Yep, it's a power box, with a belt driven pump.

ouch   retrofit    well anyway if and i say if  it was put in there with the motor in the truck there has to be a way for it to come back out    have you checked the mack museum to see if it was built with power steering?

Edited January 8, 2018 by carlotpilot

[Lmackattack]

would need to see better pics of the box on the truck.... the R model engine and frame is basically the same as a B model, both have flared rails up front. I would think the R model box would bolt onto the frame with drilling a few holes and without needing to remove or lift the engine.

You say the PS is powered from a belt/pully. most R models I have driven had the pump mounted to the back of the compressor.

[Swishy]

FWIW

<1> Jack front end up to get sum daylight under the front wheels turn steering full lock left n right with out engine running ..... dose it feel any different

<2> do the same above with engine running

<3>  Guessin the last time the box was disassembled  the left to right hyd assist brain has been put back rong making it hard to tune left

 

Sorry ............. Just think n out loud              

cya

§wishy

[Freightrain]

My guess, and I'm no power steering expert.....seems like the spool valve or whatever controls the fluid is stuck or at least not moving for left hand turns.  Thus making it impossible to turn left.

With the engine off, does it turn hard both ways?  The same effort as left turn WITH the engine running?

I think Tom, Fuzzy Buzzard, just put Shepard on his wrecker last year when he put a 237 in it.  Might be something he could assist with?

[fuzzy buzzard]

From the numbers on the cap - you have a Sheppard 49 box out of a B-53. I put one of these in my ole draggin wagon last year. I am interested to hear how it does with drag link un hooked with engine off. Also with drag link hooked up , engine off and wheels off ground. My steering has full power when warm but in cooler weather it will not turn either way unless I let engine run for while to warm things up. So maybe try letting it run for a while to warm up.

The Sheppard Manual shows 3 causes for hard steering in one direction:

1. Broken reversing springs in steering gear

2. Metal or foreign material in relief ball seat in piston of steering gear

3. Foreign material in relief valve

Sheppard kit # for upper seal and handful of other parts that don't fit a 49 box is 2351251K

I would be very interested in some pictures of your drag link. Mine will not steer as far left as it does right due to interference between brake chamber and drag link. That sounds simple to fix BUT if I kink the drag link any more, the ball joint on pitman arm end will be scrubbing edge of pitman arm.

Keep us posted on your progress! And one other question that is bugging me --- Your truck is a B55 ?????????????? Production records show B50, 53, 57 but not 55. What is serial number from right side frame rail ?

 

Over & out from Ignorant Ridge

Tom 

 

 

[wyodog]

Hey Tom --

Good catch on the B55. This is my mistake, and I keep making the typo everywhere. The Truck is a Mak B-53. The reason I keep doing the typo of B-55 is that was the truck number from the concrete company. B-55 is just stuck in my head cause all the paperwork, the original numbering on the truck was B-55. Sorry for the confusion there. I now see I made the same typo in my profile as well....

--Josh

[fuzzy buzzard]

Since this is a B-53, forget pictures of drag link.  B-53s did not use a corporate front axle so I'm out of luck there. B-53s used Sheppard 49 integral power steering with the pump mounted on back of air compressor (I think). There should be a u-joint connecting steer box to steer column. Box can not be removed from inside of frame with engine in place BUT remove inside cover and pitman arm - shaft can be pushed toward engine. Pull steer column, pull or cut out enough floor to get to top of steer box. Remove u-joint, pull top off and pull guts out of box to free up valves.

I've been talking with Carl Cook about your problem (remember I have similar problem when cold) and he has experienced same problems with Sheppard boxes till they get warmed up. Don't know what temperatures you are dealing with but before ripping the box apart, think I would get into some good heat for a while and see what happens.

 

Over & out from Ignorant Ridge

Tom

[fuzzy buzzard]

Just had a mental fit - B-53 boxes have an additional bracket bolted to box which puts box closer to engine. There may not be enough room to push shaft toward engine for the gear teeth to clear the guts that need to come out the top. Sorry about that - old people have short memories!

Over & out from Ignorant Ridge again!

Tom 

[davehummell]

I wonder? Could there be any water in the oil? That is a low point in the system maybe some settled in the box and can't get pushed out in the oil flow. I have a Kubota with a backhoe that the swing only works right until the oil warms up and the Kubota i had before had the same valve problems. ????? Crap like this will drive a person crazy Good luck

[Phase 1]

On 1/7/2018 at 10:48 PM, wyodog said:

When I restored the truck originally the steering box we knew had some issues. We pulled the worm gear out and have to sleeve it, and re-do the top seals. I remember before we tore the truck down, the steering while super leaky, had no issues steering. But pulling that worm gear/top section. It just never was right after that (doesn't leak anymore though...).

The first thought would have to be that somethihg with the sleeving or in the disassembly and reassembly that was done is causing the problem. If it was bored and sleeved possibly there is an alignment problem ?

[wyodog]

So let me be a bit more clear on the sleeving that was done. The steering input shaft into the box, the shaft itself had a pretty good groove on the sealing service. So where the bearing/seal was a grove was worn into the shaft, so I was able to just pull out the top section of the box and remove the input shaft. I had my machine shop lathe down the grove and we made a sleeve to ture up where the sealing surface was.

So i don't disagree that the assemble / disassembly is part of the problem. To remove the top section, you have to remove the top poppet adjustment screw. Once I reassembled everything I have never been able to get the poppet screws/adjustments correct. I have been fighting this problem for years and have tried many combinations of valve adjustments, etc.

[Phase 1]

You reported that you had been in contact with Sheppard about getting parts. Did you ask them about a solution to the problem you have? They may have customer service/technical help people who could go through setting it/troubleshooting it with you.  Or try googling to find a business that does repair/rebuilding of steering boxes and contact them and ask about it. Explain that you cannot remove the box. They may or may not be willing to help but it does not hurt to ask.

[fuzzy buzzard]

The "poppet adjustment screws" adjust how far the steering wheel can be turned either direction with "power". These screws adjust the point where the hydraulic pressure is dumped to return flow. In order for the screw to dump pressure in a left turn, the screw would have to be in as far  as it can go - and I still don't think it is long enough to stop any left turn.  BUT - if the box is not centered when wheels are straight ahead - I guess this could be possible. When you pulled the truck into the new building with a right turn, were you able to straighten the wheels up with power steering to the straight ahead position? Or did you have to "popeye" it back to straight ahead. If no power back from extreme right to center position - my guess would be a sticking valve in box (the part the worm screws into). If power back from extreme right to center and then no power on to the left - my guess would be the upper "poppet adjustment screw" is hitting too soon and dumping hydraulic pressure to return.

We have had 3 weeks of cool weather, around zero in mornings. I needed to get the dozer out from behind the B model in shed but not bad enough to fire up the B. Had couple days of 50's last week so I fired up the old "draggin wagon". Soon as air was up, I started moving out of shed - no power steering either way for about 50'. I didn't pulled very hard on wheel either way, then I felt a pop - and I had power right and left. This was not the first time it has pulled this stunt. The power steering pump is a vane pump running off rear of air compressor. Vanes in pump may be sticking on a cold start or control valve in steering box may be sticking. But nothing else on this hill works right so I ain't going to fight this battle till I lose power steering completely.

Over & Out from Ignorant Ridge - the "Sharia Free Zone"

Tom