New Mack question?

[RobM626]

Hey guys. I think we’re going to sell 2 of our older units. An 05’ granite and the 2000 rd. Was seriously debating if getting into a new granite would be the best choice or should I go with a kenworth with a cummins. 

Is anyone on here running either the new common rail mp8 or the x15?

the truck is going to be a dump truck. Tri-axel. 90% city driving. Think of going with the Allison. What brand and ratio rears should I go with? 

Any other thoughts ?

[r686st]

I am following this seriously since I am in the Market too. I would be leaving a '94 DM and getting a granite with air ride. 50/50 road and offroad driving.

[Mack Technician]

It would be nice to have a fleet owner, with multiple OEM’s, dump some cost-per-hour/mile comparisons. 

[kscarbel2]

The Kenworth with an ISX12 and Allison transmission is popular for very good reasons.

[RobM626]

10 hours ago, kscarbel2 said:

The Kenworth with an ISX12 and Allison transmission is popular for very good reasons.

I hear the new x12 is supposed to be a good engine too. 

[kscarbel2]

5 minutes ago, RobM626 said:

I hear the new x12 is supposed to be a good engine too. 

I ideal balance of power, torque, fuel economy and weight. Twelve liters is all 95 percent of the market needs, and particularly in a dump (tipper) application.

Trucks are not cars......they were never intended to accelerate as quick as one. But matched with the Allison, the X12 will deliver impressive acceleration (for a truck) and fuel economy, with solid reliability and dependability.

Over the last five years, Kenworth has taken huge market share in the vocational segment with these trucks. Many satisfied customers can tell you why.

 

[RobM626]

12 hours ago, r686st said:

I am following this seriously since I am in the Market too. I would be leaving a '94 DM and getting a granite with air ride. 50/50 road and offroad driving.

Maybe I’m overthinking it but it’s a pretty tough decision to make. My local dealer is a Mack and Kenworth dealer. Mack parts are stocked a little better than the Kenworth stuff since it’s more of a component truck and so many more parts need to be stocked. 

But overall the big picture is reliability. I know every manufacturer has their problems but who stands behinds their products better? I’m going to be getting rid of 2 trucks and replacing it with one. So if something were to happen I wouldn’t have an extra truck as a back up like I do now.

[RobM626]

2 minutes ago, kscarbel2 said:

I ideal balance of power, torque, fuel economy and weight. Twelve liters is all 95 percent of the market needs, and particularly in a dump (tipper) application.

Trucks are not cars......they were never intended to accelerate as quick as one. But matched with the Allison, the X12 will deliver impressive acceleration (for a truck) and fuel economy, with solid reliability and dependability.

 

Yea I hear ya with the speed. I like to have the torque when I’m grossing 80-85000lbs though. Most of the time the 15 liter is not needed. And it’s probably the most expensive option on the truck. 

So how do you think the mp8 compares to the x12? What would you go with?

[RobM626]

12 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

It would be nice to have a fleet owner, with multiple OEM’s, dump some cost-per-hour/mile comparisons. 

That would be nice!

[kscarbel2]

Exactly, the "cost" of your engine choice is a factor. Pay up for what you need, but don't shoot past that point and pay extra for an excessively large engine you don't need, which is heavier (a detractor to possible payload) and thirstier (more money unnecessarily leaving your pocket).

I don't like the Volvo D13 (rebadged as Mack brand MP8). Most of all, I don't like the cheap Delphi fuel injection system, including the fact that it's a jury rig.....a common rail on their old unit pump injection architecture engine block.

The Bosch and Cummins-Scania XPI high pressure common rail fuel injection systems are the best in the business. Volvo's Delphi system is soooo bad.....they went with the low bidder.

The DD13 is a great engine, but that would mean buying a Western Star. That's more engine than you need, and I think the Kenworth, all factors considered, is a wiser investment with greater resale value (The Australian market Western Star product is top notch, but the US market sells a cheapened product).

If you like the aesthetics of the Peterbilt, you can get the same ISX12/Allision combination in their vocational models. And after touring their Denton, Texas plant, you'd be a Peterbilt loyalist.

[RobM626]

20 minutes ago, kscarbel2 said:

Exactly, the "cost" of your engine choice is a factor. Pay up for what you need, but don't shoot past that point and pay extra for an excessively large engine you don't need, which is heavier (a detractor to possible payload) and thirstier (more money unnecessarily leaving your pocket).

I don't like the Volvo D13 (rebadged as Mack brand MP8). Most of all, I don't like the cheap Delphi fuel injection system, including the fact that it's a jury rig.....a common rail on their old unit pump injection architecture engine block.

The Bosch and Cummins-Scania XPI high pressure common rail fuel injection systems are the best in the business. Volvo's Delphi system is soooo bad.....they went with the low bidder.

The DD13 is a great engine, but that would mean buying a Western Star. That's more engine than you need, and I think the Kenworth, all factors considered, is a wiser investment with greater resale value (The Australian market Western Star product is top notch, but the US market sells a cheapened product).

If you like the aesthetics of the Peterbilt, you can get the same ISX12/Allision combination in their vocational models. And after touring their Denton, Texas plant, you'd be a Peterbilt loyalist.

My sentiments exactly about the new mp8’s. It’s really a shame what Volvo did to Mack. 

I talked to a guy I know that sells western stars and he told me same thing. I like them but there’s not many dealers by me so parts would be an inconvenience.

the Peterbilts are probably my absolute favorite trucks. Geographically the dealer is about 45 mins away compared to 10mins for Mack/Kenworth.

i priced out the Kenworth, Peterbilt and Mack . They’re all within $10,000 of each other.those Allison’s are a pricey option. I think it’s like 20 grand for the Allison. I think it’s definately worth it though. For resale value, maintenance and longevity. It’s so hard to find a driver for a manual

[kscarbel2]

Sounds like you have a good understanding of the situation.

The all-encompassing goal is for you to be able to make money. The human nature aspect is choosing a brand you can like, and a model that has an aesthetic appearance that pleases you. You want to feel good about your purchase, when you look at the truck, and at the end of the month when you pay your bills.

In your application, the Allison is a wise investment.

[RobM626]

1 hour ago, kscarbel2 said:

Sounds like you have a good understanding of the situation.

The all-encompassing goal is for you to be able to make money. The human nature aspect is choosing a brand you can like, and a model that has an aesthetic appearance that pleases you. You want to feel good about your purchase, when you look at the truck, and at the end of the month when you pay your bills.

In your application, the Allison is a wise investment.

What do you think is a good rear ratio to run with the Allison. We made a big mistake with a volumetric mixer we have. We left the spec for the rears up to the dealer when we ordered in 2012. They put 3.76 I believe. That truck blew the rears 3 times. And Mack would not help us at all. I thought they were too high for the application. Then finally the 3rd time it happened I brought it to a different shop and they put 4. Something in and never had a problem since. The dealership put a real bad taste in our mouths after that. And that was like the 6th truck we bought from them

[kscarbel2]

Regarding rear axle ratios, the dealers have software for calculating the sweet spot for all engine/transmission combinations. KW's sales engineering department will weigh in too. Speak with a knowledgeable salesperson at your KW dealer.

[Bullheaded]

Unless your old trucks are really tired, I would not buy a new truck for city dump truck work. We had to because of the new Ontario government weight laws requiring us to switch to self equalizing air ride with steering lift axles. Makes it cost prohibitive to convert an old truck.

 

But my point being....we have ISX 600 and DD15 505 Detroit's. Running steady on the highway pulling the pony trailers at 140,000 pounds, not much issues.

 

When working construction in town as just a straight dump truck (80,000 gross) they do nothing but require parked regens (30 to 45 minutes burning 4.7 gallons of fuel.) And the constant glow of check engine and malfunction lights, and replaced NOX sensors.

In winter hauling snow, my DD15 can't make an 8 hour shift without calling for a parked regen.

Both trucks have 18 speed, 4.30 rears on 22.5 rubber.

 

I had thought about trying a new Mack, but the big contractor we hire to just bought a Mack dealership group, thus buying a bunch of new Mack dump trucks. The first three nights they were greeted with check engine lights, a shutdown requiring a tow, and parts falling off them.

[Bullheaded]

But the drivers love the M-Drive's. They say they are way better than the Eaton auto's but not quite as nice as the Allison's they replaced in their city dump truck application.

[Bullheaded]

The new trucks do excel in one area though. They have a wonderfully comfortable cab interior with all the comforts and luxury. So you will be really comfortable sitting waiting for the tow truck to come get you.

[RobM626]

45 minutes ago, Bullheaded said:

The new trucks do excel in one area though. They have a wonderfully comfortable cab interior with all the comforts and luxury. So you will be really comfortable sitting waiting for the tow truck to come get you.

😂... that was great... I know I’m well aware of the common issues with the new trucks. How much money should you keep throwing at an old truck though before it’s “enough”? Especially the 2000. Have between 40-50 grand invested in it and we still can’t get it running right. The 06 still has good life left in it but the longer I keep it the more money it’s gonna cost for maintenance and depreciation. And New York City is passing the laws about the steerable lift axels and emissions So I don’t wanna get caught with my pants around my ankles and 2 trucks I’m not gonna be able to use and probably take an even bigger hit on price when I sell. The accountant is also telling us to take advantage of the write off. 

Thanks for the input 

[Bullheaded]

That's the problem Rob. You don't want to get stuck with them when the axle laws make them unproductive. Then the resale value really goes to nothing on them. Another reason we have to keep new. Like with here, a non-SPIF lift axle will lower your allowable gross to the same as a tandem. And nobody will hire that.

Best advice I can tell you is get all the extended warranty you can get, and get on a 5 year trade cycle. That is when they really seem to start costing money, but you can still have 2 years of drivetrain warranty on them at that point which helps in resale.

And unlike the trucks of old, now you need to only get as much power as you need. No more big power to save fuel. You need them working hard and making heat in the engine and exhaust. I have winter fronts on as soon as the temp gets close to freezing. I've had them on for a month already.

Then there's always the option of deleting. But they are really looking for signs of it here. Even the dealers and they won't give you an annual safety if you are deleted. But many are still getting away with it. So depends on if you like gambling or not.

Only other thing I can tell you is the SCR/DPF catalysts were $1600 to replace in my Detroit versus $6800 for the ISX (Canadian prices here.) But I know a few guys that have the new X15 Cummins and they tell me Cummins has a very simplified emission system now with fewer sensors than anyone else? (what I was told but I have not done any hard research.)

[Bullheaded]

I talked to an engineer from Detroit at a big trucking industry trade show a couple years back. We talked about my issues with regens. His words of advice:

"Even though these new motors have lots of low end torque and we advertise running low RPM to save fuel........in you application forget about fuel economy and drive it like you stole it like an old two stroke."

[RobM626]

11 hours ago, Bullheaded said:

That's the problem Rob. You don't want to get stuck with them when the axle laws make them unproductive. Then the resale value really goes to nothing on them. Another reason we have to keep new. Like with here, a non-SPIF lift axle will lower your allowable gross to the same as a tandem. And nobody will hire that.

Best advice I can tell you is get all the extended warranty you can get, and get on a 5 year trade cycle. That is when they really seem to start costing money, but you can still have 2 years of drivetrain warranty on them at that point which helps in resale.

And unlike the trucks of old, now you need to only get as much power as you need. No more big power to save fuel. You need them working hard and making heat in the engine and exhaust. I have winter fronts on as soon as the temp gets close to freezing. I've had them on for a month already.

Then there's always the option of deleting. But they are really looking for signs of it here. Even the dealers and they won't give you an annual safety if you are deleted. But many are still getting away with it. So depends on if you like gambling or not.

Only other thing I can tell you is the SCR/DPF catalysts were $1600 to replace in my Detroit versus $6800 for the ISX (Canadian prices here.) But I know a few guys that have the new X15 Cummins and they tell me Cummins has a very simplified emission system now with fewer sensors than anyone else? (what I was told but I have not done any hard research.)

I really think 5 years is the number these days... a few guys around here always buy new trucks and get rid of them in 4-5 years. Free warranty is up and before you start putting major money into it. 

Ive been researching deleting for a few years now and can’t get myself over the edge to do it. Who knows maybe one day.

i heard a lot of good things about the Detroit’s and also the x series cummins. They’ve been doing a lot of r&d these past 10 years and I think it shows in the product. 

[RobM626]

11 hours ago, Bullheaded said:

I talked to an engineer from Detroit at a big trucking industry trade show a couple years back. We talked about my issues with regens. His words of advice:

"Even though these new motors have lots of low end torque and we advertise running low RPM to save fuel........in you application forget about fuel economy and drive it like you stole it like an old two stroke."

Kinda makes sense. No heat= no regen. Then you have all the other bullshit that goes along with your emissions system. Lights ,codes, sensors, having to do forced regens because truck won’t do it on its own.

Thanks  for all your help man. Appreciate it

[Dirtymilkman]

Idling is the very worst thing you can do to your after treatment system. 

[1965]

What about 1 of those Fitzgerald gliders 

[RobM626]

3 hours ago, Dirtymilkman said:

Idling is the very worst thing you can do to your after treatment system. 

I know... the dump trucks we don’t really idle but the concrete trucks are running 8-10 hrs a day. There’s no avoiding it