Truck Shop Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, theakerstwo said: The single cylinder compressor is timed to a cummins engine.Not many guys know it and i dont know if it matters but look at a shop manual I knew you would come back with something to say about my post, you always do. But the single cylinder compressors don't run any smoother timed or un-timed. And yes I knew that. 1 Quote One ping only Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
theakerstwo Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Ok you knew that but i understood you to say they dont time so my mistake. Quote glenn akers Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
macks in nigeria Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Guys keep the testosterone aside and help a man in need. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post turckster Posted March 23, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2018 8 hours ago, 41chevy said: Since this started after the hit and the shop seems to have been less than decent with the collision repairs. Is it possible that the engine / trans assembly misaligned because of the hit and when the trans was removed for the clutch it went back in misaligned? Now that asked would loosening the engine and trans mounts allow any misalignment to some what correct and misalignment? Or am I just off on my thoughts With the clutch unbolted and slightly pulled back, if the vibration disappears the the next step is to pull the trans. The issue could be a misalignment issue or wear. Check bellhousing to flywheel housing mating surfaces for obvious wear/damage, dial indicate for out of round flywheel housing. These pictures are an example of a bad trans bellhousing mating surface.... not good 3 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Hey guys sorry was out cleaning snow for past couple days. I’m gonna have the clutch unbolted and check again. I did that about 5 months ago and listened to the motor and me and the mechanic both agreed the vibration must be coming from the clutch/transmission . That’s why I installed the 3rd clutch and then after that the transmission. Is it possible that if the flywheel is the culprit you won’t really feel the vibration as bad if the clutch is not bolted to it? And then once the clutch is attached I start to hear/feel the vibration and chatter from the clutch which ends up messing up the clutch. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 On 3/21/2018 at 3:52 PM, mrsmackpaul said: On a Crummins I know the compressor has to be timed with number 1 at TDC so the the compressor hits TDC at the same time as number 1 does and I have been told this is needed to make it run smoother This wouldnt explain the un even ware on the clutch and to my thinking there could only be a few things that would cause uneven ware When it is said that the clutch wares unevenly in what way does it ware unevevly ???? is there a photo of crook the crook clutch ???? Also I seem to recall reading on here it was miss firing for some time with crook injectors ???? this causes the motor to run out of balance, I hope it wasnt run for long like this as may have damaged something in the motor Does this type of motor have balancers spinning and timed internally or just a harmonic balancer on the front ( never worked on a E7 so no idea ) Paul I don’t have any pictures but when the clutch was showed to me, if you look at the friction pads you would see that only 40-50% of the pad had wear on it and the rest of the pad still looked new. Then the mechanic told me I should be able to slide a feeler gauge between the friction plates and intermediate plate and there was a zero gap. Now I don’t really know the real specifics of this because it has been a learning experience for me but I would think the way that the pads aren’t getting full surface contact would mean something is off balance or off alignment. I don’t know. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 6 hours ago, turckster said: With the clutch unbolted and slightly pulled back, if the vibration disappears the the next step is to pull the trans. The issue could be a misalignment issue or wear. Check bellhousing to flywheel housing mating surfaces for obvious wear/damage, dial indicate for out of round flywheel housing. These pictures are an example of a bad trans bellhousing mating surface.... not good I think I’m going to have to find a new shop because I really don’t think he’s going to even do all that for me anymore. IT really pisses me off that I paid all this money to three shops and the problem persists. Now I’m gonna have to pay for stuff all over again. And who knows if the problem will be solved. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 12 hours ago, Truck Shop said: One item that should be showing wear if the input shaft is out of alignment is the nose dowel on the input shaft. If it has wear every time you clutch it the driving discs will be off center. IMO When I put the 2nd clutch in I replaced the input shaft and input shaft bearing. The shaft had no damage but I replaced it anyway. The bearing may have been on its way out that’s why I replaced it with the updated new type of bearing... then when I did the tranny a couple months ago that was a new input shaft and bearing again. Problem still there 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truck Shop Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 On 3/12/2018 at 4:55 PM, Truck Shop said: The only thing I can add to this is a strange-odd issue I ran across years ago with a similar problem. Had a K100 KW with a Detroit 8V92 that had a clutch changed out by another shop before it landed on our door step. Found the bell housing bolts were bottomed out but the bolts and washers were right up to the flat surface in the bolt pockets on the bell and really no gap. But the bell was moving ever so slightly. Probably not your problem on this issue but thought I would bring it up. Truck Shop Those pictures above are a great example of a loose bell to restructure and what happens to the bell. There is no way you can keep alignment when that occurs. Quote One ping only Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 3 hours ago, RobM626 said: Hey guys sorry was out cleaning snow for past couple days. I’m gonna have the clutch unbolted and check again. I did that about 5 months ago and listened to the motor and me and the mechanic both agreed the vibration must be coming from the clutch/transmission . That’s why I installed the 3rd clutch and then after that the transmission. Is it possible that if the flywheel is the culprit you won’t really feel the vibration as bad if the clutch is not bolted to it? And then once the clutch is attached I start to hear/feel the vibration and chatter from the clutch which ends up messing up the clutch. In my mind the more weight you add to an already out of balance situation the worse it is likly to get! even if the weight is balanced its self! you could try un bolting the clutch and turning it 180 on the wheel and re attach it ! see if it changes the situation Don't know if We asked this question DID YOU HAVE THE FLYWHWEEL resurfaced? If you have not owned the truck since new then you would not have a clue If you have then you should have record of this being done! I have seen instances where 60 thou had to come off the surface to make em flat again thats a fare jag of meat that could potentially throw things out of balance at 7 plus inches from the centre line of the crank grams count! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Flywheel was resurfaced like 3-4 times in the past year and a half. We have had the truck since new ... I’m sure it was resurfaced a couple more times in the 16 years before that.. I told every mechanic maybe I should change the flywheel they kept saying I can just resurface it it’s fine... now to really check this out I’m gonna have to go to another shop and pay the $1500 or so to have them drop the tranny and who knows whatever else. Then Everytime I go to a different shop they always find something else wrong that the shop before did and I end up paying for those mistakes. It seems like Everytime I go to a new shop they’re so quick to point out other people’s mistakes but they can never live up to their own. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Another note on the flywheel. When I had the second clutch put it they put like a spacer which looked like a second clutch brake. I personally never saw that before and wondered about it. Why would you need to put that spacer if the flywheel was in spec? That makes me think too much material was taken off the flywheel. Then the next mechanic took the spacer out and didn’t use one. He told me it was in spec... I don’t know who to believe anymore Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 Each time you grind a flywheel you remove facing or friction surface. The allows the clutches to ride deeper, (bowl type flywheel) and increases the distance the clutch brake has to travel and it can lose it's effectiveness not being allowed to apply with full pressure due to this increased travel distance. The "shim" is installed to bring this clearance back to somewhat normal for the clutch brake to travel or compress. A flywheel surfaced that many time is probably best replaced. 2 Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Rob said: Each time you grind a flywheel you remove facing or friction surface. The allows the clutches to ride deeper, (bowl type flywheel) and increases the distance the clutch brake has to travel and it can lose it's effectiveness not being allowed to apply with full pressure due to this increased travel distance. The "shim" is installed to bring this clearance back to somewhat normal for the clutch brake to travel or compress. A flywheel surfaced that many time is probably best replaced. I agree... I asked for it to be replaced twice . I guess they thought they knew better than me Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, RobM626 said: I agree... I asked for it to be replaced twice . I guess they thought they knew better than me The flywheel gets hot from normal usage. It is probably warped slightly and this translates into vibration. If the case it wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rob said: The flywheel gets hot from normal usage. It is probably warped slightly and this translates into vibration. If the case it wouldn't be the first time I've seen it. On the etech Does the crank position sensor get its reading from the 2 notches on the flywheel? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 The E-7 series of engine is out of my area of expertise electronically. I really never worked with them as they are newer than my involvement with trucks. Quote Plodding along with no job nor practical application for my existence, but still trying to fix what's broke. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 Just now, Rob said: The E-7 series of engine is out of my area of expertise electronically. I really never worked with them as they are newer than my involvement with trucks. Gotchya Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 ECU will calculate using the flywheel sensor and the one up on right front of the engine near the breather outlet. Two sensors allows it to think redundantly when one fails. It will code if the two signals don't match, or usually when you collect enough clutch metal on the magnetic tip of the flywheel sensor. Might pull the flywheel sensor and see if it was damaged during clutch installation? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Mack Technician said: ECU will calculate using the flywheel sensor and the one up on right front of the engine near the breather outlet. Two sensors allows it to think redundantly when one fails. It will code if the two signals don't match, or usually when you collect enough clutch metal on the magnetic tip of the flywheel sensor. Might pull the flywheel sensor and see if it was damaged during clutch installation? I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmackpaul Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 9 hours ago, RobM626 said: I don’t have any pictures but when the clutch was showed to me, if you look at the friction pads you would see that only 40-50% of the pad had wear on it and the rest of the pad still looked new. Then the mechanic told me I should be able to slide a feeler gauge between the friction plates and intermediate plate and there was a zero gap. Now I don’t really know the real specifics of this because it has been a learning experience for me but I would think the way that the pads aren’t getting full surface contact would mean something is off balance or off alignment. I don’t know. Were the pads only worn on the out side or only on the inside ??? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Technician Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, RobM626 said: I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle. sensor (ECU) is the master, engine is the slave, in this case I don't think slave can control masters ability to calculate. Long as sensors are functional, properly set at front timing gap and not tripping a code.....all is well (theoretically). Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
macks in nigeria Posted March 23, 2018 Share Posted March 23, 2018 3 hours ago, RobM626 said: I just replaced both sensors last week... the one near flywheel had a ton of metal shavings on it. Reason I’m asking is if the flywheel wasn’t running smooth would it throw off the reading of the sensor and make the motor stumble a little when returning to idle? When the rpm gets to like 900 it studders like 3 times before reaching idle. For all the work you have done on this truck Mack should owe you some money for the research you have done on their behalf.This should be a case study.The culprit might eventually be a $500 fix. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 2 hours ago, mrsmackpaul said: Were the pads only worn on the out side or only on the inside ??? I I believe it was the inside... the last time I saw it was July but I’m pretty sure it was inside Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM626 Posted March 23, 2018 Author Share Posted March 23, 2018 39 minutes ago, macks in nigeria said: For all the work you have done on this truck Mack should owe you some money for the research you have done on their behalf.This should be a case study.The culprit might eventually be a $500 fix. Haha. That would be something huh? I would be so happy if the fix was a 3 digit number. All of my bills were either 4 or 5 digit numbers Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/52659-vibration-that-2-mechanics-and-mack-dealer-can%E2%80%99t-figure-out/page/7/#findComment-394915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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