E9 questions

[Landon]

I bought a cl713 1999 with a e9 and a 18 speed. It has a vibration at higher rpm from 1300 and up. It does it with it clutched or not. It seems to fall on it's face above 1300 rpm and smokes a ton threw all rpm range, especially in the low rpm. Is there anything I need to be looking for? I'm used to running a b model cat. So this engine is foreign to me. I tried to search but didn't come up with much. 

Thanks

Edited May 31, 2018 by Landon

[carlotpilot]

landon    i`m no expert on e9s but what you `re describing sounds like a fairly serious problem if i were you i would`nt run it much until i found the cause

[Landon]

I'm not using it yet. The vibration didn't seem to show up until 2 hours into the drive home with it. I figured it is serious.

[carlotpilot]

there are quite a few guys on here that own them i`m sure they will be offering advice very soon

[fjh]

What color is the smoke! ? this may help us trll you what is wrong!

[Landon]

Black

[Landon]

Black

[Hobert62]

Could it just be turbo?    Just an idea.   

[fjh]

aftercooler cracked or turbo or AIR FILTER ???

when you get home and after u check the air filter  make a plug for  the turbo out put side  disconnect the hose from the  turbo to the after cooler     put regulated air to it 30 psi to start should find any leak you need to worry about! sometimes  intake gaskets shit out as well this method will find ALL the leaks.

Note you may have to turn the engine a bit by hand to get the valves to close enough to build preasure!    MAKE SURE THE STOP IS PULL OUT!!!!!

THESSE ENGINES START EASY USUALLY!

Edited May 31, 2018 by fjh

[1965]

Could be injector tip; with the viberation & all.

[AZB755V8]

First check the air filter to see if clean. Does the truck have a boost gage? If not get a mechanical pressure gage up to 30-45psi from the hardware or part store and plumb it into one of several ports on the intake manifolds. At 1200-1800RPM's with a load on the pressure should be 15-18psi. E9's normally do not have more boost than that. If it does not get that high then check for intercooler leaks as stated before. If that checks OK them it is the turbo, head and piston or all three.

There can be a cylinder or 2 out before these engines really start to vibrate above 1200RPM's or so. I can say from experience that what you are describing an exhaust valve seat dropped and got chewed up. It is more common with the E9's than in most engines. The exhaust seats do not have a good press fit from the factory or Mack reman, and if run a little hot have a tendency to fall out. I went to the Macungie show a few years ago and dropped a valve seat 2000 miles from Phoenix AZ and drove it that way, home, smokin, low on power, waisted turbo from the seat pieces going through it. Still passing everything is sight and smokin out all along the way. That engine had reman heads with 18,000 miles on them.

If that all checks OK then start looking at the fuel pump and injectors.

Why did the the guy say he was selling the truck? How many miles on it or the rebuild? What is the idle RPM? Should be 650.

[fjh]

20 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

First check the air filter to see if clean. Does the truck have a boost gage? If not get a mechanical pressure gage up to 30-45psi from the hardware or part store and plumb it into one of several ports on the intake manifolds. At 1200-1800RPM's with a load on the pressure should be 15-18psi. E9's normally do not have more boost than that. If it does not get that high then check for intercooler leaks as stated before. If that checks OK them it is the turbo, head and piston or all three.

There can be a cylinder or 2 out before these engines really start to vibrate above 1200RPM's or so. I can say from experience that what you are describing an exhaust valve seat dropped and got chewed up. It is more common with the E9's than in most engines. The exhaust seats do not have a good press fit from the factory or Mack reman, and if run a little hot have a tendency to fall out. I went to the Macungie show a few years ago and dropped a valve seat 2000 miles from Phoenix AZ and drove it that way, home, smokin, low on power, waisted turbo from the seat pieces going through it. Still passing everything is sight and smokin out all along the way. That engine had reman heads with 18,000 miles on them.

If that all checks OK then start looking at the fuel pump and injectors.

Why did the the guy say he was selling the truck? How many miles on it or the rebuild? What is the idle RPM? Should be 650.

( Good call  V8  ) being an unknown truck if it has dropped a seat and been driven for some length of time the pounding sound will have gone  away and you end up with a miss rough running and smoke ! I Also had this happen !  bad news is if this is the issue your repairs will likley include Minimum  At least  1  piston  a head maybe a liner or two and a turbo aint goin to be a cheap fix these days !

Let us know what ya find!

 

[Landon]

It builds good boost pressure, after i repaired the massive exhaust leaks. Someone before me has been messing around with the injection pump. I bought it from a dealer. The previous owner died and the dealer repossessed all his trucks. Would there be blow by if it dropped a seat? It idles extremely smooth. 

[AZB755V8]

5 hours ago, Landon said:

It builds good boost pressure, after i repaired the massive exhaust leaks. Someone before me has been messing around with the injection pump. I bought it from a dealer. The previous owner died and the dealer repossessed all his trucks. Would there be blow by if it dropped a seat? It idles extremely smooth. 

Just from what you are saying before and now, it is difficult to help you. Is it still smoking as much after the exhaust leak fix? If someone has been messing with the pump it is anyone's guess on fueling and how hot it was run and for how long. Blow by is due to bad piston rings and, or pistons mainly so the engine may be loose to begin with and needs a lot of work. Blow by is not due to a bad valve. I asked the idle RPM and you say it has a smooth idle. The differences between a cylinder out is 50RPM at idle. It will be a smooth idle even running on 7 of 8 cylinders.

Who knows what was done to the truck when a dead man can't talk?  There are just not that many guys around any more that know much about these E9's as they stopped making them 20 years ago. My local Mack dealer doesn't even have a Tech to work on an E9, don't think there is one in the entire state. I am the only guy to get parts for one in the last 10 years from Mack in Phoenix.

 

[Landon]

Sorry idle rpm is 650 ish. I wasn't sure if a bad valve would cause blow by, I was hoping it was a symptom because it has no blow by.  It still smokes black hard after the exhaust leak fix. 

[Phase 1]

Have you asked the dealer? If the guy owed them money, they probably did service work on the truck. They may have all the service records and someone there could have a good idea of what is wrong with the truck.

[Landon]

Dealer was in Dallas owner was in Shreveport. I asked her didn't do the work.

[RobM626]

12 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

Just from what you are saying before and now, it is difficult to help you. Is it still smoking as much after the exhaust leak fix? If someone has been messing with the pump it is anyone's guess on fueling and how hot it was run and for how long. Blow by is due to bad piston rings and, or pistons mainly so the engine may be loose to begin with and needs a lot of work. Blow by is not due to a bad valve. I asked the idle RPM and you say it has a smooth idle. The differences between a cylinder out is 50RPM at idle. It will be a smooth idle even running on 7 of 8 cylinders.

Who knows what was done to the truck when a dead man can't talk?  There are just not that many guys around any more that know much about these E9's as they stopped making them 20 years ago. My local Mack dealer doesn't even have a Tech to work on an E9, don't think there is one in the entire state. I am the only guy to get parts for one in the last 10 years from Mack in Phoenix.

 

Sorry to jack the thread, but what are some other places to look for causes of blow by besides piston rings?

i have no smoke from stack except for a little white/ light grey at the first start of the morning (little more on a cold day) and very very very little black if I push accelerator before the turbo really starts to push then it clears completely. I have no noticeable oil consumption and my oil samples always come back with no signs of problems

[AZB755V8]

Blow by is caused by an increase in crankcase pressure that is over atmospheric pressure. The only way to increase the crankcase pressure is by adding more (air) and having it escape out the breather or vent tube due to the pressure differential. The seal between the top of the piston (compression side) and the crankcase are the rings and cylinder walls. Scorched or scored walls or worn rings compromises the seal and the result is blow by. Even in some rebuilds the engine will have blow by and after break in decrease as parts seat or wear in. 

The white or light gray smoke at start up is normally from valve guide seals. Oil leaked down the valve steam during engine shut down and dripped down onto the piston and is burt off in the first minute or so after start up. It is incomplete combustion of the oil and fuel in the cylinders this is more noticeable at first start in cold weather. Until the engine builds a little heat the white smoke will remain, this is from fuel not oil from valve stem seals after the first minute of operation.

[RobM626]

4 hours ago, AZB755V8 said:

Blow by is caused by an increase in crankcase pressure that is over atmospheric pressure. The only way to increase the crankcase pressure is by adding more (air) and having it escape out the breather or vent tube due to the pressure differential. The seal between the top of the piston (compression side) and the crankcase are the rings and cylinder walls. Scorched or scored walls or worn rings compromises the seal and the result is blow by. Even in some rebuilds the engine will have blow by and after break in decrease as parts seat or wear in. 

The white or light gray smoke at start up is normally from valve guide seals. Oil leaked down the valve steam during engine shut down and dripped down onto the piston and is burt off in the first minute or so after start up. It is incomplete combustion of the oil and fuel in the cylinders this is more noticeable at first start in cold weather. Until the engine builds a little heat the white smoke will remain, this is from fuel not oil from valve stem seals after the first minute of operation.

Thank you for the info. Can the turbo seal cause blow by?

[AZB755V8]

18 minutes ago, RobM626 said:

Thank you for the info. Can the turbo seal cause blow by?

Most diesel turbos do not have oil seals. Most gasoline engines do have turbo oils seals. This is due to the the difference in operation principle. Diesels have no throttle butterfly to reduce air flow into the engine and basically run maximum airflow at all times. There is very little vacuum or negative pressure in the intake or turbo at idle. This negative pressure or vacuum will draw oil out of a non sealed turbo and be used as fuel in a diesel. Oil will enter the intake if the oil retune is blocked or the shaft or bearings are worn beyond limits. This is known as a run away, for two reasons, the engine will not stop until the air flow is cut off and run at catastrophic RPM's. Secondly you better run away as flying parts are eminent. 

There can be a small amount of pressurized turbo air that can enter the turbo housing and return to the crack case thought the oil return. This would only happen when the turbo was creating boost. The higher the boost the more air to the crack case.

In a gas engine there is 13-14psi of negative pressure at idle and that would suck oil from a non sealed turbo shaft. Different from a diesel that if oil is sucked into the intake it would foul spark plugs and airflow can be reduced by the throttle butterfly and the engine will stop.

One other issue, there can be a small amount of pressurized air entering the crank case though worn valve guides, both intake and exhaust, but this again would be when the turbo was adding boost to the engine and not at idle. 

[RobM626]

5 minutes ago, AZB755V8 said:

Most diesel turbos do not have oil seals. Most gasoline engines do have turbo oils seals. This is due to the the difference in operation principle. Diesels have no throttle butterfly to reduce air flow into the engine and basically run maximum airflow at all times. There is very little vacuum or negative pressure in the intake or turbo at idle. This negative pressure or vacuum will draw oil out of a non sealed turbo and be used as fuel in a diesel. Oil will enter the intake if the oil retune is blocked or the shaft or bearings are worn beyond limits. This is known as a run away, for two reasons, the engine will not stop until the air flow is cut off and run at catastrophic RPM's. Secondly you better run away as flying parts are eminent. 

There can be a small amount of pressurized turbo air that can enter the turbo housing and return to the crack case thought the oil return. This would only happen when the turbo was creating boost. The higher the boost the more air to the crack case.

In a gas engine there is 13-14psi of negative pressure at idle and that would suck oil from a non sealed turbo shaft. Different from a diesel that if oil is sucked into the intake it would foul spark plugs and airflow can be reduced by the throttle butterfly and the engine will stop.

One other issue, there can be a small amount of pressurized air entering the crank case though worn valve guides, both intake and exhaust, but this again would be when the turbo was adding boost to the engine and not at idle. 

Thank you for the detailed response. Much better understood